Topic: Graphical ways to represent plot development?
Started by: redalastor
Started on: 5/11/2009
Board: First Thoughts
On 5/11/2009 at 9:23pm, redalastor wrote:
Graphical ways to represent plot development?
I'm working on a LARP management software to make tracking all the huge pile of info that goes into a LARP bearable. It's going to track players, characters, xp, etc.
But there is not only the mechanics of the game that are full of info, plot development is. There's the timeline, relations between factions, character goals, events, possible branches, etc. I'd like to help people running LARPs with that too but I don't want to reinvent a square wheel. What good visualizations exists to represent a complex story with lots of characters?
I Googled for it but had very little chance.
On 5/12/2009 at 2:58am, dauvis wrote:
Re: Graphical ways to represent plot development?
For the plot stuff, I would think something similar to a project management application would work. On the horizontal axis you could have the time line of the campaign and the verticle axis can be the events or activities that are planned. The interface will show when the events are scheduled and relationships between them (event B is dependent on event A being completed). For each event, you can associate characters and notes. For characters, I would just treat them as an object to which you can attach a note. For factions, unless you have a huge number, I would think that a simple grid would suffice. On the intersection of each faction, you can attach notes to maintain a history.
You might be able to use an open source project management tool as a starting point if someone else has not already done something like this.
On 5/12/2009 at 5:34am, redalastor wrote:
RE: Re: Graphical ways to represent plot development?
Thanks for your reply.
I forgot to mention but my number one criteria is that it should support the LARP organizer without feeling like a straight-jacket. I'm very concious about forcing people to do stuff with a particular method that gets in their way.
Also, I don't insist on drag and drop in my interface. I don't know if you ever tried to make a diagram in a program like Visio (or even Powerpoint, or their open source equivalent) but it's terribly time consuming just to have things not overlapping like crazy. It turns out computers can do a much better job of making the information presentable than a human.
Example: http://www.graphviz.org/Gallery/undirected/philo.html
dauvis wrote:
For the plot stuff, I would think something similar to a project management application would work. On the horizontal axis you could have the time line of the campaign and the verticle axis can be the events or activities that are planned. The interface will show when the events are scheduled and relationships between them (event B is dependent on event A being completed).
Unfortunately, time dependencies in GANTT charts (and similar) don't work very well in practice (even if managers still insist on them, go figure). However, I was thinking of a timeline. Something that could look like this: http://www.graphviz.org/Gallery/directed/switch.html
Horizontal axis is game dates. Vertical axis is active plotlines. I'm not sure how I would connect events together. By interaction maybe? A affects B so A is linked to B. It doesn't allow much for branching plotlines though...
[quoter=dauvis link=topic=27998.msg263826#msg263826 date=1242097116]For each event, you can associate characters and notes. For characters, I would just treat them as an object to which you can attach a note. For factions, unless you have a huge number, I would think that a simple grid would suffice. On the intersection of each faction, you can attach notes to maintain a history.
The larger issue is not only how should I graph it but what should I graph? That's my main reason for asking help here, I'd like you to help me figure out which plot information is worth tracking when doing a large LARP.
[quoter=dauvis link=topic=27998.msg263826#msg263826 date=1242097116]You might be able to use an open source project management tool as a starting point if someone else has not already done something like this.
I checked. I checked writers tools too. The only one that looked nice was Writer's Café which have a nice time line feature: http://www.writerscafe.co.uk/
On 5/12/2009 at 5:36am, redalastor wrote:
RE: Re: Graphical ways to represent plot development?
Damn! I should have previewed first :(
On 5/12/2009 at 2:37pm, pells wrote:
RE: Re: Graphical ways to represent plot development?
Hi Redalastor !!!
I can't provide you with a graphic interface, but I can give hints on concept and how to manage the kind of things you want.
My own project is for rpg. It is a multi plots, calendar based campaign. It could very well be applied to LARP, as it is where most of my ideas came from (to somehow "simulate" LARP in a rpg : players can't take part in all the stories and the plots go on even if they are not there).
So, to acheive this, I needed a couple of concepts and tools, very specific.
There's the timeline, relations between factions, character goals, events, possible branches, etc.
About characters and factions, I would recommend the use of a rmap (which is not from me, by the way). Here's mine.
You can find many other examples, but mine might be similar to what to you're looking for : many factions and characters. You can easily spot who is leading what faction, who is part of what of faction and who is opposed to or allied to someone else. That said, you could even provide a different rmap for different times, as alliances may change over time.
