Hello my name is Lucas and this is my first shot at these boards. I have been working on my game system off and on for the past few years and am almost ready to playtest (everything is by hand so I have to type it up). Lots of good people suggested I check it out.

The system that I am working with is a point buy creation and spending system with percentile rules. Races cost points to keep them balanced without having to handicap a concept for a level adjustment. There are no levels either. Templates is the term I am using for classes, and since it is point buy there is no requirement to take a template, they just bring a narrow package of skills together for about 3/4 to 4/5 the cost of buying skills together, almost like a second race purchase.

As I get ready for playtesting I have 2 rule variants that I will use as control factors in the different playtest groups. One brings magick types and weapon categories to the same standard as a skill and the other variant makes them an ability with smaller skill groups governing them.

Skills will be done in such a way that as they progress the dice will no longer have to be rolled for lesser tasks. This allows for a Passive and Focused status for each skill.

The rules will be tweaked to also generate a superhero genre game as well as a space opera/scifi game. That is why I chose the title Modus Vivendi (Way of Life) because it can adapt to any genre because the game is all about how your character chooses to live their life.

What I would like to know is what kind of experiences people have had with point buy systems as well as perventile systems. And in as system like this what is a good point level to set for things as well as average experience to dole out at the end of each session so skilling up is not too fast or too slow.

The website needs a little fleshing out but it can be found at www.modusvivendirpg.webs.com

Here's my two cents:

I think point buy systems can be good, but they present two problems. First is balance, making sure that one set of skills is not significantly better than everything else. Point buy is great because it allows for more choice and flexibility; but if you're options are Superman or retard, that's not much of a choice. Your decisions on precisely how to balance it will have a deep effect on the game mechanics. Also on the topic of balance, be very careful with disadvantages.

The second problem is that point buy systems don't really enforce character roles. Using templates can help, but you should make sure that they are tied in some way to your setting. Point buy systems are good at making the 'walking sword' type characters who are nothing but a set of combat stats.

I know balance will be hard. In point buy systems it is really easy to become the combat monster. Any ideas on how to make "lesser" skills as appealing to a hack/slash player as to a roleplayer. Probably the best thing I can think of is not having XP tied to what you killed.

With regards to your first post. Here's my thoughts on using a d100. Dice mechanics can either be additive or subtractive.

• Additive: [tt]roll + skill vs DC[/tt]
• Subtractive: [tt]skill - DC vs roll[/tt]

Here, DC refers to any modifiers that aren't part of the character himself. that make a roll harder. In both cases, a higher value on the left means a success. D&D uses additive mechanics for everything I think. GURPS uses subtractive mechanics for it's regular skill rolls.

In practice, subtractive systems tend to scale poorly, but that depends on how it's done. Thy have a significant advantage over additive systems in that they keep the DC down to a reasonable number. Trying to implement an additive system with a d100 means you'll end up with DC's around 100 or 200.

Before I talk about XP, one quick way of making a skill more appealing is to make it 'larger'. For example instead of having a separate skill for chemistry, physics, math etc, just have one for science (or even more extreme, one skill for all academic knowledge).

XP is a system's way of saying to a character "this is what your goal in life is". Tying XP to killing is basically saying "your goal is to kill things" (a nice way of saying "you should be a homicidal maniac"). In the name of roleplaying, you often end up with characters that should be normal people, but act like homicidal maniacs anyways.

There are many other ways of handling XP. One simple way is to make it automatic (e.g. you get 1 skill point per session). There are other ways of handling it too. In Warhammer, characters get XP for all sorts of encounters, whether or not they contain carnage; they also gain Insanity Points as the game progresses. This is cool because it means that character development isn't simply a matter of gaining more skills till you become God himself.

I'm working on a similar mechanic at the moment. Freaky life-threatening things can cause a character to gain Fear or Rage. These have temporary effects, Fear increases defense and decreases while Rage has roughly the opposite effect. Once the event is over, those effects pass. In the long term, the amount of Rage & Fear a character gets drives the character development (both of skill points and insanity points). Basically, the good soldiers are the ones who have undergone mental stress and survived. The good soldiers are also disillusioned and often a bit traumatized.

