Hi all, first post here after more than a year of lurking.  I am new to Sorcerer and have introduced it to my gaming group for a trial run.  I am the GM and have made quite an effort to understand the system both as written in the main rule book plus supplements, and also with the help of the wiki and numerous threads here at the Forge.

I still have a lot of questions though - all arising from a first combat session we are playing through at the moment. The game is online (play by post) which allows a lot of time for reflection on how exactly to apply a given rule.

Any guidance anyone can offer in relation to the questions below would be much appreciated!

1) When a demon confers its special damage to a sorceror, does the sorceror attack with stamina or the demon's power (if the latter, would it not negate usefulness of 'fast' insofar as 'fast' adds the demon's power as initiative dice but not 'action' dice.)

2) When an object demon has not conferred its special damage, how does it attack if it doesn't also have range?  What happens when it is a weapon wielded by its master.  What happens in the case of (e.g.) special damage: poison, which may coat the blade of an object demon (knife) when activated.  Does the wielder have to hit on the same round as the power is activated? Does it carry over into the next round or several?  Is the damage done based on the wielder's stamina or the special damage, or both (successes on one rolled into the next roll?)  How can they do so if the rolls are simultaneous at the start of the round?

3) Do successes in defense from a previous round always give bonuses to an action in the following round? Does this affect initiative too? (I suspect it is only when the new action is directly relevant to the success-generating action from last round.)

4) If a character sucks up an attack and takes damage as a result, do the damage dice apply to his attack later in the round?  How does the penalty work given that his attack dice are already on the table? 

5) Does temporary damage affect next round's initiative if it was inflicted before the character acted in the prior round.  i.e. the character sucks up an attack, takes damage, then acts (with temporary damage reducing his dice pool).  Presumably there is not penalty to initiative and action next round except from lasting damage? 

6) If a character has taken damage in a previous round, his next action may be at enough penalty dice to give him zero or negative dice pool for his next action.  I understand that zero is the minimum, and so in a contested action one would normally add one die to both the wounded character's dice pool, plus also that of the person acting against them (please confirm this understanding).  How exactly does this work in a combat situation where multiple characters are attacking that same wounded character - do they all get +1 die to their attack?

7) If a demon's action to boost its master's stamina occurs late in a round, does the boost carry over into the following round or is it lost? Does it add to the initiative of the master for that following round?

8) Do roleplaying bonuses, prior successes and other currency-related bonuses add to the single die available for passive defense?  If so, then for a low stamina character, the bonuses could easily make him always prefer to always suck-up an attack rather than abort to carry out an active defense.

9) If a character is carrying temporary damage from the previous round, presumably their action (and therefore initiative) dice are impaired for the current round.  What happens if they abort their attack to defend? Does the temporary damage also apply to the defence (even though it has already adversely affected their initiative)? 

10) Following on from (9) what happens if that character is attacked by a second character later in the same round (presumably the temporary damage dice are lifted)?  Does this also apply if their first defence is passive (sucking up the attack) and the second defence is active? i.e. the character has so many negative they might as well defend passively. Is it the case that, later in the round, because of the prior passive defence, the temporary damage has been lifted so they then defend actively with only lasting damage penalties.

11) Do Demons and other NPCs get the same advantages from carrying over successes (default, I suppose so since penalties do seem to apply too). What about ‘roleplaying’ bonuses?

Sincere apologies for the barrage of questions.  As you can see, I am a bit tied up in the possible ways to resolve the various questions outlined above.  My players are similarly unclear.

Any help will be gratefully accepted!

Don't have my books on my right now. I'll be in their vicinity this evening and will post my interperetations then.

I love questions like these! I am only stealing a moment of time to tell you that I will follow up as soon as I can.

Everyone, let me do it first this time, OK? Only because I really want to.

Best, Ron

Will do.

Hi there,

Answering these questions was a lot of fun.

1) When a demon confers its special damage to a sorceror, does the sorceror attack with stamina or the demon's power (if the latter, would it not negate usefulness of 'fast' insofar as 'fast' adds the demon's power as initiative dice but not 'action' dice.)

2) When an object demon has not conferred its special damage, how does it attack if it doesn't also have range?

What happens when it is a weapon wielded by its master. 

What happens in the case of (e.g.) special damage: poison, which may coat the blade of an object demon (knife) when activated.  Does the wielder have to hit on the same round as the power is activated?

