For the people here actually publishing games, what are you using for your layout and design? Are you using a DTP program, like Quark or Photoshop, or are you using a word processor, or something else? Please indicate whether you're creating PDF's or printing.

My personal experience:

I did Urge in PageMaker. I was pretty familiar with the program, although I could have done that layout much better.

I'm doing Paladin in Word. (My copy of PageMaker was pirated, and I started to get some morals recently.) The layout's done, and I like it a lot - I was surprised at how much I could do with Word. Still - I found it to have serious limitations. I understand - and correct me if I'm wrong, Ron - that Paul Mason did all of the new version of Sorcerer in Word, which blows my mind.

Next, I'm doing Donjon. I'm trying out Page Plus, a DTP program. I chose it because it seemed to have a lot of features and was only $85. So far, I like it more than PageMaker, which is surprising.

I used pagemaker for the PDF and print versions of Kayfabe as well as the ashcans for Wyrd and Charnel Gods. I also use photoshop and illustrator for graphics.

,Matt G.

I use PhotoShop 5.5 for graphics and PageMaker 6.5 for layout. I use that combo for both print and PDF. (I use Acrobat 5.0 for PDFs.)

I use Photoshop 6.5, Pagemaker, and Word XP. Dreamweaver for web.

Jake

I use much of the same as others:

Being a long-time Mac freak, I MUCH prefer QuarkXPress 4.0 or greater. However, I actually did the Godlike layouts in PageMaker 6.5. Pagemaker has some nice features (like auto page numbering and book creation), but I'm just far more proficient in Quark.

For most of my image/graphics work, I use Photoshop 5.5. This includes scanning, editing/touching up digital art, and creation of type effects as well as actual graphics. I often use Illustrator (8?) to create images/page treatments. That's how I did the Trollbabe logo, and how I am doing octaNe layout, Vegas Chic and all. Illustrator does an excellent job of _managing_ type, while importing that into Photoshop for groovy effects (dropshadows, shading, filtered effects, etc.)

For Web work, I use Macromedia Fireworks to design sites. I can't recommend that software enough (though the newest versions of Photoshop come damn close). I like it almost as much as I do my trusty QuarkXPress. I also use Dreamweaver to create pages and manage sites. Finally, I've created some things in Flash (3.0?) for online schtuff.

That about covers the waterfront. My only other nod goes to InDesign, which I've only tinkered with.

I absolutely despise Word for any kind of layout, and especially for PDF creation. That software and I don't get along. Perhaps it's a Mac thing.

Actually, I can't wait for Forgers to get a look at some of the layouts I did these last crazy few weeks. Eager to hear critiques. As for praise, skip it; just throw money.

Have a good one,
Matt

I used Pagemaker 7.0 for Eldritch Ass Kicking's lite layout. I use Photoshop 6.0 for images. I use Adobe Acrobat 5.0 for the PDFing.

I also use Microsoft Word 2001 for smaller games (the Cross, Kingdom of Glenn, Rodendom, etc.) and Corel Wordperfect (the Wild, new era). I use Dreamweaver 4.0 for some html, but do the rest by hand in the wonderful BBEdit Lite.

At home, I use Pagemaker 6.5, Photoshop 5.0, Acrobat 3.0 for stuff. I also use Word 98, Corel Wordperfect Suite 8, and QuarkXpress 4.0 as well. I'll use SimpleText or TextEditor for text files.

Since I use like four Macs and one PC, I highly recommend Macs. If someone out there is planning to spend a thousand or two on a new computer, I would recommend looking into any Mac, even a low end one. The new Mac OS X is not only very cool, it features PDF as the common system default file format. You can PDF from anything -- any application on Mac OS X. It utterly rocks. It could save a new publisher a bit of cash in the short haul.

Of course, I'm not really into computers, so why are you listening to me? :)

*cough*

Thanks,
Nathan

I've mostly migrated to Adobe InDesign 2 for most of my projects, with Photoshop 6 and Adobe Acrobat 4. Usually using Windows2K, but I'm on XP right now at the FanPro office and it's pretty nice, although it can be a little flaky - I've had explorer crashes when previewing something as small as six 20MB thumbnails in one directory.

I've been using Quark 4 on MacOS9 around the office for some projects, and while I can get to the destination I'm not near as confident in the journey.

Been a few months since I used PageMaker 6.5, but since I used it for a fair number of issues of The Shadowrun Supplemental and some other projects I can still throw things around with it - I'd just much rather throw things around with InDesign now.