This brings me to my goal. Hemingways's "In modern war, there is nothing sweet or fitting in your dying. You will die like a dog for no good reason" sets the stage. Fighting is something the characters fear, but are inevitably drawn towards.

My mechanic probably isn't appropriate for your system. You'll have to decide how you want the people in your world to develop and what kind of roles are appropriate.

I also have a reputation and renown system. Legacy and Legend
Every point goes to your renown or legend.
Points are divvied up to 3 categories Hero, Adventurer, Villain. When you die or retire whichever column has more points is what your legacy is. 100pts Hero 59pts adventurer 10pts villain you have 169 Legend and you have a Heroic Legacy.

Without knowing a lot more about your game, it's hard to tell you if a percentile system is appropriate to your purpose. You might get better feedback if you tell us what your game is about, what the characters do, what the players do, and how the game mechanics make those things happen.

I can talk a little about my experiences with percentile systems, though.

Percentile systems have a couple cool things going for them.

1) The number is exactly the chance of success. Roll dice; compare directly to stat. This is no different than any single-die-roll system (80/100 in a percentile system is no different than 16/20 in a d20 system).

2) You can multiply percentages to get new percentages. Multiply 80% times 90% and you have a 72% chance of succeeding. This does awesome things, but since the math is hard, it's best left to computer games, not tabletop games.

3) The 1-100 range gives you a lot of resolution. Reward systems can give +1% increases to skills, for example.

Percentile systems have a few disadvantages.

1) You're always trying to roll low to succeed. Rolling high is more fun for some players.

2) Most of the math you do with numbers that can range up to 100 has a high handling time. Most %tile systems use subtractive modifiers (e.g., roll d100 with a -20 penalty because you're wounded). Quick: What's 72-47? Worse, some %tile systems multiply or divide these 2-digit numbers. What's 72% times 47%? What's 67% divided by 4?

3) Do you really need 1% resolution? Most people can really only hold 4-7 numbers in their head, so 4-7 is probably the right cardinality for ranges.

4) A lot of percentile systems end up letting stats grow beyond 100%, which seems bizarre. It suddenly becomes clear that the 100% rating doesn't mean anything special. If you're going to do that, why use a percentile? Is a Strength 140 character really 40% stronger than the maximum? 40% stronger than what?

5) Percentile dice often involve bizarre dice and bizarre table rules about dice. I hate actual d100's -- you know the ones that look like golf balls? And I hate having to declare which d10 is my 100's. Sure you, can use the 00,10,20...90 "d10," but not everyone has one.

Often, there's no reason a designer can't convert a d100 system to a d10 or d20 system with the same results and less handling time in play. D&D 3E/4E, for example, has 5% resolution with most bonuses in the +0 to +10 range, which is pretty manageable math for most people, plus you get to aim for high rolls rather than trying to roll under (low) to win.

You could convert your game to a d10 system easily. Just divide all your numbers and points by 10. Switch things around so you roll high.

This is the User formerly known as Modus Vivendi. As my wife and I are developing multiple games and doing design work as well, our umbrella name is Rabbit Hole Games & Design. Therefore I have set up this username to keep from confusing myself on my own postings.

ModusVivendi wrote:
Points are divvied up to 3 categories Hero, Adventurer, Villain. When you die or retire whichever column has more points is what your legacy is.

Those are the kind of roleplaying hooks I am looking for. Like playing 7th sea and starting with a few points in a bg that need to be resolved before they go away.

In the Traits/Flaws, Advantages/Disadvantages there are some things that can be taken that start you with bonuses to those. Depending on the character concept or story either Hero or Villain points are an advantage. Being a rogue with too many hero is like a Robin Hood, while it may also lead villainous associates think of you as a wildcard when doing joint jobs.

This is the very basis of the game.