Does it carry over into the next round or several? 

Is the damage done based on the wielder's stamina or the special damage, or both (successes on one rolled into the next roll?)  How can they do so if the rolls are simultaneous at the start of the round?

3) Do successes in defense from a previous round always give bonuses to an action in the following round? Does this affect initiative too? (I suspect it is only when the new action is directly relevant to the success-generating action from last round.)

4) If a character sucks up an attack and takes damage as a result, do the damage dice apply to his attack later in the round?  How does the penalty work given that his attack dice are already on the table?

5) Does temporary damage affect next round's initiative if it was inflicted before the character acted in the prior round.  i.e. the character sucks up an attack, takes damage, then acts (with temporary damage reducing his dice pool).  Presumably there is not penalty to initiative and action next round except from lasting damage?

6) If a character has taken damage in a previous round, his next action may be at enough penalty dice to give him zero or negative dice pool for his next action.  I understand that zero is the minimum, and so in a contested action one would normally add one die to both the wounded character's dice pool, plus also that of the person acting against them (please confirm this understanding).  How exactly does this work in a combat situation where multiple characters are attacking that same wounded character - do they all get +1 die to their attack?

7) If a demon's action to boost its master's stamina occurs late in a round, does the boost carry over into the following round or is it lost? Does it add to the initiative of the master for that following round?

8) Do roleplaying bonuses, prior successes and other currency-related bonuses add to the single die available for passive defense?  If so, then for a low stamina character, the bonuses could easily make him always prefer to always suck-up an attack rather than abort to carry out an active defense.

9) If a character is carrying temporary damage from the previous round, presumably their action (and therefore initiative) dice are impaired for the current round.  What happens if they abort their attack to defend? Does the temporary damage also apply to the defence (even though it has already adversely affected their initiative)?

10) Following on from (9) what happens if that character is attacked by a second character later in the same round (presumably the temporary damage dice are lifted)?  Does this also apply if their first defence is passive (sucking up the attack) and the second defence is active? i.e. the character has so many negative they might as well defend passively. Is it the case that, later in the round, because of the prior passive defence, the temporary damage has been lifted so they then defend actively with only lasting damage penalties.

11) Do Demons and other NPCs get the same advantages from carrying over successes (default, I suppose so since penalties do seem to apply too). What about ‘roleplaying’ bonuses?

Number 6 raises a question that has been raised on here recently. Where does it say that if you have 0 dice, you roll one, with your opponent getting an extra die? I never did find that in the main book. Is that an addition by one of the other books? Is it on the wiki somewhere? Some kind of errata?

Dragon Master, I think that rule is not in the main book. I read it here on The Forge somewhere.

Ron, thanks for your time spent in answering all of my questions.  Your responses are immensely helpful!

Ron wrote:
Answering these questions was a lot of fun.

Any attack using Special Damage uses the demon's Power as the score for the roll.
You're absolutely right about Fast. That ability is quite useful if one (including the demon) is using a score which is less than the demon's Power, but completely negated if whatever score being used is equal or higher than that Power. That is on purpose.

2) When an object demon has not conferred its special damage, how does it attack if it doesn't also have range?

This depends to a very great extent upon what sort of object we are talking about and what exactly is supposed to be happening which is described as Special Damage. You'll have to give me a more specific in-game situation. Some object concepts will be much more limited than others in this regard.

Does it carry over into the next round or several? 

I'm not entirely sure what this means. Are you thinking in terms of poison steadily affecting a target over time?

Is the damage done based on the wielder's stamina or the special damage, or both (successes on one rolled into the next roll?)  How can they do so if the rolls are simultaneous at the start of the round?

I hope you can see that the founding assumption of your later questions in this section - which is to say, that the poison is somehow dependent upon the wielder successfully hitting - is incorrect, making most of your concerns unnecessary.

3) Do successes in defense from a previous round always give bonuses to an action in the following round? Does this affect initiative too? (I suspect it is only when the new action is directly relevant to the success-generating action from last round.)

Let me clarify one thing - bonuses from successful rolls affect the character's next roll, regardless of whether that roll is later in the current round or in the following round.

I also need to clarify something which I think you know, that the "initiative" roll in Sorcerer is precisely the same as the attack roll.

