Hi. I'm new here, and honestly really new to designing rpgs. My friend and I have been working on this idea for years now, and its shown up a few times here. But lately I decided it was my baby and I was going to remake it from scratch. The game itself aside, I have a general setting, character creation, skills and skill tests, including combat basically worked out, i just keep seeing it as a collection of ideas and not a whole, and really im just looking for advice on how to make it all stick together. If you want me to ill post up a summary of it all. Really im just plain lost... help me...

You'll get this response from a lot of people around here...but it basically boils down to a few simple questions.

What do you want your game to do?

What you you want the players to get out of the game? What do you want the characters to feel within the game?

Do you want the characters to drive the action (exploring their world from within)? Do you want the players to drive the action (through co-cooperatively telling a story or competitively trying to complete an agenda)?

These questions can be expanded out with a Power 19 to really get your thoughts firing...

Once you've got these concepts figured out, start thinking to yourself abut how each of the games elements directly links to the game's core values.

How does the setting reinforce these notions? How does the character creation system? How do skills and tests reinforce the concepts? etc. The Power 19 actually covers most of these.

There are certainly other ways to do it, but I've found this one helpful.

Anyway...Welcome to the Forge.

V

From what I've seen done, Nuthael, now is the time to playtest the game. And why don't you share some of it up here? You probably need constructive criticism more than ever.

What was the original mystery you were trying to get at in writing the game, assuming you'd say you were trying to get at one?

Ok, I've given it some thought, and this is what I've come up with:

The Gentleman's Game is a role play about mercenaries in a political war. It is set on an island surrounded on all sides by a mystical fog which stops all meckanics from functioning, which essentially isolates the inhabitants from the entire outside world. Since the island is so small, they are beginning to run out of space. It began as sporadic disputes between neighbours about boundary lines, who eventually sent their servants to the border to wage war over small plots of land. This was years ago, and by now the island is ruled over by 6 different men, each one differing in political and life views, and unwilling to settle for ownership of one sixth of the land. The battles are less open now and tend more towards assassination and sabotage, but they are still there. Thats where the player comes in. You play as the son of a rich family, sent to school with a lump sum of cash and expected to earn it back by being a famous soldier. In game characters are hired by various political parties or families to undertake acts of a questionable nature. Generally the hirer doesnt care how these are done, as long as you maintain honour and not mention who it was that hired you.

In game this is all reflected by, first of all, having you start character creation with a blank character sheet and a bunch of money to spend. You do this by buying classes and tutorship and gaining skills, attributes, and status. As you can buy anything from anyone, there are no penalties for crossing to other classes for skills. In this way I have been able to make each class specific and specialised. For example, Engineers have ONLY skills which aid in the creation of meckanics, and Rogues have ONLY skills that help them lie, cheat and steal.

Eventually, characters will gain enough money or use their fame (represented in-game as Renown) to gain more skills and upgrade old ones, which leads us to the eventual realisation that this entire charade of courage subterfuge and politics is really nothing more than the players trying to get as rich and powerful as possible. This is further represented in game through Status, which i mentioned in passing earlier. Status consists of three statistics, which are bought in a similar way to skills. They are: Profession (Helps you get money), Bureaucrat (Raises you higher in the official government), and Underground (Lets you get information from the underbelly of the city).

So essentially, each game session is a new job (or a job could last multible sessions) and the eventual objective is to become the rulers of the 'world' and begin your own wars or try to obtain peace.

What do you think?

I'm intrigued by the character sheet starting out blank - been considering using something like that myself. It could make character creation a more direct part of play, instead of something you do in "pre-play"; from the perspective of a Simulationist agenda, anything at all to do with the Dream of the game is still part of play for the players - the way that player advancement is tallied, post-session, how characters are created, etc.
From a storytelling perspective, a blank character sheet is like having to establish through play what the character is about: you see an episode of Buffy and you don't necessarily know what Willow is capable of, but once she starts casting spells and being perky-yet-twee, now you know what she's on about, and can make assumptions.

This sort of thing might not work so well in games designed for "niche" characters, as people might feel like they've been picked last in softball if they don't get to jump in early enough and choose the role they wanted, but so long as that's not how things are divided (i.e. it's really important to have a Thief, a Healer, etc.), then you shouldn't have any boundaries to doing that. Well, actually one boundary comes to mind - this would also need to be a super low-prep game as far as the GM is concerned, but I can see each "move" the players make providing fodder in this regard. A game where there's a certain, general "kind" of character to be expected, such as Greek heroes, 20th century American police officers, American Revolutionary-era soldiers, whatever, would make life a little easier, too.