Modus Vivendi: Way Of Life: Mechanics Of Play
The core of Modus Vivendi is the way that skills and actions are taken. Every character has a chance at just about anything, which is why everything is broken down into ranks on a scale of 100. The Narrator determines the difficulty and the player has to roll within their succession chances to succeed. If their chance to succeed is already higher than the difficulty then they can automatically succeed or take a chance on spectacularly succeeding or drastically failing.
Example Difficulties
5: Taking notice of an ogre trying to hide behind a normal sized chicken.
99: Doing a task so fantastically open and blatant that there is no possible way that it could not have been you. Then while holding the offending object in hand, grabbing the first bystander and convincing them that they did it. All the while you also are convincing the remaining bystanders of the other person’s guilt as well.
99 and must spectacularly succeed: Being the ogre trying to hide behind the normal sized chicken, and the other person is 5 feet away.
Rolling The Dice
Passive Rolls: No dice are used in a passive role. Passive Rolls are when the total of a skill is higher than the difficulty of the action to be taken. Every skill has a passive total to easily look at when playing the game. Combat and magic cannot do more than the base of damage if successful on a passive action.
The Passive Formula
(Main Stat / 5) + (Instinct / 5) + Skill = Passive Number
Example
(Coordination 45 / 5 = 9) + (Instinct 35 / 5 = 7) + 1 Hand Swords 35 = 51
Therefore any difficulty of 51 or below does not need to be rolled
Active Rolls: Any roll where the player makes an actual rolled attempt at a skill, either because the skill is higher than the target number or because they want to try and spectacularly succeed or possibly fail. Actively attempting combat and magic is the best way to get through bigger obstacles but very time consuming against the smaller but numerically larger hordes of minions.
The Active Formula
(Stat / 5) + Skill = Success Total
Example
(Coordination 50 / 5 = 10) + 1 Hand Swords 50 = 60
Therefore if the difficulty is 60 or less the player just needs to roll within their success total. If the target number is any higher, the player must roll as far deep into their total as the difficulty is above it.
Further Examples
Using the example given in the active total above, here are some examples of how it works.
52: Succeeds on a roll of 60 or less
66: Succeeds on a roll of 54 or less
99: Succeeds on a roll of 21 or less
99MC: Even though 21 or less would normally succeed, this category can only be attained with a roll of 1-5 (More if the player’s total has gone above 100)

Statistics
Power: The strength and force through which a character acts. This stat governs how much the character can carry and how much extra damage they can manage to muscle into a blow. Power lifters and fighters normally have a higher power stat.

Agility: How quick and nimble a character is. Agility helps in a variety of skills, like dodge and tumbling. A gymnast would be someone with a high agility stat.

Coordination: This is the stat that most combat characters will be concerned with. This is the stat that controls their eye-hand movements. Besides combat this is well adjusted for craftsmanship and other skills that take meticulous actions of the hands.

Endurance: Quite literally how long a character can endure physical trials. Runners, swimmers, and other athletes are likely to have high scores in this stat.

Vitality: This determines how healthy a character is. Resistance to poisons to the amount of damage they can take. A character that has a high vitality would be a fighter that comes back from a beating in the early rounds.

Competence: Competence is a lot like physical power or coordination, only on a mental level. This is your intelligence and the use of that intellect for knowledge purposes. This is also one of the governing stats of magic. Characters with high competence levels are mages and scholars.

Willpower: This is the vitality and endurance of the mental world. Sometimes when the body has given out the mind must force it's way onward. This is also the stat that pushes the character's will onto his surroundings. Once again mages have this in spades, but a good warrior would do good to carry around a good deal of it as well.

Cunning: Problem solving and outwitting another character. Sleight of hand, games of chance, and other skills of that nature use this stat to add to their effectiveness. Rogues, scouts, and others who think on their feet have high cunning scores.

Influence: Anything that can sway the hearts and minds of others. Charm, seduction, leadership, and intimidation are some of the skills tied to this one. Bards, captains, and politicians are some of those that make the best use of this stat.

Instinct: The five senses of a character's perception range. Vision, hearing, and smell, as well as knowing where you are in relation to other objects. This is why the Instinct stat is added to all passive numbers. Of all character types it is the animals that have the best instincts.

Two questions: Do you see this game as doing anything different than, say, GURPS, and if so what?

Second, can you talk a little more about what you expect your playtest groups to do?

Mr White, the first question is a little hard to answer since I have never had the opportunity to play GURPS. I will have to find a gamestore nearby to learn about GURPS.

