I feel this needs something of an intro. Mage Blade first came to the Forge about 7-8 years ago. It was something of a heartbreaker then, and I've shelved it and picked it back up more times than I can count in the interim. I believe now I've got the right vision, but I've got two very serious mental blocks that have been impeding further progress for years now. The first of those blocks is Character Creation.

What I want is a flexible system for describing your character’s life, and experiences. I want this to translate into their capabilities in such a way that the life choices matter, but that leave some leeway for two people who made the same choices to be different in the details.

What I’ve got is the bare outlines for a sort of life path steps. I want an initial step lasting about 5 years, based on the social class of the character. After that, the player may choose new steps in 1-year blocks. Each year of life ‘biases’ their attributes. At the end of the life path, the bias determines the categories of their attributes.. For example, a life as a laborer or a soldier is going to bias your attributes toward Earth (strength, stamina, toughness) with Fire as a secondary. If you toss in a year spent as a traveling minstrel, you’ll get a small bias toward Water (social) and Air. The end result will prioritize your attributes Earth, Fire, Water, Air and Void, so you’ll have the most points to distribute amongst your Earth Attributes, and the least for your Void Attributes. Any ties in the bias will be broken by player choice.

I need to add skills into this, but I don’t think a variation on the bias system would work. I also don’t want someone who spends 10 years as a soldier to be able to easily toss 10 points into Sword, maxing it out. I want someone with 10 years as a soldier to have a lot of soldiering skills, but I want them to have some other non-soldiery options during that period, as well. I want skills to have a soft cap of about 60 points for a starting character of about 20 years, so I’m looking at an average of 3 points per year.

On top of this, I find I like the trait system of Burning Wheel, though I don’t know that I like the specific implementation. I want you to be able to pick up special traits by way of making certain life choices, and I want you to be able to choose some that make your character unique.

Burning Wheel is a big influence on this, mostly because it’s the only life path system I have much experience with, which isn’t saying much. I’ve poked a little at Traveler’s system, but the focus seemed to be very different from what I’m looking for (as it’s largely occupational and starts at adulthood, from what I remember)

I don’t know why I’ve been struggling with this for so long. I cannot figure out a system that does what I want. My last break-through was the bias system for attributes, which really does what I wanted in that respect. I need to find systems which meet my needs equally well for skills and traits. It may be that I've just been stirring this around for too long, but whenever I sit down and try to work through this, I end up working in circles, eventually scrapping the whole thing as a bad job and starting over.

I'm sure the information here isn't quite enough to give proper feedback. I'm walking the line between too much info and too little. So, ask questions, give suggestions, point me toward resources I may be unfamiliar with. I'll appreciate anything you send my way.

I really like this idea for character gen, as it gives a character history at the same time as they get stats, and you usually get a plausable character out of it. I believe the Star Trek RPG did something similar, with stats mostly coming from choices of backgrounds and upbringings. I think they had it so that each job gave you specific traits and skills, sort of like a class.

If you want to prevent people from min maxing (putting everything into Soldier) you could either fix the skills that Soldier gives you (ie 1 point sword, 1 point tactics and 1 point armor maintenance), or force the player to pick other skills by limiting the amount of skill points that can be put into a skill for each year. Hackmaster had events that happened to you during training that determined how your skills were leveled up. So you could roll on a table to determine what they get, plus each roll could add some flavor. For example you could have an outcome such as "You were posted as a city guard at the gates, you gain 1 point in beaurocracy and 1 point in negotiation.

Hope that helps.

What might be easier than creating specific Life Paths is to do a normal point distribution method for both attributes and skills... ... ... but add a lil' twist.
Do the distribution in phases. Each phase has a certain number of points based on its category. You could have a Primary Phase, a Secondary Phase and then a Minor Phase. Each phase represents a different chunk of time, not necessarily in chronological order and only grouped together based relevance... The player would designate each Phase's representation, for instance; Primary Phase is his time in a soldier type career, Secondary Phase is the time he spent sailing while dealing with abyssal monsters and his Minor Phase is that short stint he had as a wandering minstrel.

MacLeod,

That's not a bad idea generally, but I really believe that lifepaths will best accomplish what I want, so at this point, it's non-negotiable. That's a similar idea, though with prioritization added, to the skill packages that The Riddle of Steel uses, which is an idea I tried to crib in earlier versions of this.

Silas,

You hit the nail on the head as to my goals with this idea. History and character building all intertwined.

As for your specific suggestions, I've tried something like that. The issue with having specific skills granted for each step in a path, or by limiting number/step is that if you limit it to 1/skill/step, a 10 year soldier can still have a 10 skill in swords. I've even tried doing fractions of skills per level.. 1/3 weapon skill per year of soldier.. This is a semi workable solution, but it's unwieldy. I mean, really.. Who wants to keep track of 5/3rds sword skill, and 3/4ths shield skill, even if it's only during character creation?

I've even thought about skill categories.. For every year of soldier, get 2 points of soldier skills, 1 point of survival skills.. Or whatever. But that runs into the same problems.

It's not inconceivable that a beginning level character can have a level 10 sword skill.. But I want it to be something they angled for, took some pains, and made some sacrifices to attain. It has to be important to the concept, not just something they picked up along the way.