In another life was a very successful DTP trainer for major institutions, another life;).

I don't think there is anything wrong with using a word processing ap vs. a layout ap for your book. It only matters when you look at what you are trying to accomplish. If your book is sparse with the art and you are not a manic about text then go with word. Quark can be used equally effectively with a MAC or PC and provides a much stronger layout package, ultimately with a smoother more controlled package. However the learning curve is much higher. It will also be necessary to use Quark to add any amount of significant artwork to the book and control text flow effectively.

For scanned artwork that is precreated I would suggest using a bitmap editor like Photoshop or CORELPhoto Paint and for logos and for images that you want to create using simple drawings a vectored program like Illustrator or CORELDraw is excellent.

Finally, I am not knocking Pagemaker, MS Publisher or any other similar ap for layout but be careful about using these. They are not always very well supported by printers. In a situation where the printer does not have the ap they may convert it, not tell you that they needed to do so and possibly charge you for the extra work. If it is a complex job, it may not come in as clean off of a conversion.

That's in my experience.

Regards

Clinton, which version of Pageplus? I used it a while ago (about 3 years, version 5 I think), but found that it didn't PDF things at all well. I'd be interested to hear results from a newer version.

Most of my work is done for the web, so I use Dreamweaver and Fireworks, and occasionally Freehand.

Not RPG related, but the company I work for lays out its books mostly in Word, then uses Acrobat to turn them into print ready PDFs.

-Matt

Matt,

I'm using version 8 of PagePlus. I've owned it for less than 24 hours, but so far, I'm liking it. I just created a PDF with it and Acrobat, and it seemed to turn out as well, if not better, than a PDF created with Word and Acrobat.

- Clinton

+ Quark 5.0 for book/mag layout
+ Photoshop 7.0 for images
+ Adobe Acrobat 5.0 and PDFactory for the PDF stuff
+ AutoPlay Media 4.0 for setups/interface
+ Dreamweaver MX/Flash MX for websites
+ MS Office Pro XP for documents
+ God for my co-pilot. Jesus as my gunner


What the hell am i doing posting? i should be getting back to doing artwork...


-
h

This question's not meant to accuse anybody, but: is it cost-effective to buy something like PageMaker for layout? When you're a one-man show - I write, edit, and layout my own games, leaving only art for someone else to do - the cost of PageMaker (over $500, last time I checked) eats up all your profits.

I see most of you are using PageMaker + Photoshop, which I know comes in over a grand together. I ended up going with PagePlus + Paint Shop Pro (www.jasc.com) and ended up spending just over $150 - which is about the same as my profits so far.

Well, for Le Mon Mouri, I used the Holy Trinity– Quark, Photoshop and Illustrator. For my money, you just can;t get any better. I absolutely despise Word and PageMaker is too clunky.

And of course, Acrobat is a must for PDFs. Postscript files run through that thing like crap through a goose.

-Aaron

I've been doing all my drawing lately in Xara X, as I find Illustrator a bit clunky for my tastes (I probably just haven't gotten used to it yet, I'm still trying). For bitmap and web stuff, I use Paint Shop Pro 7. All the character sheets that you see on my site were done in Word, then converted with Acrobat (natch).

I've been meaning to get into Quark and/or Pagemaker, but haven't had the time.

Wordpad & Paint.

Hey, when I have something worth a not-came-free-with-Windows program, I'll get a not-came-free-with-Windows program.

Seriously, it's like my brother with his stupid guitar playing. He had to buiy an Epiphone Casino because that was one of the guitars John Lenon used. I was like, why not just buy a good basic guitar, preferably an acustic why do you need an amp?, and learn how to play. If you stick with it enough, then get your stupid casino guitar.

Now, some here have indeed learned to play, some ebven distributing their game as a simple text file in the begining and have stuck with it and shown that getting higher-end software is actually a worthwhile investment. But I'll bet there are a few others here (and you're goddamn right this includes me) who are like "Hey, I have a great idea for an RPG! WHat's the 'right' software I need to publish it?" Guys, do you have a word processing program already loaded onto your computer? Just text? That's OK. It will do. Just write it. You aren't going anywhere until you just write it (and play it, and revise it and play some more, but that's another topic). Use what you have, and make something with it or else you'll just wind-up with a dusty guitar in your closet.

I have to agree with Jack here. We can talk all day about WP vs Layout and such but in actuality you should use whatever works best for you. If you let the price of a piece of software get in the way of your writing and creativity you are defeating the purpose.

