It's laughable to call this a first thought. I've taken magic back to formula almost as many times as character generation. So we'll call this a Born-Again First Thought. As I find that my problems with the magic system are twofold, I'll start with the simpler problem, which will form a basis for addressing the more complex problem of spell building, once I have this worked out.

Some background info, first:
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The basis for the magic system are the 5 elements (Earth, Water, Air, Fire, Void) Void can be used interchangeably with the term Spirit. You can cast purely elemental spells with the element alone. Other spell effects are generated by specific mixes of the elements, along thematic and symbolic lines.

Three of your attributes interface directly with spellcasting:
- Force directly influences how powerful of a spell you can cast. If your Force is 6, you're going to be able to cast spells up to Force 6.
- Aegis is your ability to resist the effects of spells. Exactly how this works is something I've never worked out to my satisfaction.
- Mana reflects your ability to draw power from the energies around you, rather than using your own lifeforce. Again, this is something I've never worked out to my satisfaction.
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A spell will have some basic stats: Effect, Range, Duration, Force, Casting Time, Drain.

Two example spells to aid discussion: (these spells aren't necessarily balanced; they're just examples)

Fireball
Effect: 5 damage with fire effects
Range: single target, LOS
Duration: instantaneous
Force: 5F
Casting Time: 2 rounds
Drain: 4

Silverwind
Effect: allows the caster to 'see' the air, enabling the ability to see air movement and disturbances
Range: self
Duration: sustained
Force: 2A
Casting Time: 5 rounds
Drain: 3

So let's say I have a character with the requisite skills to cast these spells, and the following Attributes: Force 6, Aegis 4, Mana 5

To cast fireball, I first need to allocate 5 Force to Fire. I can do this while casting. Two rounds later, I cast the spell. Then I deal with the Drain. The target of the spell's Aegis (we'll say it's also 4) has some effect on the spell.

Question 1: How do I "deal with Drain"? I've considered having it function as a 'damage reduction' stat, in the same way Toughness works.. But this means that I could cast Drain 5 and below spells all the live-long day, and never tire. That's not the effect I want. If you're careful, you should be able to cast moderately draining spells several times without resting, but it should have some sort of cumulative effect. I know what "drain" DOES (it functions just like damage from combat) I'm just not sure how Mana interacts with it.

Question 2: What affect does Aegis have on a spell? I've considered having it simply reduce the effective Force of the spell, such that it's treated as a Force 1 fireball instead of a Force 5, but this is too simplistic, and doesn't translate well to non-combat spells, or spells without a direct numeric component to the effect. If (for some reason) you wanted to avoid having a modified Silverwind cast on you, what's the difference between a Force 2 Silverwind and a Force 1 Silverwind? I've also considered having it be some sort of roll that simply negates the effect on a successful roll, but I don't like that either. Some variation on an effectiveness reduction is what I'd like, I'm just not sure how it'd work.

Hi Lance,

I guess my question is the same questions we've been asking all the new posters all this week.  What's the effect you want? What do you want casting a spell to feel like in play? What options are the players weighing when they decide to cast a spell?

I think sorting that out will help us work on more specific answers.

Feel. That's an interesting word. If it's possible, while still retaining the tactical crunch I like, I want it to feel like...

You're reaching out and grasping the raw stuff of the universe and twisting it, forming it within your grasp, bending it to your will. When the spell is cast, You feel the surge as you draw in energy, and it rips through your body and soul like a torrential flood. Raw willpower gives it shape and purpose, and it manifests elegantly into the spell you desire.

Forming the spell in your mind should be like forcing your thoughts into a pattern of colors and precise shapes. When you cast, the energy you've pours through that pattern like water through a sieve, and takes on the shape and colors of that pattern, becoming the spell you envisioned.

That's what it should feel like.

Decisions in spellcasting should be based around a desire for optimization and desired effect. As each spell is built of components, you should be able to cast it with variations. If you need the Silverwind spell to see currents of air, you can cast it as a self-only spell. If you need to cast it on someone else, perhaps you'll make it line of sight, or touch. Maybe your target has just shrugged off your fireball, so you'll want to reallocate your Force into Air in preparation for a blast of wind.

More specifically relating to my two questions... Casting spells should be a calculated risk. Is this one going to hurt? How long is it going to hurt? (damage has varying durations by type... some is essentially a brief stun, or fatigue requiring a little rest, or longer term damage requiring time to heal) Am I willing to accept the reduction in effectiveness, or should I take steps to reduce the drain, even if it means casting a weaker or more limited spell, or taking more time to do it?

