Topic: [Tales of the Dragon Lords]The Setting
Started by: Patrice
Started on: 8/5/2009
Board: First Thoughts
On 8/5/2009 at 11:17am, Patrice wrote:
[Tales of the Dragon Lords]The Setting
I wasn't planning to post anymore in First Thoughts about Tales of the Dragon Lords but Evan's thread gave me a good motivation to do so when he stated in that:
Evan wrote:
I was looking at the terrific artwork in my monochrome B1 In Search of the Unknown (Carr, 1979), but felt disappointed that playing D&D doesn't actually feel anything like the storytelling the art portrays.
I felt a bit that, this time, I would better start a new thread aside instead of jumping in Evan's one at mid-point, since the ideas it brought took me a bit too far away from what he's expecting there. I never felt like I've played any of the published adventures I've bought. I've bought the Slave Pits of the Undercity, the Keep on the Borderlands, In Search of the Unknown and about over a few hundreds adventures over the years that went by after. I felt the same every time: "where the hell are the incredible amazing marvels I was imagining inside?". None to be found. Each and every was a disappointment to my imagination, that went feverish for weeks before I've actually bought these. All I had was a title, a cover image and a blurb and yet, that all felt so much more than the keyed maps I got when I cracked those open.
As far as I'm concerned, D&D or not D&D isn't the issue here. What is the issue is "what does it take to provide an adventure?". I've come to the conclusion that it takes a title, a cover image and a blurb. And of course, a whole bag of imagination. I have a side story here: when I was say, 10 or 11, I was playing the Blue Box D&D with a softcover PHB. This all was in English, a language I barely started to study at school at this time. I've ran the Slave Pits of the Undercity for my friends, and was unable to understand a word. All I could read were the stat blocks, the map and the pictures. I just took the pictures off and let my friends follow the map and when I felt like, I described some cool scene using the picture I felt the fittest. If combat started, I took the first stat block that caught my gaze and rocked on and on until at some point I decided that the adventure was over. I was fortunate that they were 10 or 11 too... This was what a published adventure meant to me at this time: the cover with its title, blurb (that my father translated for me), and image, a collection of pictures, a map, a few names and a few random stat blocks. By the time I understood English a bit more, I've come to realize that most adventures were actually boring compared to what we've been playing.
When I had set myself to think about the Tales of the Dragon Lords' Setting, I felt a bit worried about me providing just a dungeon frame and went into city or region building but at some point, I read that in the Color-first Character, part two thread:
I suggest that the real setting of a T&T game is the dungeon itself - that is, unless/until you choose to world-build later.
And had set myself the aim to build the Setting the other way round, starting from its tiny dungeon basis and letting it build later, adventure layer after adventure layer.
So after this long background explanation here's what I have for the Tales of the Dragon Lords' Setting:
Before the play begins. Before you have even characters, you roll for an adventure title which goes like that:
The [Adjective - 1D100 roll][Place - 1D100 roll] of [Name - choose or 1D400 roll]
You then select an image in a picture sourcebook provided (or roll for one) and roll for a generic Name [4 tables, 1D100 roll]. You get this: The Forgotten Palace of Kosma, a picture of a mummy lord under a dark sky and this blurb "Some secrets are better left undisturbed. All seasoned adventurers know this. Yet, when the fate of a dying kingdom is at stake, all caution must give. Or must it?". If you're using a computer, I'm planning to have it done in just one click and to result in a PDF cover with the appropriate layout. Yes, an endless old-school adventure cover generator, that is.
This is the Setting, go play it.
Now here's the issue I've got caught in a bit: should I try to get the blurbs and the illos totally generic in such way that they could match any title or should I try to design them as much colored as possible even if that may result in absurd results? You could get, for instance The Dancing Brothels of Stygia and an abandoned mine picture plus the blurb "The warlock has gathered his wolves. The assault is about to begin as fearless scouts clamber into night beyond enemy lines. Take your sides!". What could provide the best result for imagination? Would you, as a player, appreciate having to join the dots and exert your imagination trying to find ideas to make this all match or would you consider the mismatches as internal errors and re-roll?
I would also appreciate feedback upon this "Setting" generation system, of course.
