Hi all,

as a couple of you out there might remember, I've been struggling with a reward mechanic for a game I'm building. For everyone else, the original post is "Experience Points - what's the point? Alternatives?". Unfortunately I haven't had the time or money to purchase other games and evaluate alternatives to the system presented in D&D, but I can't help it that the game bubbles in the background of my mind.

I've come up with a new mechanic that is quite unlike anything I've seen in my own limited experience, so I'd like to toss it to the crowd to see what you think. I believe in handing out credit where credit is due; the kernel of the idea comes from the "Immediate Experience Points", presented in a game called Even Dice posted on the Forge recently and created by "Danny". However, the mechanic is different enough that, not only does it deserve to be called a new mechanic, I sincerely believe it is an entirely new mechanic altogether.

The mechanic is meant to avoid rewarding particular, preset behaviours, but also NOT allow the players to simply grow their characters in arbitrary directions and without limit, with no connection to what's going on in the game. The actual goal of the mechanic is to encourage the players to develop their characters in the direction they naturally gravitate towards anyway, whether that be by subconscious behaviour or intention.

Half of the mechanic is what I'm calling "Chits" (to differentiate from XP and other mechanics since they're very different, and because "Chits" is a thematically relevant name). The player can spend these on skills and powers to grow the character, but there's an exchange rate: skills and powers triple in cost if the player spends them between gaming sessions, or on breaks. They also double in cost if spent over the Void size (discussed below). Clearly, then, in order to get make most efficient use of the points, they should only be spent in game, reactively. Chits can also be blown for temporary boosts. For example, a player can burn a Chit to get a temporary boost in an ability score (i.e. higher than simply paying for a score that high); this effect is limited in that each point becomes increasingly expensive. (I'll figure out the timespan of the increase later, or maybe work it into the game so it's flexible.)

The mechanic is predicated on the assumption that there will be major stages or goals, a bit like "character levels" in D&D but not quite so rigid in structure. To avoid railroading, the GM will be urged to offer several goals, and to allow the players to choose one of them or to make up their own. However, the basic major-goal outline is necessary for the structure of this mechanic, because at the beginning of the game, and after each major goal is completed, the GM allots a flood of Chits, enough to grow the characters to the point where they can deal with the next goal, plus some extra for leeway.

Before I continue talking about how else Chits can be spent, I should talk about the other half of the mechanic, the Chit Void. When a player spends Chits, they usually go into his Chit Void. The Chit Void has a certain current size, so that if the player spends points and exceeds the size of the void, all points that don't fit cost extra (becoming more expensive and possibly denying the player the ability to buy the skill or power in the first place). The Chit Void has a zero size when the game starts, but the GM grows it's size after an encounter in the game, such as a combat or social encounter. (In fact, I'm thinking of having possibly three Voids for social, mental, and physical, which grow the character in those domains) The thing about the Void is that any time it increases in size, the player must spend chits to fill it. The exception to this rule is when the player is out of Chits, at which point the GM is disallowed from increasing the Void size, so all further encounters for that character become meaningless in terms of growth. In addition to discouraging players from maximizing their characters early, this shows why the mechanic is predicated on completing a quest since, as I mentioned, a flood of new Chits is only granted after the completion of a quest or other major goal.

The exception to the above rules is at character creation, where the Chits can be spent at their base cost and they do not go into the Chit Void.

There's a twist to Chits, however, that makes them more interesting than this. The players can spend them to alter the game itself, such as by narrating in a conveniently-available hammer behind the cobbler's desk, or a random boulder happening to fall and block the path of escaping demons. The less likely the item or coincidence, the more expensive it is in Chit-value (at the GM's option). Items that are usually available don't typically need chits spent on them, such as an empty beer stein at a bar, but the player may spend a Chit in a pinch to narrate obtaining one if the GM has ruled that none were nearby. Narrations need not be item- or event-related, but when they affect characters, they're either more expensive or can't be used. For example, you can't spend chits just to will an opponent dead, or even to lose a point of Strength. You also cannot expend chits to have your character do a funky ninja move; this would require a skill- or ability-related check. Chits spent in this way do not fall into the Chit Void.