God, can you imagine playing something like Rifts in this way?

Anyway, to get back to your idea, Nuthael, how far do you plan on going with that blank character sheet idea? It sounds awesome!

Abkajud wrote:
God, can you imagine playing something like Rifts in this way?

yeah im trying to work out a way to let people specialise, so far all i have is that the higher levels of skills increse in cost exponentially, so you really have to either specialise or play for a really long time to become adept at something.

And Abkajud, the character sheet consists of name, status and attributes. The rest is empty for the use of skills, inventory and any descriptive stuff the player wants to write. I'm looking at also having the appearance of the character play an important part in the gameplay, because it is a highly political game, and if you look like a certain kind of person, other people who look like that are going to be more willing to listen to you.

Now, another thing i would like critiqued is the skill test / combat resolution system im thinking of. Its pretty simple, roll a number of d10s equal to attribute + skill. 8, 9, 10 is a success, 1, 2, 3 is a failure. minus the failures from the successes, and if the left over successes equals some GM declared number, you succeed. combat is a little different. similar roll, except its your Might + Finesse minus their Finesse + Dodge and roll. 8, 9, 10, they lose one health, 1, 2, 3, you lose one health. but before every strike you roll Intimidation, and if you roll more successes than their Courage they run. I was then going to implement an equipment modifier system that can allow for some dice to succeed on lower numbers, or fail on higher ones, or modifiers that simply add certain dice to the pool.

Nuthael wrote:
Its pretty simple, roll a number of d10s equal to attribute + skill. 8, 9, 10 is a success, 1, 2, 3 is a failure. minus the failures from the successes, and if the left over successes equals some GM declared number, you succeed.

Vulpinoid wrote:
here's just no point to character improvement in such a set up.

Ok...

Well ive been looking at something else as well, just wasnt sure just how viable it was. I was going to have the 4 - 7 range as a kinda failure shield in that while failures reduce successes, mid-range scores reduce failures.

The other way I was looking at things before I had this whole idea was a dice pool of the attribute, and rolling successes above the difference between the attribute and the skill.

Which of these would be more appropriate to implement do you think?

btw, thanks for being brutal, i needed it. too much positive reinforcement lately

This last die mechanism is a bit more interesting...You should check out the die mechanism that Seth is using for his Gears and Cogs. It has a similar kind of cancellation factor for different die results.

The fundamental difference is that you're using d10s, and he uses d6s. You seem to be suggesting that mid rank dice cancel out low ranked dice, and remaining low ranked dice cancel out high ranked dice. He suggests that low ranked dice cancel mid ranked dice, and the remaining mid ranked dice cancel the high ranked dice. Semantically very similar systems.

I think I see where you're heading with the second mechanism described, there's something about it that strikes me as wrong, but I can't pick it just yet. I'll run a couple of simulations and get back to you shortly.

Again, just ideas...

V

ok, well ive playerd around with it a bit, and this is what I came up with; Player rolls a dice pool equal to his attribute, GM declares a difficulty for the action, player needs successes equal to or more than the difference between the difficulty and his skill, to a minimum of 1. (Which means you always have to roll, and if you end up with no successes you dont complete the action). 8, 9, 10 are successes, 1, 2 are failures, and everything else for every two mid range dice, remove one failure. so you have a 30% chance of a success, 20% of failure, and 25% of ignoring a failure.

My power 19:

1.) What is your game about?
Children of disadvantaged families seeking fame and fortune
2.) What do the characters do?
Work odd jobs for various politicians
3.) What do the players (including the GM if there is one) do?
Manoeuvre their character into better favour than everyone else
4.) How does your setting (or lack thereof) reinforce what your game is about?
It is set on a small island with many feuding families, so you are one of many vieing for prestige
5.) How does the Character Creation of your game reinforce what your game is about?
You start off with a lump sum of money and you buy all attributes, skills and social status, reinforcing the necessity and importance of money in the game
6.) What types of behaviors/styles of play does your game reward (and punish if necessary)?
Generally working for the advancement for the party, but secretly seeking personal advancement, usually through means that disadvantages your party members
7.) How are behaviors and styles of play rewarded or punished in your game?
The character that seems to have done the most towards achieving the party goal gets paid more
8.) How are the responsibilities of narration and credibility divided in your game?
The players shape the story, and the GM gives them the beginning and comes up with the best answers to what the players do
9.) What does your game do to command the players' attention, engagement, and participation? (i.e. What does the game do to make them care?)
It ranges between fast paced action packed wars to bureaucratic negotiations and assassination attempts. It also keeps people wondering what side they're really on, and questions the morality of some things that they are hired to do.
10.) What are the resolution mechanics of your game like?
Dice used are determined by the attributes, and the dice pool is determined by the skill.
11.) How do the resolution mechanics reinforce what your game is about?
You have a chance to pull it off from sheer luck, but if you dont put the money in, you're probably not going to make it
12.) Do characters in your game advance? If so, how?
Yes, they buy training in various skills.
13.) How does the character advancement (or lack thereof) reinforce what your game is about?
The further along you get, the more money you'll have to spend to advance.
14.) What sort of product or effect do you want your game to produce in or for the players?
I want it to be an honestly fun experience where you can finally stab the person you hate in the back and get rich while doing it. It's meant to be a detachment from reality, not an enhancement of it
15.) What areas of your game receive extra attention and color? Why?
The entire political setup of the island, alongside the trade routes, monopolies and guilds. This is about money and popularity. It's about politics
16.) Which part of your game are you most excited about or interested in? Why?
The potential for non-adventuring battle scene sessions. The same system allows for assassination and engineering intuitiveness.
17.) Where does your game take the players that other games can’t, don’t, or won’t?
First of all a class system with no boundaries, and secret actions that alter the adventure without anyone knowing.
18.) What are your publishing goals for your game?
I hope to distribute this generally online for a marginal profit. I just want people to be able to enjoy what ive worked so hard for.
19.) Who is your target audience?
Young adults. It takes a certain amount of immaturity and callousness to stab someone in the back so readily, but enough wit and intelligence that it shouldn't appeal so much to a younger crowd

Also, ive thought of a new system. At character creation the player assigns priority to each of the attribute groups. This labels them with a certain type of dice. The highest gets d20, middle d10, and low d6. As each attribute is a correlation between a major and minor attribute group, each gets the dice of the major, and one step down from the minor. for example, a character might have physical d20, mental d10 and social d6. This means they have:

Might (Physical + Physical) d20 + d10
Finesse (Physical + Mental) d20 + d6
Leadership (Physical + Social) d20 + d3

Intellect (Mental + Mental) d10 + d6
Creativity (Mental + Physical) d10 + d10
Teamwork (Mental + Social) d10 + d3

Magnetism (Social + Social) d6 + d3
Intimidation (Social + Physical) d6 + d10
Manipulation (Social + Mental) d6 + d6

When the player needs to roll for an action, they roll the dice of the appropriate attribute and a dice pool of the appropriate skill, divided evenly between the two (odd numbers get one extra to the major) and compares the result to a GM supplied difficulty. This can also then be used in combat.

Thoughts?

Stop with the talk about dice mechanics, Baby Jesus weeps for your game.

You've got to decide what your game is about and design real mechanics (not dice rolls) that reinforce that.

Political war, what does that mean?
Mercenaries, you can be hired. Which means that money and loyalty have to be significant parts of the game. They have to mean something.

There's just no way your character is a blank slate. The setting you've developed is too insular -- pardon the pun.

The island is ruled by six factions, there's no neutral territory. That means everyone is a party to one faction or another. Shouldn't your faction have some effect on your character creation? On his loyalties? On his enemies?

Why are battles less open now? Why is there no full scale war? This is part of the culture. Make it good. "Just because" is a crap reason. First thing I would do in your setting is quietly raise an army and wipe out all the other idiots who don't have armies. Crown me Pasha, thank you. This goes doubly because you then say that employers don't care about the method of accomplishment for the missions. This seems implausible if there really is a culture of subtlety, fame and status. I suspect how you do things is probably more important than the result.

Shouldn't your family and it's loyalties have some effect on your character? Shouldn't your father and mother have some effect on your character? Uncles? Aunts? Brothers? Sisters?

You go to school. How about your instructors? Classmates? Rivals?

Why classes? How do classes jibe with a blank slate? How do character classes simulate receiving instruction from your family, school and employers?