Forge Reference Links:
Topic 28243
Topic 27422
On 8/5/2009 at 9:06pm, Paul Czege wrote:
Re: [Tales of the Dragon Lords]The Setting
Hey Patrice,
I think you should avoid going generic on the artwork. I think it would totally disappoint the energy you have for the game from your originary inspirations. The artwork needs to be as evocative and otherworldly as your recollections of illustrations from the modules that so captured your imagination as a child. I'm not sure I'd welcome having to make sense of The Blood Yard of the Worm King, with an illustration of two up-armored gnomes trying to launch a hot air balloon, and a caption of "When Henrietta discovered Richard had been consorting with river nymphs, she found an unlikely champion to defend her honor." But maybe there's a way around that without having to do generic artwork.
Paul
On 8/5/2009 at 10:56pm, whiteknife wrote:
RE: Re: [Tales of the Dragon Lords]The Setting
I think the method is cool- finding what you thought was fun as a kid and putting it down to be duplicated is a great way to go about design, in my opinion.
I agree with Paul when he says to avoid generic art work. Think of it this way: Those who want the fun and creativity stretching chance to interpret a seemingly non-sensible cover blurb can go for it, and those who want something that "fits better" can choose their own combination, or just re-roll until it makes sense. Hell, you could even include "default" cover/blurb combination if you think people would really like to have matching stuff.
On 8/5/2009 at 11:52pm, M. Burrell wrote:
RE: Re: [Tales of the Dragon Lords]The Setting
My gaming mantra is thus: 'Let the players do the work.' It serves well and, happily, also applies to design.
Are random tables really the tool for pushing imaginative buttons and getting the players to engage with a setting? Perhaps just a table for the adventure title then let the players brainstorm ideas, images and adventure hooks off that one phrase. Keep the creativity with the table-sitters, calling out ideas round-robin style. It's easier to engage with your own ideas and those of your friends rather than try grapple with an unfortunate random roll.
As I see it: Less work for you. More fun for them.
On 8/6/2009 at 3:06am, noahtrammell wrote:
RE: Re: [Tales of the Dragon Lords]The Setting
I'd have to think about this a lot more before giving serious advice, but this is what popped into my head. I think the key to this is a delicate, delicate balance. If you go the way of making all the text and artwork fit together, your going to end up with variations on the exact same thing that will eventually lose its ability to stimulate the players' imaginations. You don't want to just generate "Keep on the Shadowfell," "Fortress Upon the Shining Sea," and "Tower Beneath the Illusory Stone." Damn, those actually sound really good, but you get my drift.
On the other hand, if you decide to ditch making sense you mentioned players rerolling to get a more unified theme. The problem is that with as much breadth as your example made me think of, rerolling is going to get a result that's just as random.
I'm not sure how I'd do it, and this post probably hasn't been terribly helpful, but it's still a great idea. Good luck with balance.
On 8/6/2009 at 5:35am, Noclue wrote:
RE: Re: [Tales of the Dragon Lords]The Setting
I like how this is handled in Burning THACO http://www.burningwheel.org/wiki/index.php?title=Downloads#Burning_THAC0. Show the players the title and cover art. Read the blurb aloud. Every player creates a character with at least one belief that puts them on the quest described in the blurb.
On 8/6/2009 at 2:11pm, Paul Czege wrote:
RE: Re: [Tales of the Dragon Lords]The Setting
Noclue wrote:
I like how this is handled in Burning THACO http://www.burningwheel.org/wiki/index.php?title=Downloads#Burning_THAC0. Show the players the title and cover art. Read the blurb aloud. Every player creates a character with at least one belief that puts them on the quest described in the blurb.
Yeah! Patrice, go back to your inspirations. Give the players exactly the inputs you had. Cover art, a "translated" title, and some largely unreadable text interspersed with "recognized words". You could create this experience by using an alien language font, interspersed with some occasional English words and phrases.
Paul
On 8/7/2009 at 5:19pm, C. Edwards wrote:
RE: Re: [Tales of the Dragon Lords]The Setting
To build on what Paul and Noclue posted, why don't you make a big book of covers with blurbs and what not? Then add rules in there somewhere for jumping into a cover and playing your ass off. Most times I find more value in raw imaginative stimulation than I do a set of rules. A book of well done "cover" images with stimulating blurb-age and some simple rules for bringing it all to life would be worth its weight in smoked gouda (or insert your cheese of choice).