There's one exception to the method gaining of Chits by completing quests: a player can get a few more Chits by accepting a penalty from the GM. The player can specify a number of Chits, and the GM can offer a penalty as a consequence. If accepted, the Chits are granted and the penalty is given. The GM is encouraged to be creative and to choose a penalty that will genuinely "hurt" or will match the current circumstances. Such penalties include: loss of a limb, blindness, death of a beloved familiar, and so on. Obviously, since the player has no control over the penalty, this option should only be used as a last resort. On the other hand, instead of playing down this option, players will be encouraged to actively consider it when they're out of other options or prefer not to spend "regular" chits, since it is an opportunity to make the character a little more unique: the character could have an artificial magic leg created, start wearing a cool eyepatch, or acquire a new familiar with a different set of abilities.

Finally, one further use of chits that applies to our game's default world, but need not be used in other worlds that our game can support, is in the creation of magic items. Although there will be some standard magic items floating around, such as fire swords or maybe invisibility rings, the really special stuff requires chits. Magic items created this way are assumed to have been built between sessions, and so are automatically expensive. This high cost is used even in character creation. Unlike with other item costs, chits spent on such magic items do go into the Chit Void. The individual chit cost of the item depends on the power; this too we'll have to calculate and put in a table in the game manual or something.

So, problems? Flaws? Ideas? Improvements? Thanks in advance for any responses,

Daniel

One quick question, if the players are out of options and decide to trade a penalty for chits is the penalty explained by the GM as part of the story (the guards dagger draws a line up your cheek through your left eye, rendering it useless) or is it assumed that the penalty always existed?

I am not sure I am completely clear on all of your rules for 'Chits', but there is one issue that is I see:

The player can spend these on skills and powers to grow the character, but there's an exchange rate

Chits can also be blown for temporary boosts.

mjbauer .. it depends when it happens. Mostly, the GM invents the penalty and weaves it into the story. It is possible, however, that a PC will have expended all his chits and want to get a little more between play sessions in order to prepare the character (say, before the final battle with the big boss). This is far more expensive so I don't expect it would ever happen, but if it does, it could be woven into the history of the character/world and assumed it was always there.

Charlie wrote:
I am not sure I am completely clear on all of your rules for 'Chits', but there is one issue that is I see:

(A) The player can spend these on skills and powers to grow the character, but there's an exchange rate

AND

(B) Chits can also be blown for temporary boosts.

With these two above options in mind, I can tell you that if I (or a lot of other players) played this game, I would never use my points on the latter option. You are effectively penalizing the character of the player who wants or needs short-term boosts. If someone were to consistently roll poorly, and needed to spend Chits on the temporary benefits, their character's advancement would be slowed compared to the other characters.

This is a problem you see in a lot of more traditional RPGs (Shadowrun comes to mind, though I am not sure about the later editions).

How does the game address this problem, or is there a way that you can separate Chits spent on permanent growth and Chits spend on temporary bonuses (or narrative authority) without sacrificing the other?

ShallowThoughts wrote:
In fact, the latter option is intended to be used rarely. It is meant for the very specific circumstance that the PCs are in a bind and the character making the roll needs to win it for the sake of the party, but his level of ability in the domain is very poor (or heck, isn't necessarily poor, but the difficulty of the task is very high).

Excellent questions Selene X-)    I'm going to be talking about levels and classes such as you'd find in D&D just because it's easier to explain the system that way, even though the game ultimately won't have a fixed level/class structure. (Sorry for the long post)

Selene wrote:
The problem with setting up the option to permanently burn your XP source as a "last resort" is that it leads to a death spiral if the GM misjudges encounter difficulty. If a GM has made things far too hard for the PCs' ability levels, then the players have to resort to burning their Chits for those temporary bonuses to avoid death. This means they cannot use those Chits to advance, making subsequent encounters even more difficult, requiring them to burn any Chits they have to scrape by, and so on.
<snip>
The edition of Shadowrun I played had an interesting way of separating the currencies for temporary and permanent bonuses. There were two kinds of "Karma": Good Karma and Karma Pool. Good Karma was basically XP -- you spent it to upgrade your character. Karma Pool was a pool of dice used to give yourself temporary bonuses; it refreshed periodically. You had to keep track of how much Good Karma you'd earned in addition to how much was unspent. When your earned Good Karma hit certain thresholds, you gained a point of Karma Pool.