So I guess the answer is no, its not worth it if you don't already have a high end program and you will be paying off the bill with 20 months worth of sales.

Regards,

Jack Spencer Jr wrote: Guys, do you have a word processing program already loaded onto your computer? Just text? That's OK. It will do. Just write it. You aren't going anywhere until you just write it (and play it, and revise it and play some more, but that's another topic). Use what you have, and make something with it or else you'll just wind-up with a dusty guitar in your closet.

I don;t know if I'm the one to talk since, lacking both software and expertise, I hired an outside typesetter. He used InDesign 2.0 and saved everything to PDF.

He found he liked the direct control he had and that Pagemaker had reached about the end stage of its development cycle.

Adobe does seem to have the DTP market pretty muhc wrapped around its finger, If you want to be compatible with your printer, get your PDFs to port over exactly, or generally be compatible with whatever you're doinbg, you need some Adobe program or another. Unfortunately, Adobe software is expensive as heck.

This is why publishing companies should be started by colleege students -- they get academic discounts and good package deals.

This is why publishing companies should be started by colleege students -- they get academic discounts and good package deals.

Michael Hopcroft wrote:
He found he liked the direct control he had and that Pagemaker had reached about the end stage of its development cycle.

Adobe does seem to have the DTP market pretty muhc wrapped around its finger

Unfortunately, Adobe software is expensive as heck.

Michael Hopcroft wrote: This is why publishing companies should be started by colleege students -- they get academic discounts and good package deals.

Clinton,

Sorry, I realize now what you are asking. Of course Quark, Photoshop, Illustrator are the standby of the industry and that is what we use. As far as PDFs the new incoming standard is a format called PDF X1a and we are in the process of converting to that standard now.

Hope that was better.

Regards,

Eugene,

No problem. What I'm doing here is trying to update my essay about how to publish games on the cheap. While Ron whittles away at game design, bringing knowledge to us all, I'm focusing on the technical side of things - how someone without a lot of capitol can start professionally publishing their RPG.

Matt Snyder wrote: I use much of the same as others:

Being a long-time Mac freak, I MUCH prefer QuarkXPress 4.0 or greater.

However, I actually did the Godlike layouts in PageMaker 6.5. Pagemaker has some nice features (like auto page numbering and book creation), but I'm just far more proficient in Quark.

so far, InDesign is a dream--all the features/power of XPress, with an interface even smoother than PageMaker (mostly). but i really wish it had *any* tools for helping with ToC or index generation

I'm using Serif's Page Plus DTP software, for decent features I can actually afford. Good look getting a printer to read that format, though. On the other hand, you can buy a second copy to give to your printer and still have spent less than on most other software. I'm told a new version will shortly appear with PDF output built in. Not having to shell out extra for Acrobat Writer would make it a very attractive package for our purposes, I'd think.

This question's not meant to accuse anybody, but: is it cost-effective to buy something like PageMaker for layout? When you're a one-man show - I write, edit, and layout my own games, leaving only art for someone else to do - the cost of PageMaker (over $500, last time I checked) eats up all your profits.

I see most of you are using PageMaker + Photoshop, which I know comes in over a grand together. I ended up going with PagePlus + Paint Shop Pro (www.jasc.com) and ended up spending just over $150 - which is about the same as my profits so far.

This question's not meant to accuse anybody, but: is it cost-effective to buy something like PageMaker for layout? When you're a one-man show - I write, edit, and layout my own games, leaving only art for someone else to do - the cost of PageMaker (over $500, last time I checked) eats up all your profits.

I see most of you are using PageMaker + Photoshop, which I know comes in over a grand together. I ended up going with PagePlus + Paint Shop Pro (www.jasc.com) and ended up spending just over $150 - which is about the same as my profits so far.

For the really whacked out types that don't pay for software (including your OS), these options don't quite work. What does work is LaTeX for the page layout and Gimp for the graphics.

The Gimp is easy enough to use, and it's even available for Windows. LaTeX is another story. It's more like programming than graphic design (a lot more). Font selection becomes vanishingly small (good luck using much beyond the 14 basic postscript fonts), but your typography will be rock solid and cross-references, TOC and List of Tables type things will be trivially easy. PDF output is possible, and the output looks quite nice.

The first edition of Dominion Rules was done with LaTeX, if you'd like an idea of what it's capable of. http://www.dominionrules.org

Price: free - I haven't paid for software in a long time, and that includes my operating system.