The primary tactical concern for Aegis is that it, like Force, must be allocated. Allocating Aegis is a guessing game. Do I think he's going to cast a fire spell? I should push Aegis into Fire. Perhaps I think he's going to try to hit me with a mind control spell. I should split my Aegis between Void and Air. Maybe you have no idea what he's going to do, so you'll split your Aegis up evenly across several likely elements. This should have a positive effect, but a lesser one than guessing correctly, and putting your Aegis in the right place.

There will be other tactical options for spellcasting outside of the scope of this discussion as well, that will allow you to sacrifice efficiency for speed, or vice versa. Casting a spell when you've all the time in the world will always be easier than casting a spell in the heat of battle.

Lance wrote:
Feel. That's an interesting word. If it's possible, while still retaining the tactical crunch I like, I want it to feel like...

You're reaching out and grasping the raw stuff of the universe and twisting it, forming it within your grasp, bending it to your will. When the spell is cast, You feel the surge as you draw in energy, and it rips through your body and soul like a torrential flood. Raw willpower gives it shape and purpose, and it manifests elegantly into the spell you desire.

Forming the spell in your mind should be like forcing your thoughts into a pattern of colors and precise shapes. When you cast, the energy you've pours through that pattern like water through a sieve, and takes on the shape and colors of that pattern, becoming the spell you envisioned.

That's what it should feel like.

Lance: Awesome.  That's a great description, and I think it gives us plenty to go on.

Here are just some ideas that came to mind as I was reading your description:

Reaching out and grasping the raw stuff of the universe:
It would be exciting to me to have a pool of elemental power available in a scene, so at the start of a fight or scene or whatever, you roll a pool of dice representing the available magic of the area, and that varies based on what's around.  On mountaintops and when the wind is blowing hard, there are lots of air dice.  Underground there are lots of earth dice.  Maybe spirit dice are found amongst people, or maybe you have to do something special to generate those.  You could represent the different elements with different die types (perhaps using platonic solids?), or colours, and roll them all at the start of a scene.  When a die is used by a mage, it gets re-rolled, so you never run out, they just determine the scope of what's possible.  Also possibly casting spells or doing other things could increase or decrease the number of dice rolled.  Setting everything on fire should give you lots of fire dice to play with.  The pool is common though.  If you've got lots of Air dice, so do any other mages.

Maybe to grasp these dice you've got to roll under (or over) their value with your own power.  Maybe the sum you roll gives you a total number of dice you can take, but I like the idea of the value of the dice being important, so there are depths of magic available, but you have to roll well to grasp them.  I also like the idea that there's a hard limit set by your environment, so if you want to cast a giant earth spell, you have to go deep underground, and have the power to draw that much elemental energy into yourself.

Maybe you can draw on as much power as you like, but the more you draw, the more risk there is of catastrophe, or at least damage and pain?

One thing I like about this system is it gives you some tactical choices.  If you can draw a fight into the burning village, you'll be able to pound them with fire magic.  If you run and stand in the stream, you'll have access to more Water power than them.

Forming the spell in your mind
I like the idea of highly customizable spells.  You should check out Vincent's Storming the Wizard's Tower document for an interesting take on this.  I'm imagining each spell having a bunch of categories you can assign dice into, like "Damage", "Duration", "Range" and so on. 

I wonder if that's evocative enough though.  It would be interesting to me to have spells be a combination of element plus execution, like there's a list of "styles" you can cast, and depending on which elements you use in which style, you get a particular effect.  So like your "Silverwind" spell is Air power spent in the "Seeing" style.  Perhaps you can add some Spirit to that to let you affect a friend with it.  "Fireball" is Fire power spent in the "Attack" style.  You could add Air to that to give it more range.  That strikes me as a tricky thing to do though.  You'd either need to come up with definitions for each combination, or let it be freeformed at the table, which I don't think is what you're after here.

Those are just some rough ideas.  Let me know if they're in the direction you're interested in.

Maybe you can draw on as much power as you like, but the more you draw, the more risk there is of catastrophe, or at least damage and pain?

It would be exciting to me to have a pool of elemental power available in a scene, so at the start of a fight or scene or whatever, you roll a pool of dice representing the available magic of the area, and that varies based on what's around.  On mountaintops and when the wind is blowing hard, there are lots of air dice.  Underground there are lots of earth dice. [snip] One thing I like about this system is it gives you some tactical choices.  If you can draw a fight into the burning village, you'll be able to pound them with fire magic.  If you run and stand in the stream, you'll have access to more Water power than them.