Selene wrote:
It took me a few tries to understand your explanation of the Chit Void. This is my understanding:

• Players have Chits which they spend ("commit to the Chit Void") to upgrade their characters.
• Beyond a certain threshold (the size of the Chit Void) of spent Chits, the costs for upgrading go up.
• After an encounter, the GM can increase the threshold
• When the GM increases the threshold, players must spend Chits until they meet or exceed the threshold
• If a player has no unspent Chits, the GM cannot increase that player's threshold

Selene wrote:
Some questions came to mind, mostly details and edge cases:

• Does the GM increase the Void size for all players at once, or individually?
• Related, does the GM increase the Void size by the same amount for all players?

Selene wrote:

• Let's say a player has 1 unspent Chit. Can the GM increase that player's Void size by 2?

Selene wrote:

• Let's say a player is 1 below the threshold (has room for one more Chit in his/her Void). The player wants to buy a skill that costs 3 Chits normally and 6 Chits when the threshold has been reached. Does the player pay the normal price or the increased price?

Selene wrote:

• Let's say a player has spent 4 Chits beyond the Void threshold, and the GM increases the Void threshold by 2. Does the player still count as 2 Chits beyond the Void threshold?

Selene wrote:

• The only time the Chit Void has room is right after an encounter, before the player spends Chits to fill it. It will never be empty between sessions. Does this mean that a player who wants to spend Chits "between sessions" has the upgrade prices increased twice?

Selene wrote:
I'm most interested in the limited-player-authorship aspects of Chits as you've described them. I think that if you Chits for player authorship come out of the same pool as Chits for character advancement, you won't see much player authorship at all. So if you want to encourage players to contribute to and alter the setting in that way, the cost (in the economic sense!) will have to be much lower.

Selene wrote:
Using Chits for magic items sounds neat. I'd want the benefits of making such items with Chits to be comparable to the benefits of spending the Chits directly on character advancement, so that Chit-enchanted items are another flavor of character advancement.

Selene wrote:
I'm a little iffy on penalties as you've described them. On the one hand, you say you want them to be a last resort for the desperate, and on the other hand you say that players should look into them to make their characters unique.

One thing you could do is explicitly allow bargaining for the penalties. So if a player wants 10 Chits, the GM can suggest something, and the player might then suggest a less-extreme penalty for 6 Chits instead. Or a player could come up with a penalty they're willing to deal with and let the GM decide on the Chit value.

Selene wrote:
I'm also wondering about the nature of the penalties. I know that in most games where you can take on disadvantages for more points at character creation, many players will take disadvantages that have minimal impact on their play and do their best to avoid situations where the disadvantages matter. The problem is exacerbated when a disadvantage only has in-fiction effects rather than mechanical effects.

One way to solve that is to <snip>
Another way is <snip>

ShallowThoughts wrote:

Selene wrote:

• Let's say a player has 1 unspent Chit. Can the GM increase that player's Void size by 2?

No, for the reasons mentioned. Once the max Void limit is hit for a player in a given quest, that player is out of luck.

Firstly the economics of your penalty system probably need to be shifted; if people have to guess "appropriate value" streight, then that will be pretty tricky. It's like if you went on ebay and said "give me something I will pay 20 quid for". Instead it is better if one scales up to match the other, either starting with something very extreme and scaling down until they accept it, or suggesting something and pushing the price up until they do. The later is the fate systems mechanism, although their system has the added interest that avoiding the GMs suggestions costs, so eventually people will have to say yes. I suspect your system is designed to be more player centred. In that sense, perhaps people could ask for a difficulty at a certain bid, then change their required points higher if they wish, with either able to call it off. If you wish to you could allow "disadvantages" purely to act as justification for such misfortunes.

At this point we are basically talking the fate system, mixed with old shadowrun's karma. And that includes your idea for narrative control. I think that such systems are an amazing idea by the way, which is not surprising considering how much I like universalis, which is basically a massive expansion of the same concepts to the whole game system.

