I've done a search on Territorial Authority and still haven't quite come to a concrete picture in my head.
Was hoping someone could help me...

In terms of "law enforcement" and justice, what is the difference betweent he TA, the Steward and the Dogs?

In a town that has a TA and a Steward, if someone's ... I dunno.. stealing chickens... who investigates, arrests, tries, and punishes the guilty?

I get that the TA is more of a "tax collector" but it does say that he's there to ensure taxes CAN be collected.  In other words - a town plagued by crime doesn't produce taxes.  So does the TA carry a gun?  Does he investigate crime?  Does he have the ability to arrest/jail someone?
Even if not.. what happens when someone doesn't pay their taxes when he comes calling?
Does he go tell the Steward to get the money?
Or does he enforce his will with a gun?
Or does he go back to his Superiors and "report" the crime so they can send law enforcement?

Or is "criminal justice" the Steward's job only?
Or is the Steward only concerned with Faith issues and "law & order" (the way we see it) aren't important?

And if criminal justice is the Steward's job, then the Dogs are really more like a U.S. (territorial) Marshall, while the Steward is like the town sheriff?  They do the same job - just the Dogs have more authority when they're present?  Doesn't seem right cuz I thought Marshalls tended to stick to issues that are bigger than an individual town - like breaking up a County-wide cattle-rustling gang.  Or tracking a criminal who has left town and is on the run.

The way I play it:

The TA is the federal government's representation out in the Territories. The rep is one part sheriff, one part taxman.

He enforces TA laws.

The steward isn't (generally) recognized as a legitimate authority figure by the TA. Sometimes the steward is also a town mayor, but as a rule he's a spiritual and social leader rather than an elected figure. Where TA law and the tenets of the Faithful coincide, he enforces the law. Where they differ, he follows the Faith. This can cause problems with the TA. As a rule though, the TA isn't right there in the town unless it's a bigger one. Often, the TA rep may be one of the Faithful, so he may turn a blind eye to what the law forbids but the Faith allows.

Such as the Dogs' King-given authority to shoot, hang or whatever they please.

Other times, the TA and the Dogs may not see eye to eye. The Dogs don't recognize the laws made by the corrupt, decadent government back east. The TA doesn't recognize the divine authority of the Order Set Apart.

Very well written, thanks!
Is this the generally-accepted view of their roles?

Lance wrote:
The way I play it:

The TA is the federal government's representation out in the Territories. The rep is one part sheriff, one part taxman.

He enforces TA laws.

The steward isn't (generally) recognized as a legitimate authority figure by the TA. Sometimes the steward is also a town mayor, but as a rule he's a spiritual and social leader rather than an elected figure. Where TA law and the tenets of the Faithful coincide, he enforces the law. Where they differ, he follows the Faith. This can cause problems with the TA. As a rule though, the TA isn't right there in the town unless it's a bigger one. Often, the TA rep may be one of the Faithful, so he may turn a blind eye to what the law forbids but the Faith allows.

Such as the Dogs' King-given authority to shoot, hang or whatever they please.

Other times, the TA and the Dogs may not see eye to eye. The Dogs don't recognize the laws made by the corrupt, decadent government back east. The TA doesn't recognize the divine authority of the Order Set Apart.

You know what might be very helpful - a concrete list of examples where the laws of the faith may differ or agree with the laws of the TA.  And a differentiation between a "Steward" issue and a "Dogs" issue.

Stealing chickens, for example.
Has to be against the "law" - right?  TA law.
But theft has to be a "sin" in the Book of Life, as well.
So I'd assume the Steward or the TA or both would handle it.
No?

So what are some examples "sins" that the Steward would handle but the TA wouldn't care about?
Lust, greed, pride, etc.  right.

Seems simple except when you bring "justice" into it.
What happens when the Steward can exact justic on his flock in forms that would otherwise be considered crimes by the TA?
You know - if the Steward shoots (or beats or interrogates or brands) someone for crimes of the Faith, does the TA call that murder?

Yes! Great topic.

Lance is right on.

The office of Steward is solely religious; a Steward has no legal authority at all. Same with the Dogs! If a Steward or the Dogs shoot and hang people, this makes them murderers in the eyes of the Territorial Authority.

The TA guy has a tough job of it, though. Think about the beat cop in a (cinematic) Mafia neighborhood. If someone's stealing your chickens, do you go to the cop? The hell you do. You go to the Family. If there's a murder in the neighborhood, does anybody talk to the police? NO.

The Faith fled out here into the West to get away from the federal government, and the Territorial Authority is the federal government's representation out here. It's not easy relations. Sometimes the TA will employ Faithful, to ease relations; sometimes Faithful will step up to be TA reps, and turn a blind eye (like a Mob guy joining the force).

One Dog of mine got herself chased halfway across the Mountain Territory by the Territorial Authority's rangers, for being (in their eyes) a murderer and rebel. She'd gun down a TA rep for meeting her eyes.

-Vincent

(I'll add that this ended her career as a Dog, and took her out of play. Not because she wasn't justified - she was, it was the King Himself told her to gun down any TA bastard she met - but because she couldn't very well do her service as a Dog while on the run.)