I like the idea of highly customizable spells.  You should check out Vincent's Storming the Wizard's Tower document for an interesting take on this.  I'm imagining each spell having a bunch of categories you can assign dice into, like "Damage", "Duration", "Range" and so on. 

I think the idea of defining the environment in terms of its magical capacity can go a long way toward providing the desired feel, just as Simon suggests. So a magician's personal mana can be used to power a spell, but those points  are relatively few and easily exhausted. Far better to draw upon the elemental power available from where you stand. I'm sorry you're not interested in that idea right now.

If it were my system, I'd do it this way.

(a) Force. Identify a few "base effects," probably associated with elements and their combination. Void = Destroy/Nothingness, Water = Move/Thought, Earth = Create/Matter, Fire = Transform/Energy, Air = Perceive/Emotion. So a Water/Earth spell could be used to teleport, while an Earth/Water spell would result in hypnotic suggestions and charm-like effects. The amount of mana pumped into the spell determines its force. So if I have 3 Earth and 2 Water available to me, I can cast a 5 Force Earth/Water (Charm) spell. You're already doing something like this, right?

(b) Drain. As long as the spell's Drain is below my base Mana score (the amount of Mana I'm able to draw from the environment), I only have to pay one Mana to cast the spell. If the spell's Drain is higher than my Mana, I pay more: one for one on the overage, probably. Maybe have the spell's Drain be a product of its Force, so that my 5 Force spell is Drain 2.

(c) Aegis. Establish default values for casting time, range, duration, area of effect and so forth depending on the base effect. Again, you've probably already got something like that. The spellcaster can pump more mana into the spell in order to beef up these default values; conversely, the target of the spell can contribute its Aegis to weaken the spell--reduce its duration, diminish its area of effect, and so forth. I probably can't just straight up reduce its force--or maybe I can, but that's called a "counterspell" and it drains me just like my Aegis was the Force of the counterspell. If a spell doesn't target me, though, I can't use my Aegis against it.

Far better to draw upon the elemental power available from where you stand. I'm sorry you're not interested in that idea right now.

Identify a few "base effects," probably associated with elements and their combination. Void = Destroy/Nothingness, Water = Move/Thought, Earth = Create/Matter, Fire = Transform/Energy, Air = Perceive/Emotion.

As long as the spell's Drain is below my base Mana score (the amount of Mana I'm able to draw from the environment), I only have to pay one Mana to cast the spell. If the spell's Drain is higher than my Mana, I pay more: one for one on the overage, probably.

Aegis ...

As long as the spell's Drain is below my base Mana score (the amount of Mana I'm able to draw from the environment), I only have to pay one Mana to cast the spell. If the spell's Drain is higher than my Mana, I pay more: one for one on the overage, probably.

See, I thought about this. I don't like it mechanically (because nothing else in the game has a pool of points, and one of the principles I'm working from is to base everything off of similar mechanics) or thematically. Y'see, we as gamers have learned to use the term mana as "magical energy" but that's not exactly right. Mana is, like in Magic the Gathering, taken from the land. The flipside of Mana is Prana, energy from within yourself. The Mana stat isn't intended to reflect your ability to draw from your inner reserves to power your spells, it's intended to reflect your skill at drawing energy from around you to power your spells. A higher Mana means that less energy comes from your personal reserves, meaning you can cast longer and more often.

I'm using Mana because nothing else feels like a better term. Periodically, I go on Thesaurus sprees looking for better words that mean close enough to what I want them to mean, and are similarly evocative. I also did not mean to imply Prana was a concept within the game. I was simply making an illustrative comment.

Let's see if I can dig in to this better. The basic system of the game is to add an attribute to a skill to make a target number, then roll a d20, trying to get equal or less than the target number. Casting a spell will probably be Force+Spellcasting (or whatever) to determine if the spell works. Then drain takes effect. What drain is is damage. It's the same sort of thing, mechanically, that getting slugged in the face or cut with a sword does. Damage is temporary (or in extreme cases, permanent) reduction of your stats. The easiest thing to do with Mana is to simply say that Mana works like Toughness, and takes a number of points right off the top of the incoming drain damage. I don't like this because the caster gets to determine how much drain the spell does, by how they build it. As such, they can cast these drain optimized spells all day long. On the flip side, I don't want them to necessarily take drain every single time.

Hm. Discussion is causing an idea to percolate. I'm going to let it bubble, and I'll probably reply again once I'm back in my room.