One thing that systems like yours do is allow you to decide how difficult the situation is for your character. For example, if you don't really want them to be in any risk, then you can make situations easier in return for not progressing that much. Conversely you can effectively make situations harder for yourself in order to have your character grow more. It allows you to play the "lucky level 2 guy in a level 5 game", although that will soon become untenable unless you mesh your various narrations into a persistent set of effects, effectively creating a comfort zone around that character in which they can safely remain level 2. There's a certain amount of metaphor there as you can tell! It also allows you to play the "tortured superman", although staying ahead of the curve is a lot harder in your game, meaning that the tortured superman should eventually get overtaken, especially if the disadvantages he takes have persistent effects.

Now on the chit void, I made a number of misunderstandings of how it works, all of which I like, to be honest: I thought that spending xp in a lump larger than the total existing xp spent cost double, which I found interesting: I suspect that such a system would be a new way of creating the old skill pyramid.

Lets look at the costing:

Say you spend 4xp to get a skill level of 4, well say the first xp is free, you can reach a skill level of 4 either by getting skills at level 1, 2, 3, 4 costing 10 points, wheras 10 points could be spent immediately on the 4, but only give you 2 points left.

How does this compare to other systems? Well it is probably quite annoying during char gen, as the stat you buy up is generally the first.

Actually hang on, I've made the "obvious game mechanic" approach of keeping the thing I'm supposed to be replacing! That idea only works if there is a specific chunk size, and so preserves the old skill pyramid, just adds an extra restriction on top.

So what does it do? Well presumably it stops people just saving up and so weakening in the short term, as they have to buy other things in order to get the quota up sufficiently. This would help with abilities that are unbalancing, and give a sort of "effective level" that allows you to gauge character ability a little better. This is helpful if some later abilities or higher skill levels make challenges appropriate to different skills at lower ratings useless, but it is an extra restriction.

I had some other misunderstandings, but that one took longer than I thought to write so I'll keep them to myself!

So now engaging with the system you actually wrote (hopefully), it seems like because you "have to spend them", then you might be better off not having them at all. What do I mean by that? Well suppose you are always getting 2xp per encounter and being forced to spend 2xp per encounter. Doesn't that mean you are just getting one advance every encounter? Or being able to choose to forgo an advance in order to do something now? In other words, I think that the chit void is a really strange concept, and you can make it a little easier: Every time the experience is less than the void expansion, you are basically generating a "missed advance" or "skipped xp" or whatever you want to call it. You can then do special stuff to get these back easier. So say you have a cooking contest between two of the characters and one of them wins while the other loses. Well one of them gets 5 missed build points, because they lost, but they can easily catch up by taking on a disadvantage to make up the difference. Now if you take on disadvantages greater than required to "catch up", then those are less efficient, making them "spare xp". Spending this spare xp on anything other than

What is the difference when talking about it this way? Well in this version, if everything goes nicely/normally, the GM just says "spend 5 chits on your character". If you want to do something clever, then you take chit debt/missed advances etc to cause events now. You let them get into so much debt, then you let them pay it off with extra disadvantages. Or they can take the disadvantages now, generating spare xp, which can also be spent directly, or used to pay for changes. Now how is this different from your system? Well if I understand your system correctly, it will give people a splurge of extra xp right as they start the new quest, meaning that to make the same happen in my version you would need to allow people to take on more debt just after they complete a quest, and less and less as time goes on, and they get closer and closer to completing the quest.

The other feature of the system is that suddenly, after about 8 missions, you say "all the xp I'm giving you from now on is spare, until you get on with completing the quest"

What is the result of this on gameplay? Well it means that just after completing a quest, you get this warm fuzzy glow that you can bask in; you can choose to learn very little and just spend all your chits on changes that make things go your way, and then as time goes on that capacity to get into debt reduces. Then at the end of the quest comes a point where you aren't really learning anything anymore, and you might as well get on with finishing the quest. Now I note that tactically, this suggests it might be best to shoot all your chits into interventions in the fiction during the first few missions, running yourself well below the void level, and just rely on the chits you get after the void stops growing to fill in the debt.

Is this what you want? Or have I misunderstood you and created yet another system!

Hmm weird, I appear to have stopped mid sentence! You get the idea though, "spare chits" spent on anything but world changes cost extra. Actually, that reminds me, what is the rational for not letting people spend xp between sessions? I know a number of people who like to sit back, and work out what their character should do, make up training scenes etc. I'm not sure how that detracts from the game style that you want to penalise it.