-Vincent

One of the best towns I ever ran involved a solider of the Territorial Authority investigating rumors about a vigilante organization (i.e. The Dogs) operating amongst The Faithful.  The climax involved The Dogs literally performing a miracle to show the soldier that there were things in this world, here amongst the faithful, that were best left within the faithful.  It was beautiful.

Jesse

lumpley wrote:
The office of Steward is solely religious; a Steward has no legal authority at all. Same with the Dogs! ....Sometimes the TA will employ Faithful, to ease relations; sometimes Faithful will step up to be TA reps, and turn a blind eye (like a Mob guy joining the force).

Ok, found the rulebook.
Thinking out loud til someone interrupts...(pleeeease. lol)

"Notice that the branch Steward has Stewardship over the families in his congregation, while the Dogs assigned to that route have Stewardship over his congregation as a whole, including him in his official capacity. Dogs have no authority to solve the problems of families or individuals, that’s the Steward’s job, except as the problems spill over into the congregation as a whole. (Which they pretty much do, so that’s okay.)"

Seems like intentionally blurred lines.  :)
The Steward is over the families in his congregation.
The Dogs are over the Steward's congregation.
Isn't that one and the same?

The (fuzzy) takeaway I'm getting from this (and it's prolly wrong) is that the Steward does everything in a town that he can.
From taking care of families issues to dealing with issues that have grown larger and are plaguing the whole town.
If and/or when a Dog shows up, they lend that Steward a helping hand unless a) he seems competent and/or b) the problem seems to be isolated to a family or two and doesn't threaten the branch.

When the Dogs ride through, if there are no problems (or at least none worth their attention), they just bring mail, smile, preside over a wedding, and ride on.

Am I anywhere near close?

cra2 wrote:
Seems like intentionally blurred lines.  :)
The Steward is over the families in his congregation.
The Dogs are over the Steward's congregation.
Isn't that one and the same?

cra2 wrote: (pulls hair out wondering why either a) this wasn't in the book, or b) how I missed it, if it was.)

Another way of looking at it is that the towns where the Steward can handle the problem on his own are towns that don't need the Dogs as much -- those are the implied but unplayed towns where the Dogs don't do anything but bring the mail and have a chicken dinner and bless some babies.  The towns where the Steward can't or won't handle the problems, or where he's the problem -- those are the towns that the Dogs dig into. 

Also, it's very human and understandable that sometimes a Steward might want to let the Dogs handle somethings,, like a no-good brother in law who needs shooting.  There was an Actual Play I read recently (Star Wars DitV) where an NPC said,something like "You'll leave soon, but I live here." 

cra2 wrote:
In other words, if they storm into town and start telling everyone their business and dishing out justice, the Steward's going to feel like they stepped all over his toes.

Noclue wrote:

cra2 wrote:
In other words, if they storm into town and start telling everyone their business and dishing out justice, the Steward's going to feel like they stepped all over his toes.

And this is a bad thing how?

Stewards are preachers, yes. Pastors. They're responsible for the well-being of the individuals and families in their congregations, as individuals and families. They're responsible for the sinner's well-being just as much as for his victims'. That means calling the sinner to repentance, not murdering him for the good of all. If the sinner won't repent, the Steward's job is to nevertheless keep working with him. (See pages 44-45 for an example.)

One of my favorite lines for a Steward to say, when the Dogs give him grief about the state of his congregation, is this: "Dog, if God allowed me to gun my own parishioners down in the street, He wouldn't need you."

-Vincent

cra2 wrote:
I figured that sort of problem only came up if the Steward was incompetent or corrupt.
(which I assumed would be a rarity, not the norm - else, the Faith would need to re-think how it selects Stewards)

cra2 wrote: Having armed men in conflict with each over vague roles just leads to pride and anger and resentment.

lumpley wrote:
Stewards are preachers, yes. Pastors. They're responsible for the well-being of the individuals and families in their congregations, as individuals and families. They're responsible for the sinner's well-being just as much as for his victims'. That means calling the sinner to repentance, not murdering him for the good of all. If the sinner won't repent, the Steward's job is to nevertheless keep working with him. (See pages 44-45 for an example.)

One of my favorite lines for a Steward to say, when the Dogs give him grief about the state of his congregation, is this: "Dog, if God allowed me to gun my own parishioners down in the street, He wouldn't need you."

-Vincent

Right on.

-Vincent

This discussion reminds me of a short story I read in High School.

It was the story of a murderer and criminal going to Heaven to be judged. Rather than finding God sitting on high and handing out judgment, he found a panel of three former mortals, who had been judges in life. They called a single witness: God.

In the story, God kept digressing, talking about the good things this man had done in his life, and had to be brought back in line by one of the judges, who only wanted to know his guilt or innocence.

The Steward is like God in that story, I think. He knows that the vile sorcerer has done nasty things, but he also likely baptized that same person as a youth, seen the light of Faith shining in their eyes. He's seen the circumstances that lead to the fall. He knows everything bad they've done, but he also can see how human these mistakes were. The Steward probably loves the sorcerer in the same way he'd love his own children, and desperately hopes that they can be brought back into the light.

He's the witness. He cannot be an impartial judge, jury and executioner.

Lance, I think you have changed the way I will write and run Stewards from now on.