If you want cumulative effects, you're pretty much required to have a pool of something.  Whether that's hit points, or a pool of tokens, or just a growing penalty written on a piece of paper, there's got to be some kind of pool.

What if mana is a die you roll to try to get over drain?  You cast the spell, then you've got to roll your mana to deal with the drain.  You can roll as many times as you like, but every failed roll accumulates something bad (penalties to other abilities?).  You can also choose to just not deal with the drain, and pass out, or explode, or whatever.  So there'd be a kind of struggle at the end of each spell to control the aftereffects.

As a data point, "mana" in Te Reo Maori means something like "respect", "personal power", and also "responsibility" and "dignity".  It's pronounced more like "munnuh".

Hi Lance.

The first thing I see is that your stats are a bit low in comparison to a d20. If I have to split my 5 Aegis into different elements, having a 2 in Fire and a 3 in Water doesn't really help me all that much. I'd probably put it all in Void to defend against mind control, right?

Plus, why should it look exactly like the other systems in the game? This is magic, it's supposed to be fuckin' kewl, right? If using a fireball spell is mechanically similar to using a crossbow, why not just use a crossbow?

I like the idea of strategically building a spell. You'll need to stat out the costs of effects, range, duration, etc. in order to do this, of course. And why not make Force and Drain the same thing? However much power you put into a spell, that's how much power you have to resist. It might be faster, though I suppose calculating [Force+range+duration+etc=Drain] isn't that hard, either.

It looks like you want one roll for spellcasting (how well you form that picture/sieve in your mind), and one roll for how much it costs you (Drain). For that first one, what is the roll to determine? Having your spell fizzle out is pretty boring. Are you rolling Force vs Aegis to see if it works? Are you rolling your skill to see if you control the spell, or if it goes bonkers? Or do you want just one roll, where you see how much the spell costs you, and maybe you can lower it's effectiveness in order to take less damage?

One way to keep things strategical is to compare points. Compare Force vs Aegis (or effect vs. Aegis, if some Force points go into range etc. but don't increase the effectiveness of the spell). If Aegis is higher, the target just shrugs off the spell. If Force is higher, caster rolls for control. Since you have to allocate your Aegis points to the different elements, there is some important strategic planning here. Whereas, where I put my +2 on a d20 roll vs magic is slightly less important.

And then compare the Drain with Mana. Maybe there's no Drain if Force is less than your Mana. Do you have to allocate your Mana points to elements, just like your Aegis points? There's some strategizing there, too -- not just what spells will I face, but which spells will I cast? (Do you want to allocate just Aegis, or allocate all three Void stats?) If you want your spell to be effective, you make it's Force higher than the target's Aegis. Then either the spell is effective and you roll for Drain, or you roll to see if it's effective only when your Force is higher. Maybe you have to roll to put extra Force into your spell above and beyond your Force allocation?

As for Mana, you probably want to know which spells you can cast all day and which ones you risk it all on. In a compare system, if the Drain is less than your Mana, you're okay, if it's above, you roll for drain. Alternately, if it's under your Mana, roll to resist only 1 point of Drain, but if it's above your Mana, roll to resist more -- either the difference in numbers, or the full amount. You might even still lose 1 point if you succeed on the roll.

And you could think about extra Force points (free from Drain), or extra Mana points if the element is all around you.

Alright, an idea has come... I'll address a couple things in Simon post before posting the idea.

If you want cumulative effects, you're pretty much required to have a pool of something.  Whether that's hit points, or a pool of tokens, or just a growing penalty written on a piece of paper, there's got to be some kind of pool.

As a data point, "mana" in Te Reo Maori means something like "respect", "personal power", and also "responsibility" and "dignity".  It's pronounced more like "munnuh".

Hi Lance,

I live in New Zealand, and I'm studying Maori language and culture, so I'm pretty familiar with the concept in that context, but less familiar with it in others.  Mana in contemporary New Zealand discourse is usually used as a shorthand for respect and dignity posessed by people and organisations.  It doesn't have an explicitly supernatural aspect in that sense.  Traditional Maori belief (as it is understood today, actually many tribes had differing beliefs) though represents mana as a manifestation of the spiritual property of mauri, which is kind of like "wholeness". 

This is kind of tangential to your point though (It just doesn't come up in conversation much, so I'm eager to show off my study).