This "initiative" talk is hurting my head a little bit ... it's not an initiative roll. Those are the action rolls, what the characters are doing. I know you probably know that.

6) If a character has taken damage in a previous round, his next action may be at enough penalty dice to give him zero or negative dice pool for his next action.  I understand that zero is the minimum, and so in a contested action one would normally add one die to both the wounded character's dice pool, plus also that of the person acting against them (please confirm this understanding).  How exactly does this work in a combat situation where multiple characters are attacking that same wounded character - do they all get +1 die to their attack?

I'll start with your second sentence: your understanding of that issue is exactly right. To answer your last question, we have to presume that although the character has penalized to zero, they did not take enough damage at once to knock them out of acting at all. All right, given all that, then yes, all the attackers would get the +1 bonus. Sucks, huh?

People who wonder how several player-characters could possibly defeat a single, powerful opponent should be taking notes.

8) Do roleplaying bonuses, prior successes and other currency-related bonuses add to the single die available for passive defense?  If so, then for a low stamina character, the bonuses could easily make him always prefer to always suck-up an attack rather than abort to carry out an active defense.

Yes they do apply! However, your "easily" does not correspond to my usage of the bonus dice rules. Insincere and uninteresting attempts to gain bonus dice should not be honored. (see Role-playing bonus dice, Bonus dice questions, and [Sorcerer] The cold and bloody northland for help with this). And if the stated actions are consistently sincere and interesting across many scenes and actions and sessions, then you should not only be awarding bonus dice to this player (and yes, helping his character survive, or at least permitting better odds), you should also be buying him or her beer and possibly offering sexual favours.

I hope you can see that the concept of the "round" is actually not as important as the concept of "next roll" for temporary bonuses and penalties of all kinds. Hey, I found this thread: How long do rollover bonuses last?.

I hope all of this helped! Let me know.

Hi Adam!

You wrote,

For some reason I had confused 'next roll' and 'next action' in my thinking.

I believe I understand the sense in which you are using 'action'. 

When I said 'next action' I was thinking (mistakenly, it now seems) that an aborted action is not actually an action.  When a character makes their roll for the round, this establishes the order in which they act relative to others. This roll also uses up any penalty dice and benefits from any relevant previous successes. 

I was getting confused about what happens if the character needs to defend before he completes his intended action.  Drawing out my wrong thinking a little further, I was thinking that his choices are:
a) abort the intended action, in which case the next actual 'action' for the character is an active defence; or
b) sucked up, in which case the next action is a passive defence (which again may be considered an action or not an action).

That's what I was thinking, however based on your comments earlier, it's all a lot clearer (and simpler) than I was trying to make it.

It is easy (for me at least) to get tied up in language here and I think things are much simplified by thinking about anything giving rise to a roll as an 'action'.  It doesn't matter whether it is successful, completed, interrupted, etc.  There is sufficient conflict to require a roll, the character is doing something.  It's an action and any dice bonuses or penalties are carried over.

Sound about right to you?

adam

Perfect.

Here you are, slashing left and right as you close in - but oh shit, he's faster and plants a foot into your gut - you totally give up on the slashing and do your best to stop your forward momentum to either avoid the worst of the kick or maybe even force it to miss.

Or finish it differently - you go "Huhhh!" and eat the power of the kick as best you can on short notice, doing your utmost to slash the bastard anyway.

In either case, your next roll following your initial "gonna slash him" roll is an action of its own.

All of which is only to add some color to your perfectly correct statements.

Best, Ron

Oh yeah,

Tony, you wrote,

Number 6 raises a question that has been raised on here recently. Where does it say that if you have 0 dice, you roll one, with your opponent getting an extra die? I never did find that in the main book.

Ron, thanks once more for all of your answers to my questions earlier.  Do you mind if I pose a few more that I have been turning over in my mind?

1) Can you please confirm my understanding of the cost vs. duration of the various Demonic powers:

* Armor
* Big
* Fast
* Protection
* Shadow
* Shapeshift
* Vitality

* Hold

All of the above are activated once at the start of a scene/conflict/combat and last for the duration of that scene/conflict/combat.  Hold can be broken if opposed successfully, or strengthened through further applications. 

All of the above (including hold) can also be dropped/cancelled by the user and also by the demon should either wish to do so.  To cancel such a power once activated is a typical action (similar to any other action in combat) and is usually uncontested (roll Demon’s power if it is important for purposes of initiative, otherwise no roll needed). 