The second question is easier. Since my system is completely point buy a la White Wolf, Hero System, and 7th Sea / L5R. First and foremost is always of course to see if it is fun, but because of pointbuy I am recruiting a few "Munchkins" / MinMaxers to see just how badly they can break the system at creation. I also have 2 variants of the main rules to see which is better. Having all the weapons / magic types as skills themselves as well as having them be abilities with a smaller set of skills to facilitate their use. For these I am going to try a semi simple method of test.

Quicktest Groups- 1 group for each set of rules. 3, 1 month 1 time a week sessions with tweaks between each month of play.

Longhaul Groups- 1 group for each set of rules, played over 4 months in 1 time a week sessions. This should show how many and if any, house rules spring up to fix things and see how close they are to the tweaks from feedback from the quicktest grouops.

Lucas, I think you may be missing the point of some of the replies you've received.  I think what Bill is getting at is this: There are a LOT of "generic" systems out there, each with their own slight differences.  Some of them, like GURPS and Savage Worlds are very popular.  Some of them are very obscure.  The ones that succeed tend to have their own niche in the generic RPG market.  GURPS is "realistic" with sourcebooks for everything, and an extremely detailed point-buy system tested over vany years.  I also think GURPS gets by a lot on being older and therefore more well known and better trusted than other games.  Savage Worlds has carved a niche for itself with its mantra "Fast, Furious, Fun!" It does something GURPS doesn't, which is get off the ground with minimal prep, play through very quickly, and allow you to fight big battles quickly and easily

I think what people are trying to tell you is that you need to tell us what your system does better than other systems.  What's its niche?  Then you need to make sure that the system you're writing supports that niche.  You need to know what experience people will get out of playing your game, and how the system supports them having this experience.  It's cool to write a "generic" or "universal" RPG, but you need to know what it brings to the table that other systems don't, otherwise they may as well play something they already own and know.

You also seem to be making a lot of unexamined assumptions about how an RPG should work.  For example, I don't see any analysis of why characters need a race, a class, a list of stats and skills, and experience points that improve those skills.  What do those things bring to your game?  Why are you using them, other than the fact that a number of other games use them? 

My sense is that you've had a lot of experience playing in a relatively small set of games.  I think the best thing to do to help yourself as a game designer is to play a lot of games, and to play a lot of games that are nothing like what you've played before.  Just reading games is a useful excercise as well.  That doesn't have to break your pocket book.  There are a lot of great free games out there.  I compiles a list of ones I like at my website, here: http://simoncarryer.googlepages.com/links

Of those, "The Pool" and "The Shadow of Yesterday" are particularly well known and loved.  Even if you hate the games, and would never want to play them, reading them will give you a good idea of the range of possibilities in RPG design.

Cheers,

Simon

Just checked, and my link for the Pool is broken.  Go here: http://www.randomordercreations.com/thepool.rtf

GURPS Lite is available as a free download.

By the way, it may sound like I am getting defensive but I am not. I am indeed taking these constuctive criticisms to heart and learning a bit about more game systems and such to understand what I am attempting a little more.

After looking over the GURPS Lite, thank you Adam Dray for the link, I have a few examples of things that I have or have not shown that are nuances to my game that may or may not add to the experience on an individual level.

Natural "Rolls"- As mentioned on the first page, when your skill/stat combo are better than the target number, you don't actually have to roll the dice. This is usable on any skill including combat skills. Of course you cannot Spectacularly/Critically pass or fail by doing this.

Unlike a true sandbox game, I am actually working on a setting for each game type and am making everything playable in the game. For instance using the Sentience and/or Anthropomorphic advantages, animal only, allow you to play as if it was Narnia or Disney's Robin Hood (Fox version).

I know that a lot of what I am doing will seem familiar to people who play a nice variety of RPGs. I am taking what I like and molding it to something, not trying to completely reinvent the wheel. The Natural/Passive rolls are meant to speed up the gameplay and allow for more description to what you are doing,

I am thinking of adding a creativity bonus so it is not always watered down to "I slash with my sword... roll dice". I liked playing martial arts characters in 3.0/3.5 D&D but after a session or two of trying to describe the awesome (in my mind) way I was attacking, It literally became "I punch" or "I Kick" and the ever popular "Flurry of Blows". With bonuses to creativity and the (at times) lack of dice during combat, players can once again find meaning to their Crane Kicks and Spinning Tarzan Jiujutsu.