Just a note, I (in fact we) did this rmap with photoshop and it took us some time ....
Now, I like to separate clearly two concepts :
Essence : define characters, locations, factions, main objects, monsters outside events (or, if you prefer, at the start of the game). The rmap is here.
Existence : the scenario per se. Events occuring in the world. The existence will generate a web of events. For more information about this (existence is separated into "time units", each bearing specific information, you can read my blog on how to use the web or about the use of time units
Unfortunately, time dependencies in GANTT charts (and similar) don't work very well in practice (even if managers still insist on them, go figure).
GANTT could work (for info, I'm a project manager in my "real work" and I used a lot of them) ; but there is, in my opinion, one big concept missing : stories. Yes, maybe event A happens at time T and affects event B, but what story is it related to ?
A affects B so A is linked to B. It doesn't allow much for branching plotlines though...
Your main concern in running a LARP, I think, is not much "does A is linked to B ?" but instead "if A doesn't happen as it should have, what part of the plotline (or I would say the web) is broken ?"
That's my main reason for asking help here, I'd like you to help me figure out which plot information is worth tracking when doing a large LARP.
My theory doesn't answer that. You could go into much and much details to describe a event or just stay at "high level". I would recommend the latest, but there's not obligation. My work is about "information architecture", not the information per se.
As, for graph, I would recommend to use to do it by "hand", using arrows to represent dependencies between events and various colors (one for each story you have defined) to identify which event is part of what story (putting events into a box).
That said, I plan of building a website to have a user interface for that, but at the moment I'm using excel (not very useful).
Anyway, last thing maybe, here's a link to my teaser, which should give you a better idea. That said, the teaser is singled story, so no big deal about plot tracking.
I hope this could help, and don't hesitate to tell me how this doesn't respond to your need. I'd be my pleasure to try to work on a different model with you.
On 5/12/2009 at 7:30pm, dauvis wrote:
RE: Re: Graphical ways to represent plot development?
redalastor wrote:
I'm very concious about forcing people to do stuff with a particular method that gets in their way.
I agree with this but I would like to point out that there is a trade-off to be had. If you make it too flexible, it can become confusing and something that people will not want to use. On the other hand, if it is not flexible enough, it limits the audience. I am assuming that there is nothing existing for what you want to do.
redalastor wrote:
Unfortunately, time dependencies in GANTT charts (and similar) don't work very well in practice (even if managers still insist on them, go figure). However, I was thinking of a timeline. Something that could look like this: http://www.graphviz.org/Gallery/directed/switch.html
Horizontal axis is game dates. Vertical axis is active plotlines. I'm not sure how I would connect events together. By interaction maybe? A affects B so A is linked to B. It doesn't allow much for branching plotlines though...
I recommended a GANTT chart / project management tool is because for all practical purposes what they are doing is managing a project. You probably do not want to go with a full blown project management tool as that would be overkill. Instead of steps to complete a project, you have story arcs and subplots. On the top, you will have your game dates. In the middle, the boxes would represent events/adventures that are scheduled. The links between the events can be your relationships between the events. These relationships can be made conditional based on whether or not the characters took or can take certain paths.
If you take a step back and compare the GANTT chart and the switch network to which you linked, the GANTT chart is a subset of the switch network. The switch network would probably be a better choice because of its flexibility but there are already controls available for displaying GANTT charts. I don't know any for the switch network.
redalastor wrote:
The larger issue is not only how should I graph it but what should I graph? That's my main reason for asking help here, I'd like you to help me figure out which plot information is worth tracking when doing a large LARP.
For the factions, you probably should show a summarization of the relationships between the factions with an option to drill down deeper. I would think a broad overview would be more useful than trying to throw everything on the screen at once. For this, there isn't any need to get fancy. For example, you can have the factions listed on both axis of a grid (with an option to filter). Each cell will show an icon/color coding to indicate the status (allies, at war, etc...) and maybe some brief text.
For characters, the time line screen shot of writer's cafe would be good for an overview. If implemented correctly, you can have the program automatically generate that time line (think associating characters with events in the GANTT chart).
For a group that does not want to keep lots of detailed information, overviews might be sufficient for their needs. Additional detail would be optional and they can enter it if they desire. That was the idea behind my mentioning of notes. You can have a small number of objects in the program (plots, events, characters, factions, ect...) To each of these objects, the user can attach a note. A note can be just a small blurb of text or a document such as a PDF. I would keep this user defined as to make it more flexible for their needs.