Also, if the demon wants to end the use of a conferred power (i.e. user is sorcerer) against the will of the sorceror then it calls for an opposed will roll.

Is all of this accurate?

2) Sorcery on the fly. 
Can it be done in a minute? A second?  5 minutes?  What is the recommended minimum time to get the ability to try the ritual, even if only at a single die? Probably instantaneous right?  However the cost of humanity is a big risk?

What about banishing then? Where there is humanity upside, not downside risk.  Is an ‘on-the-fly’ banishing a viable action to perform during a combat round?

3) Demons summoned but not into a prep-prepared contain. 
Will they hang around for the binding, attack, flee?  Given they want to be bound, is that enough to keep them in line or at least in the vicinity?  If you proceed straight into the binding after the summoning, does that keep them in line?

4) Score descriptions – are they fixed or not. 
Switching tacks a little here.A few things I have read here on the Forge suggest that the list ought to be quite constrained and perhaps limited to those on offer in the main book + supplements.  They seem quite limited to me and I instinctively want to expand them, however I am wary of doing so in an ill-considered way.  Allowing player suggestions seems to invite exploitation (Will description: ‘Incredibly lucky’… ok so it doesn’t really fit, but you can see how players might seek to make it as open ended as possible so as to call upon the extra die for as many occasions as possible).

5) Surprise
The announcement phase allows adjustment of actions.  What happens when a new character enters the fray unbeknownst to the characters (inconspicuous demon or whatever).  How is the element of surprise handled?  Are players allowed to target the newly entering character before their characters are aware of the threat? (I suspect the answer is ‘no’ and they have to wait until the hostile character’s presence is known to the player character).

6) Binding Rolls
The outcome of demon binding rolls  is supposed to be rolled in secret by the GM, but how does one do so when dice rolled are on the table.  Players will work it out pretty quickly.

7) Score descriptions
Do demons and other NPCs have score descriptions and can they call upon them as player characters do?

Once again, any input would be appreciated!

Adam

Hi Adam,

Me = little Dutch boy: "That ought to do it. I can take my finger out of this hole and go home now." And then ...

1)  Can you please confirm my understanding of the cost vs. duration of the various Demonic powers:
...
Is all of this accurate?

Also, if the demon wants to end the use of a conferred power (i.e. user is sorcerer) against the will of the sorceror then it calls for an opposed will roll.

2)  Sorcery on the fly.
...

3)  Demons summoned but not into a prep-prepared contain.
Will they hang around for the binding, attack, flee?  Given they want to be bound, is that enough to keep them in line or at least in the vicinity?  If you proceed straight into the binding after the summoning, does that keep them in line?

4)  Score descriptions – are they fixed or not.
Switching tacks a little here.A few things I have read here on the Forge suggest that the list ought to be quite constrained and perhaps limited to those on offer in the main book + supplements.  They seem quite limited to me and I instinctively want to expand them, however I am wary of doing so in an ill-considered way.  Allowing player suggestions seems to invite exploitation (Will description: ‘Incredibly lucky’… ok so it doesn’t really fit, but you can see how players might seek to make it as open ended as possible so as to call upon the extra die for as many occasions as possible).

5)  Surprise
The announcement phase allows adjustment of actions.  What happens when a new character enters the fray unbeknownst to the characters (inconspicuous demon or whatever).  How is the element of surprise handled?  Are players allowed to target the newly entering character before their characters are aware of the threat? (I suspect the answer is ‘no’ and they have to wait until the hostile character’s presence is known to the player character).

6)  Binding Rolls
The outcome of demon binding rolls  is supposed to be rolled in secret by the GM, but how does one do so when dice rolled are on the table.  Players will work it out pretty quickly.

7)  Score descriptions
Do demons and other NPCs have score descriptions and can they call upon them as player characters do?

Ron, thanks for your answers.  I'm glad to see that I was on track with much of my thinking.

I note your comment about not assuming that unbound demons are raving carnivorous and mindless fiends.  This also accords with my thinking.

I've now done quite a bit of reading here at the Forge about score descriptions (or is it descriptors? I see both in use) and I think I now understand why you recommend the list be constrained to a set of choices that collectively and separately fit the setting.  As someone else put it, they also collectively answer the question 'what is a Sorcerer' for a given game.