I am also putting some creativity house rules that have come across my game tables into the game as actual rules. Why should a player not be rewarded in game for writing the adventure down as a story to share with the group? What about the person who really gets into character creation and has 5 pages of sketches or a 15 page background story for their character? (previously drawn/written versions usable at DM discretion) The people who take the time to get creative (normally with no motivation besides self satisfaction) should be rewarded with bonus points. For one thing this helps the creativity level of the table by giving incentive for the normally hum drum players to do something to catch up to the points that a writer, artist, musician, and so forth will likely rack up due to their drive to add to the experience.

These things could be as simple as making a playlist (with their legally acquired music of course) to play during the game or for character themes and whatnot. One of my favorite campaigns someone made a playlist for the sessions, and every time we kicked down a door to go in and fight the good fight, there was the theme to Cops/Bad Boys. We kicked in doors a lot to earn that spot on the playlist, ah barbarians.

I would even think about putting in a provision for commissioning artwork by players. For every X amount spent on their character, ship, etc they would get X amount of points. With some artists out there this could rack up the points in a couple of illustrations.

Race importance is only really for the fantasy and space games, as most Super genre characters are human with different origins to explain their abilities. But in my fantasy game version there will be some fun additions to some of the races that will make them feel different. Even Humans have something that makes them more than an extra feat at level 1, and 4 extra skillpoints thereafter.

If it wasn't 2:00 AM I could probably go a little more but at this point it has become a ramble. So I will end this post here.

No here.

Ok maybe here.

Good grief I need caffein.

Lucas, I'm glad that you're not feeling attacked in this thread, but I'm concerned that you're not hearing the critiques either.  I'm not getting what you want out of this thread.  I'm not seeing you answer any of the questions you've been asked by Adam, Bill, and I.  At this stage it's not useful for us to hear more about the mechanics of your game. 

What we need to hear is the experience you want players to have in the game.  We want to know the effect you're trying to create.  There are no objectively "good" rules.  We can only tell you what we think of your rules once we know what they're trying to achieve.  I certainly don't know what that is, and I get the sense that you don't either.

I'm not the boss of this thread, but I'd like to strongly advise you to take a few days, or even a week, to read and digest some of the games you've been linked to, and also to go and read some of the threads in the Actual Play forum.  Posting an Actual Play thread is a great way to learn a lot about your own play preferences, so that's a good option too.  Once you've done that, I really think you'll have a much more productive discussion here.

Hey, Lucas.

The GURPS model is basically a simple core rulebook with expansions for different settings. If there's a setting that interests you, GURPS has probably published a source book for it already. A little fishing on the web will prove that out.

Other game systems have done similar things. For example, Palladium publishes numerous games that all use the same rules. They differ from the GURPS model a bit. Instead of a core book plus setting expansions, each setting book is treated like a new game, with all the rules you need for play. That means repeating a lot of stuff that was in other books, but I don't think the fans cared. If you know how to play one of the Palladium games, you can pick up one of the others pretty quickly.

Of course, D20 System (and OGL) have done the same thing. There are dozens (hundreds?) of new games out there that use the D20 rules licensed from D&D 3rd Edition or D20 Modern, with their own additions and settings.

My main concern is that you're not aware of many of these, so you don't know 1) what has come before (so you are just reinventing the wheel) or 2) who your competition is (since you're trying to make money off this). If you didn't have a commercial interest and were just doing this for fun, I'd be way less pushy about this. Before you go and get a second mortgage or something, please understand the market you're getting into.

I am starting to understand what is meant by these forums. I am going to do as suggested, read a few more rpgs and decide what I want players to experience and not how they get to the experience, over the next week or two. I may post a little in the meantime but not much. So don't think I am hurt and just taking my ball and going home. I really do like the constructive criticism, and appreciate it more now that I am starting to understand it the way it was meant to be understood.

Anyone who would like to contact me through IM and help guide me there can reach me in the following manner.

GoogleIM: LucasPuryear@gmail.com
AIM: DBACKmerc1
YahooIM: TitanLP2001
MSN: DBACKmerc1@aol.com

Taking some time to think things out thoroughly is a time-honored practice here. You have my contact info if you want to chat.