Don't use D&D (or Palladium) as your model. Design your own game. Make rules that are important for your game, that make sense in your setting. YOU have a clean slate on which to design, there's no need to constrain yourself with ill-fitting mechanics.

-L

Ok. No more little dice rolling around.

I've been throwing around most of the stuff that you said in my head recently, because it just didnt feel right.

By political war I simply mean war between two or more people with opposing views. I guess you could say that all war is political, but what I meant to imply is that there are people with so wildly different views that they want to kill each other.

Money, yes, it is the core of the game. Everything is done with money. Loyalty, yes and no. Loyalty to your employer yes, but only for as long as the job, and only if you think that there isnt a more profitable way you can be doing things. Loyalty only really comes into it because doing what you're told is a sure way of getting paid. It's really all about money.

And yes, i know that the blank slate idea wont work.

Again yes and no. I wanted to make sure that players dont all have to grow up in the same faction, because if i set down that this faction hates that faction then players who pick that faction stop other people from going the other faction. Or at least stop the party working properly because of where they're born. I was thinking of having something along the lines of when people reach adulthood they are free to (and encouraged to) make friends with anyone from anywhere and experience as much as possible, so they dont have a limited worldview when they come back. So you're absolute loyalty is expected to be with your homeland, but you're encouraged not to let loyalty get in the way of experience. Does that make sense?

Just for the record, I would never use "Just Because" as a reason.

The battles are less open now because honestly, they were running out of soldiers. One by one they all stopped sending out their armies and put up a solid defensive position until one day they will have trained enough soldiers to attack again. The open war is just on standby, and while this is happening they hire mercenaries to sabotage the armies of everyone else. I guess this is where faction loyalty does come into it, because the character would secretly sabotage any attempt to sabotage his homeland.

Families, as well as school life is encouraged to be fleshed out in character creation in order to bring depth to your character, but they have no essential mechanical significance until you find a reason for them to.

I chose to use classes because everything is learnt from an instructor, so you would have a fighting instructor, magic instructor and so on and so on. It just felt natural to separate the skills into the schools of thought that they belonged to.

I havent just anything really as a model for my game. Im just piecing together the shards of game that are floating around in my head.

Hope I helped explain things.

Thoughts?

You're draining all the cool bits from your idea. It is possible to make this game an engaging look into this culture and what makes these people kill the shit out of each other. Or you can make this game a boring retread of D&D.

I encourage you to really get down there into your setting. Think about the culture, the technology, the history. Make rules to evoke those cool things.

You know why strong loyalties will work in a game like this? 1) Every side is going to have its fanatics: Fanatics are PROBLEMS for people who think the world is run by money 2) Every one has their price: The more loyal you are to a side, the higher your price is to work against them. And when you work against your side, you're harming your friends and family. How much will it cost me to get you to take out your father's factory? How much to kidnap your sister? How much to assassinate your best friend who just happens to be a prominent politician?

Regarding families, are you saying this is going to be left up to hand-waving or that you're going to write up six really cool families that you choose to be a part of or work against?

If I were writing your game, and I'm not, but if I was, my character creation mechanic would be like this:

Pick faction: Gives trait and skill
Pick family: Gives trait and skill
Pick a youthful endeavor or passion: Gives trait or skill
Pick coursework/instructors: Gives trait or skill
Pick experience -- first mission, second mission, veteran: Gives trait and skill

Not only does a method like that give you a fleshed out character, but it gives the GM tons of hooks to use with the player. We know something about where he's from, who his family is, what he did when he was a teenager, what he studied at school and what kind of professional he is.

You can top that off with something like "Loyalties" -- just a list of ideas or people to whom the player is loyal. You can rank them from 5 to 1, 5 being the most loyal. The ranking can then be a cost multiplier for how much the player can charge for working against his loyalties.

You can also add "Vendettas" -- a short list of three people the player wants revenge against, against whom he'll work for very cheap.

Killing for money and leveling up can be done in nearly any D&D clone. There's no need to play your game if that's all it does. Make your game about all of the interesting ideas you have.

Also, if you're stuck on classes, then I recommend you go out and play more RPGs. There have always been RPGs that don't use classes. Many of them have interesting takes on starting characters and advancement. I recommend John Wick's Houses of the Blooded, Greg Stolze's Reign and Russell Colin's unpublished "Contract Work."

Hope that helps,
-Luke
-L