Now, I *like* the events idea. Distinctive occurrences in the characters life that left a specific mark on them. But that's more something to think about later, once the basics are in place.

Or.. is it? It may be that I'm not entirely understanding what you're putting forth. Feel free to enlighten me if you were suggesting this as a more central mechanic.

Hey Lance, do you have Poison'd? It's where I went with lifepaths. If you do have it, it obviously hasn't been any help, but if you don't have it, I'll tell you how it works and maybe it will.

-Vincent

Vincent,

I don't. It wasn't really on my radar at all until GenCon, when I was trying to limit my new experiences so as to not exceed my budget with my desires.

I am passingly familiar with its subject matter, and that judgment of your own character's sins is a theme, but I don't know much specific about it.

Also, while I've got you looking my way.. Are you the guy to talk to about changing my user name to my real name? I've noticed it happen a few times over the years, so I guess I'm ready to take the leap.

If you are, Lance D. Allen is preferable, but Lance Allen is fine.

Why not just make a rule that you can't choose the same skill twice in a row?  For example, 1 year as a soldier allows you to choose 1 rank in Swords, Tactics, or Armor Maintenance.  If you're a soldier for ten years, then you can only get a rank of 5 in any one of those, and doing so means you don't get the other skills as high.  You said something about 3 points per year, so what you could do is, choose any two skills related to that life period and one not related.  I hope you have more skills than this, because to keep from choosing a skill twice in a row, and yet having two points to spend per year (on profession related skills), you'd need at least four skills related to that life period (for example, for a soldier: Melee, Missiles (ranged weapons), Survival, Equipment (maintenance), Tactics, Logistics, Leadership, and Horsemanship, plenty of skills to choose from, with possible subdivisions of the soldier profession, like footman, archer, cavalry, officer, quartermaster, etc.).  I don't know exactly what it is you're wanting to do with your game, but here's my two cents.

Hey Lance,

I'm going to plead a case for this, "I've even thought about skill categories.. For every year of soldier, get 2 points of soldier skills, 1 point of survival skills.. Or whatever. But that runs into the same problems. mish-mashed in with original Black-Box Traveller's system.

Here's what you do.  You amend your sentence to read, "For every year of soldier, get 2 points of soldier skill rolls, 1 point of survival skill rolls." Then, you stat up the various skill-roll-type tables.  Maybe soldier has sword, tactics, shield, command, etc.  Then, for each pick, the player just rolls to see what skill they picked up.

It works well in Traveller, because you're also instructed to generate a background narrative as you go; "Hmmm.  Why'd I pick up command and latrine digging in the same year?  Probably had a bad run-in with my CO..."

Is there anywhere I can read more about Mage Blade as a concept?  What's the game about?
D

Lance,
I heartily endorse a BW lifepath hack. Use it and hack! Start with the BW stuff and do the, "I like THIS, but not THIS" form of design.

Also, have you read Mouse Guard? What do you think about the implementation of lifepaths in that game?

-L

Lance: done. The system has to reset your password, you should have email with your new password already. If you have any trouble, email me at lumpley at gmail.

Poison'd: you know those things in Burning Wheel character creation where it's like "if you've given birth, you get +1 steel"? Poison'd character creation is all like that:

Which of the following has your character suffered? Choose any or all, but at least one:
Accursing
Arrest
Attempted murder
Beating
Branding
[etc.]
Brutality [one of the stats] is equal to the number you’ve chosen. However, if you’ve chosen more than six, Brutality is still 6; if you’ve chosen only one, it’s still 2.

Vincent, thanks.

The Steel rules with BW are something I'm familiar with. I stole from them shamelessly when I reworked the Conviction rules for ReCoil (going from a random roll to a number based on choices made for the character, plus 3 questions). I don't think it's directly applicable to what I want, but it does give me an interesting idea dealing with traits, combined with the snippet from Silas, above. Once concern I see with that is the munchkin factor.. But I guess that's a group moderation deal. If the group doesn't call bullshit, then it's acceptable. Obviously it's worked for BW and Poison'd.

Luke,

I have not read Mouse Guard, for much the same reasons I haven't seen Poison'd. I've been intrigued by the things I've been reading on Story Games and other places, though. I've never heard of the comic prior to hearing about the game around GenCon last year.

Egonblaidd, That actually isn't a bad idea, despite it's simplicity. The initial issue that came up was that I saw creation going through the lifepaths, then buying skills and assigning attributes afterward, but that's not hard. Simply say that you cannot have a skill more than twice the total number of years of associated paths. It runs into the issue where lifepaths which I'd be more kosher with a greater rate of single-skill advancement, such as a member of a sword school, but that's not impossible to overcome. However, Darcy's idea is the one that is most intriguing to me so far. I'm going to go away and ponder it for a while.

Darcy: I have my new site up, but I've not filled in a lot of the content yet, as my provider has been complete ass on uploads of any size lately. I'm thankful I can get on the internet at all, again. As soon as I'm done here, I'll see if it'll let me upload the .html.