On 8/7/2009 at 9:25pm, Patrice wrote:
RE: Re: [Tales of the Dragon Lords]The Setting
Thanks for all your contributions!
Paul, you're pushing the chaos even further than I do, I love that - I merrily laughed when I read the "alien font" part. This is pop art. Oh and by the way, I'd love to have to find a way to play those armored gnomes adventuring in the Blood Yard to halt Richard the Fallen as he's about to meet a glorious death and restore his honor there.
Thanks too, Noclue for hinting me to Burning THACO. I didn't know about this and that's a hefty bit of R&D you spare me here. My setting/dungeon idea is exactly the same as Burning THACO: a title, a cover and a blurb used as if the whole were a bang! (it actually is given proper attention to bang-weaving during the Character generation and the resolution part of the System). It's intertwined banging and Color 1st (may I say that?), that's what I call a playable Setting. Thing is, without a blurb I don't have much to bang with.
I'm of course OK with providing the players what I had in mind: a picture, a title and a blurb but my issue is (was?) about whether to ensure this all match or not. Everybody say hello to the armored gnomes in the dancing brothels again. As far as I'm concerned, C. Edwards pretty much hits the nail with the big book idea. That's what a Tales of the Dragon Lords sourcebook might look like: pictures, bits of poetry texts, blurbs, lists of names and a few random tables. So much for my endless generator idea but fun and playable enough. What rebukes me a bit is that I lose all that cool randomness here. If I provide say, 20 covers (anyone wondered about how expansive this may get to produce, even if not printed?!), you'll get about 20 adventures to play and then wait for an extension or something. Randomness allowed me to provide limitless, if absurd, adventures. I'm thinking about the delicate balance Noah was talking about, looking for a mid-term, something like "roll for a title, then compete to choose a cover image and a blurb together in the Sourcebook". Does that make sense to you all? Thing is, what I lose here is the "cover" effect I was talking about in my introductory explanation. I could also open every option: provide a random system, a few cover images in the Sourcebook and let the players decide.
Did anyone say "game design is about making hard choices" here? So true. I need to think about it. If you have any extra comment, I'll be happy of course to read it but I'm nearing "done" with this thread.
On 8/8/2009 at 2:27am, Patrice wrote:
RE: Re: [Tales of the Dragon Lords]The Setting
Paul wrote:Noclue wrote:
I like how this is handled in Burning THACO http://www.burningwheel.org/wiki/index.php?title=Downloads#Burning_THAC0. Show the players the title and cover art. Read the blurb aloud. Every player creates a character with at least one belief that puts them on the quest described in the blurb.
Yeah! Patrice, go back to your inspirations. Give the players exactly the inputs you had. Cover art, a "translated" title, and some largely unreadable text interspersed with "recognized words". You could create this experience by using an alien language font, interspersed with some occasional English words and phrases.
Paul
Yeah too! So stupid to have missed it in first place, this is the way.
Thanks Paul.
Yes, including the pop art thing and the unreadrable text.
On 8/12/2009 at 3:16pm, JoyWriter wrote:
RE: Re: [Tales of the Dragon Lords]The Setting
Paul wrote:
I'm not sure I'd welcome having to make sense of The Blood Yard of the Worm King, with an illustration of two up-armored gnomes trying to launch a hot air balloon, and a caption of "When Henrietta discovered Richard had been consorting with river nymphs, she found an unlikely champion to defend her honor."
I'd also love to do that! The worm king is obviously who the gnome Henrietta gets to defend her, with disastrous consequences leading to an escape by the skin on their teeth. :) I'd either play it from their perspective, or have some adventurers come in to clear up the mess.
M. wrote:
It's easier to engage with your own ideas and those of your friends rather than try grapple with an unfortunate random roll.
I disagree, as you can probably see from the above, I love random inspiration, and my main problem with my freinds input is that I morph it into something very different from what they intended, and they go, "but I didn't mean that". Not a big thing, just easier to rip into some random table!
Patrice, another solution is to recreate "everway"; with A5 "cards" containing covers, a big art budget, and a load of blurb cards too. If you don't want to do cards, then just have people roll on the contents page, which would be structured by subject, and as you add more books, roll between books by numbering them!