Topic: Polearm use question (a little OT)
Started by: Ace
Started on: 7/20/2002
Board: The Riddle of Steel
On 7/20/2002 at 10:36pm, Ace wrote:
Polearm use question (a little OT)
We are debating GURPS 4e changes over in Pyramid and need some feedback on how Polearms work in single combat.
Lets say I am armed with a nifty halberd and come across a swordsman.
We both have roughly the same skills and experience with our weapons and the same armor (full mail)
He has an arming sword and a kite shield. I have a halberd.
Who has the advantage here?
I would guess I do because of reach.
A few of the folks defending the GURPS 2 second to ready after a cut rule claim that the swordman can just slip in close when my weapon is "down" and I am hauling it back into place.
This seems patently rididculous to me. A Halberd isn't really slow. It will require a bit more strength to use it, true, and its awkward to carry but it isn't "out for two rounds" on a swing
I would grant you if you could get in close or hit from behind (aka win initiative) the sword ewould be at an advantage but otherwise the halberd is king
With it I could batter the shield defense to pieces or jam a spike into the sword guy at my leisure.
Anybody here with polearm experience --- WMA especially, know how this would really play out?
On 7/21/2002 at 2:27am, Lyrax wrote:
RE: Polearm use question (a little OT)
I'm not entirely certain how this would work, but I'd give my vote to the halberd.
The GURPS folks say that the halberd is "out" for two rounds on a swing? Probably true enough (assuming a sword blow takes one round to complete). The problem is that a halberd is an incredible thrusting weapon with an axe-like appendage for hooking, tripping, etc. It's not used for a full-body swing (which this system seems to be trying to depict).
Thrusts are very different with polearms than are swings. If you take a big stick, like a broom handle or longer, and try some, you'll see what I mean. Thrusts are easy to recover from and, with such a long weapon, don't leave you at all exposed.
The part that throws my predictions off is the shield. I have not trained much with sword & shield, and not at all with it against a polearm. I know that single-sword techniques are vulnerable to a good spearman because of range and are vulnerable against sword & shield for lack of available targets. One of the main weaknesses of any polearm is that if I, the swordsman, can get beyond its point, I can grab the haft of your weapon and stick you with my sword. With the shield, I lose that option, but greatly reduce your number of targets. If the swordsman is a faster runner than the halberdier (highly unlikely with such a large shield), then he can win easily by closing in. A protracted fight at long range favors the halberdier. A fight in close favors the swordsman.
The axelike part of the halberd, now, can be used to the advantage of either person. The halberdier can use it to hook the shield and poke the swordsman, but the swordsman can use his weapon to hook the hook and close in.
Whew! I didn't expect to post quite so much. I think the halberdier would win, but I don't really know (mostly because of the shield).
On 7/21/2002 at 4:25am, Jake Norwood wrote:
Re: Polearm use question (a little OT)
I'm going to back Lance on this one, more or less.
Ace wrote: We are debating GURPS 4e changes over in Pyramid and need some feedback on how Polearms work in single combat.
Lets say I am armed with a nifty halberd and come across a swordsman.
We both have roughly the same skills and experience with our weapons and the same armor (full mail)
He has an arming sword and a kite shield. I have a halberd.
Who has the advantage here?
I would guess I do because of reach.
Halbardier, although the shield is a tricky issue. You have reach (a HUGE issue), as well as a hook to pull down his shield and a spike to kill him with once you pull it down. According to many manuals this was the best way to use the poleaxe and halberd. This is easy to do in TROS rules...as for GURPS (the game that I was most fond of throughout high school, though I never matched your supp. count) it's a bit harder, but not impossible.
A few of the folks defending the GURPS 2 second to ready after a cut rule claim that the swordman can just slip in close when my weapon is "down" and I am hauling it back into place.
This seems patently rididculous to me. A Halberd isn't really slow. It will require a bit more strength to use it, true, and its awkward to carry but it isn't "out for two rounds" on a swing
I would grant you if you could get in close or hit from behind (aka win initiative) the sword ewould be at an advantage but otherwise the halberd is king
Exactly right, as I understand it. The shield will help with his attack (hence the lower DTN).
With it I could batter the shield defense to pieces or jam a spike into the sword guy at my leisure.
Anybody here with polearm experience --- WMA especially, know how this would really play out?
Leisure is a strong word, but I still think you have the advantage. We'd done a decent bit of Long staff work, and that's my experience. Polarms rule. Check out George Silver's "Paradoxes of Defence" for a period viewpoint on this. You can find a copy at www.thearma.org or www.aemma.com
Jake
On 7/21/2002 at 6:31pm, Ace wrote:
RE: Polearm use question (a little OT)
Thanks Jake! Hope you don't mind but I am going to quote you as a source over on Pyramid--- We need to figure this issue out if we decide to have a 4th edition
FRankly I want to TROS some aspects of GURPS if I can