All the same what will be there is pretty sparse. I kinda suck at capsulizing what my games are about. Either I go too vague trying for brevity, so it sounds generic and dull, or I go long-winded.

But I'll try, once more, to capture the spirit in a brief format.

Mage Blade is fantasy adventure. It will come with a packaged setting, but that's also in flux at the moment, as I'm starting to realize I need to let go of certain cherished ideas that don't really seem grabby. What's important is that the basic resolution system is pretty traditional, with character effectiveness being the main thing modeled by the rules. It has rules for both social and physical combats, (and did even before I'd heard of Luke's Duel of Wits, for what it's worth) What I think really makes the game stand out is the metasystem which, at its most basic, is about the characters doing things that interest their players. The players set goals, and when their characters accomplish those goals, their reward is both character advancement, and the ability to set new goals. Those goals move toward or away from a pre-determined endgame. The role of the GM shifts from author of the plotline to facilitator to the player's goals. Magic will be flexible and versatile, and is, to me, one of the more interesting parts of the system. It's also the other mental block I mention up in my first post.. But I'm tackling them one at a time.

I don't think I'm done with this thread, but I do intend to step away until I've fully thought over the ideas presented here. Feel free to post other questions or ideas, and I'll get to those in the near future. Thanks a bunch.

A pretty good discussion here let me add my 2 cents. 

Personally I didn't like Traveler's life path random system. Probably because my GM didn't run the character creation very well.  :)

I recall the Bubblegum Crisis system had an interesting life path system as well if you'd like to find it. (OLD school I know. :) )

Personally I enjoy life path systems if they have fun little "surprises" in them.  So for instance you've got your "first 10 years" section and then another career section for each year after that right?  Well in each year (and I know this was mentioned before) you should have event rolls for major and minor life events that can occur.  Examples of such would be:

First Love.  A horse of a different color.  The ball.  A religious experience.  A chance meeting.  Taken too early.  The Plague.

Most should have choices involved.  Each would have an effect on skills, either by granting extra skills, restricting skills, or providing starting cash or items. 

For instance a horse of a different color might give you the chance of attempting to tame a wild stallion.  The choice would be to try or not to try. The reward might be a horse at start, or skill in animal handling, but if you passed it might prevent you from getting any animal related skills for that block or what not.

I'm sure you can imagine lots of fun "extras" that these events would add to a character.  From surviving the plague to having a hated enemy. 

I hope this helps and I look forward to hearing more.

If you want to keep it simple, and prevent a 10 year soldier having a 10 in sword, you could have each skill cost n points to level up, where n is the level you wish to purchase. That way the maximum sword skill a 10 year soldier could have would be 4. Or you could have n/2 rounded up, so ranks 1 and 2 cost 1, 3 and 4 cost 2, etc, which would let them have about 5 I think, with a point left over. Obviously you could tailor the formula to enable you to have a target number of whatever you wanted.

You could also establish some routine cap for skills, then require specific subevents to allow for increases beyond that.

So say 4 is your base skill cap you desire, and about the low end of what you might want a competant character to have in the skill.

Veteran of X (War, a specific battle, Politics, Court, Investment Firm, etc) gets you +1, and maybe some allies or enemies and some related skills. Purpose of this is to round the character out while raising the cap.

This in turn is your gateway to a variety of history inspiring events, which could be specific battles, social movements, or crisis in the setting for a nice link up, or at least something that evokes an idea of what honed you.

So you might have Blooded Duelist allow for yet another +1 in swords, and some reputation and contacts, or Survivor of the Denzilite Crusade, or boiler room shark, or politico patron and so on.

You coudl either add in, or combine these to suggest personal events as well, like Betrayer (See Swimming with the Sharks), or even Betrayed, political marriage, rediscovered faith, and such.

I do wish we had an edit function.

Also: you could get some great milage out of events that mark a transition to another phase. Why did you leave the Chruch? What longing made you leave your successful careeer as a Trader? What trauma or crisis set you on a new path?

Just a quick note to say I'm still working, and I think I've got an idea that will work for me. Once I round it out and bang on it a little bit to make sure it seems complete enough to bear some critique, I'll post it back up here for commentary.

For your edification, the bulk of the skill bit is riffed from Darcy. Once I've got that figured, I'll be looking into the trait bit, where I'll be looking more closely at some of the other suggestions here.

Thanks a lot, folks. This thread is made of gold and stamped with awesome.

It sounds like you're going a different direction, but one way to avoid the "munchkin factor" is to have similar questions is different categories, with different results.  Burning Wheel does this with Health and Steel.  Surviving a wound gives you more Steel, but less Health.  You can do the same thing (and tie it to traits, like you wanted, too).  I'd make a list of questions for each Element:

For example:

Earth:
Have you been a professional soldier? +1 Earth
Have you been defeated in Battle? +1 Earth, "Haunted" trait.

Fire
Have you stood victorious on the Battlefield? +1 Fire
Are you undefeated in battle? +1 Fire, "Arrogant" trait.

Air
Have you lived a life of peace? +1 Air
Have you visited the cities of the East? +1 Air

Water
Have you lived amongst your people your whole life? +1 Water

Or something.  I don't know what you want each element to represent.