I think it's a good idea to keep your rules consistent.  My one issue with the idea you've presented is that it doesn't present any choices to the player.  Luke made a good point about choices in another thread.  Too few choices, and the game is boring.  Too many choices, and the game bogs down (and is boring).  To my taste, I don't want to be making more than one or two dice rolls without making a choice.  So, for example, "roll to hit, then roll for damage" is ok (usually), but "roll to hit, then they roll dodge, then you roll damage, then they roll soak" is not.

Pretty, pretty crossposting.

The first thing I see is that your stats are a bit low in comparison to a d20. If I have to split my 5 Aegis into different elements, having a 2 in Fire and a 3 in Water doesn't really help me all that much. I'd probably put it all in Void to defend against mind control, right?

Plus, why should it look exactly like the other systems in the game? This is magic, it's supposed to be fuckin' kewl, right? If using a fireball spell is mechanically similar to using a crossbow, why not just use a crossbow?

I like the idea of strategically building a spell. You'll need to stat out the costs of effects, range, duration, etc. in order to do this, of course.

One way to keep things strategical is to compare points. Compare Force vs Aegis (or effect vs. Aegis, if some Force points go into range etc. but don't increase the effectiveness of the spell). If Aegis is higher, the target just shrugs off the spell. If Force is higher, caster rolls for control. Since you have to allocate your Aegis points to the different elements, there is some important strategic planning here. Whereas, where I put my +2 on a d20 roll vs magic is slightly less important.

My one issue with the idea you've presented is that it doesn't present any choices to the player.  Luke made a good point about choices in another thread.  Too few choices, and the game is boring.  Too many choices, and the game bogs down (and is boring).  To my taste, I don't want to be making more than one or two dice rolls without making a choice.  So, for example, "roll to hit, then roll for damage" is ok (usually), but "roll to hit, then they roll dodge, then you roll damage, then they roll soak" is not.

I suspect you'll end up with Aegis as some kind of subtractive in any system, unless you use it as a D&D magic resistance (roll Aegis to shrug off a spell).

Here's my understanding of what you're currently thinking of:

This (#1):
a) Roll under [Spellcasting skill plus Force minus target's Aegis], then
b) Roll under [Mana plus Skill plus Spellcasting bonus] and use the margin to reduce Drain.

Or maybe this (#2):
a) roll under [Skill+Force] vs. opponent rolls under [Aegis and maybe something?], then
b) roll under [Mana+Skill+your spellcasting bonus] and use the margin to reduce Drain.

Is that fairly close?

#1 is fewer rolls, and yeah, if you have a high Aegis and some forewarning, putting 8 points of Aegis in Fire against the Fire mage actually will make a big difference to his d20 rolls. But do you want the target's Aegis to affect the Mana roll to reduce Drain (in terms of spellcasting MoS bonus)? Or does it just affect the MoS?

Or do you want Aegis to reduce the effects of the spell directly? In which case Spellcasting MoS could be used to bring the spell back up (negating Aegis) or used as a bonus to the Mana roll.

What I'm currently thinking of:

Caster: rolls -vs- (Spellcasting + Force) to determine successful casting

Target: subtracts appropriate Aegis from Force of spell to determine effectiveness of spell

Caster: rolls -vs- (Mana + Skill + margin* from spellcasting roll) then uses the margin to purchase Drain reduction effects

The problem with applying Aegis to the caster's roll is largely conceptual. Aegis is a protective aura, not a proactive force. It hovers around you protecting you from magical energies from outside, rather than seeking out those that mean you harm and interfering with them. It's also An effect-based problem. If the caster lays out an area effect spell, your Aegis should protect you, but it shouldn't protect others in the area of effect.

Or do you want Aegis to reduce the effects of the spell directly? In which case Spellcasting MoS could be used to bring the spell back up (negating Aegis) or used as a bonus to the Mana roll.

Is the spellcasting roll a pass/fail, or is there failed casting mishaps and stuff?
(aside from a penalty to the "soak" roll)

Does my Aegis just reduce the spell's Force, or can I reduce other aspects of the spell instead? Reducing Area of Effect might be too much like defending others with your Aegis, but what if I get hit with a mind-control spell and I want to reduce the duration instead of how powerful it is?

Or does reducing the Force affect all other aspects of the spell?

Is the spellcasting roll a pass/fail, or is there failed casting mishaps and stuff?
(aside from a penalty to the "soak" roll)

Does my Aegis just reduce the spell's Force, or can I reduce other aspects of the spell instead? Reducing Area of Effect might be too much like defending others with your Aegis, but what if I get hit with a mind-control spell and I want to reduce the duration instead of how powerful it is?

Or does reducing the Force affect all other aspects of the spell?