On 5/14/2009 at 12:41am, redalastor wrote:
RE: Re: Graphical ways to represent plot development?
dauvis wrote:
I agree with this but I would like to point out that there is a trade-off to be had. If you make it too flexible, it can become confusing and something that people will not want to use. On the other hand, if it is not flexible enough, it limits the audience. I am assuming that there is nothing existing for what you want to do.
Yes and no. A few years ago, I was a user of a program called Grapevine to manage White Wolf games whose creator is probably still of a member of this board (Hi Adam, thanks for everything). This program was written in VB6 and coding it became overwhelming for his creator and every new addition added on the big ball of mud the code was becoming. What killed it though, is when White Wolf launched a brand new line and it probably would have required a rewriting from scratch of the app.
Turns out a few years later I'm going to manage a White Wolf LARP again next fall and I'd much appreciate having a software such as Grapevine to do it.
I have a good idea what I want for the character sheets, the printed reports and everything, basically I'm using the basic ideas Adam brought but I have better tools than what was available back then, I used his app for years some that gives me some insights and I have the opportunity that I'm rewriting from scratch so I can afford to make some decisions it was too late for him to make.
The only part I'm unsure about is plot management. While there's a ton of info in character sheets, managing plots was were I spent most of my time. I feel that this area could be made much better but I don't have a clear vision yet for that.
If you are familiar with Grapevine, I can share my ideas for my own version of the program if you wish.
dauvis wrote: I recommended a GANTT chart / project management tool is because for all practical purposes what they are doing is managing a project. You probably do not want to go with a full blown project management tool as that would be overkill. Instead of steps to complete a project, you have story arcs and subplots. On the top, you will have your game dates. In the middle, the boxes would represent events/adventures that are scheduled. The links between the events can be your relationships between the events. These relationships can be made conditional based on whether or not the characters took or can take certain paths.
Maybe I could have many ways to see the data. For instance, Imagine I click on a character and in the middle of my graph, there's this character and around it are the events this character is involved in. Maybe characters he's interacting with too (for instance if someone gave me a downtime (in between games actions) involving the other character, I could link them. Then I could increase a spinbox to 2 and I'd see two links past the character. Or I could click an event and see who's involve and what other events it affects.
The timeline would give an overall idea of the plot and clicking on any object would give a relationship view.
At first sight, it seems a good idea to me. What do you think?
dauvis wrote: If you take a step back and compare the GANTT chart and the switch network to which you linked, the GANTT chart is a subset of the switch network. The switch network would probably be a better choice because of its flexibility but there are already controls available for displaying GANTT charts. I don't know any for the switch network.
I'd use graphviz, the same tool that created that switch network. It's embeddable and cross-platform.
dauvis wrote: For the factions, you probably should show a summarization of the relationships between the factions with an option to drill down deeper. I would think a broad overview would be more useful than trying to throw everything on the screen at once. For this, there isn't any need to get fancy. For example, you can have the factions listed on both axis of a grid (with an option to filter). Each cell will show an icon/color coding to indicate the status (allies, at war, etc...) and maybe some brief text.
What about making factions a kind of meta entities? It knows which characters comprise it (for instance a vampire covenant) so when I click on it, it can show me who is linked to it and to what they are linked but is treated a pseudo-character by the plot management tool so I can say that faction X affects plot Y the same way I can say that a character affects a plot.
dauvis wrote: For characters, the time line screen shot of writer's cafe would be good for an overview. If implemented correctly, you can have the program automatically generate that time line (think associating characters with events in the GANTT chart).
Yes. that's pretty much my goal at the moment.
dauvis wrote: For a group that does not want to keep lots of detailed information, overviews might be sufficient for their needs. Additional detail would be optional and they can enter it if they desire. That was the idea behind my mentioning of notes. You can have a small number of objects in the program (plots, events, characters, factions, ect...) To each of these objects, the user can attach a note. A note can be just a small blurb of text or a document such as a PDF. I would keep this user defined as to make it more flexible for their needs.
Yes annotation is a great idea. I was thinking of adding a notepad section where you can store arbitrary texts in a tree view (think folders), this could be linked to it.
On 5/14/2009 at 12:44am, redalastor wrote:
RE: Re: Graphical ways to represent plot development?
pells wrote: My theory doesn't answer that. You could go into much and much details to describe a event or just stay at "high level". I would recommend the latest, but there's not obligation. My work is about "information architecture", not the information per se.
You are right that I need some architecture. I'm taking note of what you said. I'm looking at what objects will be included and what possible relationships they can have.
Thanks for your post.