Topic: [Rats in the Walls] Prep, questions, suggestions
Started by: Ron Edwards
Started on: 8/25/2009
Board: Playtesting
On 8/25/2009 at 7:04pm, Ron Edwards wrote:
[Rats in the Walls] Prep, questions, suggestions
Hiya,
Some history: almost four years ago, Lance won a Low Ronny award for the first draft of this game. See [Ronnies] Summary thread for more about the contests; see [Rats in the Walls] Ronnies feedback if you're interested in the first dialogue about the original version. A search on "rats" specifying Lance's username will get you various playtesting threads too.
You can find the current draft at the Rats in the Wall page at Wolves Den Productions.
REORGANIZATION SUGGESTIONS
Put "Play of the Game" before "Rules." Include in it "Setting" and "Scenes" in that order. Keep the "Techniques" section as an addendum to the rules.
After the Change dice chart, put Reshaping the Present, then follow with the bulleted limitations. Then after that comes Interference, and finally the three paragraphs concerning losing Love and how to deal with it.
Put "The First Time" for Changing the Past up front in that section.
CHARACTER CREATION SUGGESTIONS
Explicitly state 1-3 Hatreds per Rat character. This is what threw me terribly originally; I couldn't figure out that there is only one Hatreds sheet with everyone's Hatreds on that single sheet. So I was thinking 5 to 10 Hatreds *per character* and couldn't figure out what happened in your sheet example.
EXPLANATION OF PLAY
The play-procedure following character creation seems to be:
1. Play scenes in the present
2. Within one or two scenes per Rat character, account for each Rat's "free change the past" action
3. Keep playing scenes, now with both contests and change-the-past actions involved
I suggest specifying that by "frame a scene," you mean go to that character's daily life, right now, right here. (I harp on this because it took me forever to understand that you never play "in the past.")
I suggest removing the word "Stakes" from the Contests explanation, and replacing it with the Rat's direct and determined intention statement.
RULES QUESTIONS FOR CONTESTS
When you say the dice pool is limited, you mean for this particular contest, right?
Do the GM's Challenge dice follow the same rules for loss and gain as the players' dice?
As far as I can tell, you go around until all Succeed dice are accounted for, and then if anyone wants, re-bidding and re-rolling goes on from what remains of the pools. Is this right? (The phrase "If more than one person runs out on the last round" keeps confusing me.)
If someone re-bids, and the GM has used all his Succeed dice, does the GM have to re-bid too? What if he's out of Challenge dice?
RULES QUESTIONS FOR CHANGING THE PAST
Is spending Wrath the same, mechanically, as Bidding in contests? Or does this mean that the points of Wrath are gone forever once spent?
The GM has to roll dice equal to or more than the player's Hate ... do these come out of the Challenge Pool? What if he doesn't have enough?
What's this about changing a descriptor with a Change point? I understand changing Professions, but Love? Wait ... by "change," does that mean whom you love changes? (That makes sense, but it's not like the actual Love score can itself be turned to Like or another Hate or Mildly Enjoys, right?)
Can Change points be spent to alter Hate and/or Wrath scores? (My thinking is not ...; they apply only to Love, Ability, and Profession, right?)
THOUGHTS
It might be nice to have players who are out of play still be able to do something. The one thing I think should be reserved for the GM alone should be narrating his Succeed dice in changing the past. But maybe the out-of-play players could contribute to scene framing or stuff like that.
Best, Ron
Forge Reference Links:
Topic 19156
Topic 17008
On 8/25/2009 at 8:21pm, Lance D. Allen wrote:
Re: [Rats in the Walls] Prep, questions, suggestions
High Ronny, thank you!
Also, it was 5-10 Hatreds per character, but as time has gone on, and I've re-read the original playtest posts, and considered other playtests, I've come to realize that it is indeed too much. 2 is a bare, bare minimum. 5 should be considered a hard maximum. The number should also be consistent.. All players should have the same number of Hatreds. (Note: It can and does play with larger numbers, but it can get very confusing at that level, so I think it's best to stick to 3-5)
If it is at all feasible, the first "free" Change should take place in the first scene. It also should not change anything significant, color aspects ONLY. Don't even change descriptors with the first Change.
Stakes is a bad word. As is 'bid'. They'll both be going in future rewrites. Instead of bid, read it as "selects how many points to spend"
Questions.
RULES QUESTIONS FOR CONTESTS
1. When you say the dice pool is limited, you mean for this particular contest, right?
2. Do the GM's Challenge dice follow the same rules for loss and gain as the players' dice?
3. As far as I can tell, you go around until all Succeed dice are accounted for, and then if anyone wants, re-bidding and re-rolling goes on from what remains of the pools. Is this right? (The phrase "If more than one person runs out on the last round" keeps confusing me.)
4. If someone re-bids, and the GM has used all his Succeed dice, does the GM have to re-bid too? What if he's out of Challenge dice?
(numbering mine)
1. If you are referring to the line on page 9 "He should feel free to bid as many points as he feels adequately represents the challenge, but should keep in mind that he has a limited pool as well." then I am reminding the GM that he does not have an infinite number of dice. A little bit more guidance is in order here, as well. If the GM rolls half or less of the value of the player's Ability score, the contest should be considered moderate. If he rolls up to as many as the player's Ability score, the contest is difficult. If he rolls more, then it should be considered incredibly difficult.
2. Yes, the GM's dice follow the same rules. This is an issue I'd like tracked as closely as possible, as I'm still unsure as to the economy involved in GM dice.
3. This is a really clunky passage, now that I'm re-reading. I almost think I was deliberately attempting to be obtuse. All this means is that if the there is a tie for the highest number of successes, those who tied may choose to roll more dice from their applicable pools.
4. The previous rule applies to the GM as well as any players. Whoever ties for highest number of successes may roll more dice.
RULES QUESTIONS FOR CHANGING THE PAST
1. Is spending Wrath the same, mechanically, as Bidding in contests? Or does this mean that the points of Wrath are gone forever once spent?
2. The GM has to roll dice equal to or more than the player's Hate ... do these come out of the Challenge Pool? What if he doesn't have enough?
3. What's this about changing a descriptor with a Change point? I understand changing Professions, but Love? Wait ... by "change," does that mean whom you love changes? (That makes sense, but it's not like the actual Love score can itself be turned to Like or another Hate or Mildly Enjoys, right?)
4. Can Change points be spent to alter Hate and/or Wrath scores? (My thinking is not ...; they apply only to Love, Ability, and Profession, right?)
(numbering mine)
1. Spending Wrath is an activation cost to initiate a change. Once the points are spent, they're gone. You may continue to gain them as normal, of course.
2. That's a question I haven't answered. Obviously I should. I will hipshoot you an answer. Whenever the player loses dice, those dice go to the GM's Challenge Pool. If he ever depletes the pool, he will roll 3 dice for free, but the player will roll an additional 3 dice. It's a shitty solution to be honest. If I can do better with a bit more thought, I'll try to answer again in the next day.
3. When talking about changing descriptors and Love, we are indeed talking about changing who (or what) your character Loves. So you've got it right in your parentheses.
4. Correct. Wrath is accumulated during scenes, and Hate is only a product of your Hatreds, which you can lose, but never gain. (Exception when you lose your last Hatred you have one chance to regain a new one, pg 16)
My default assumption for players whose character is finished is that they would make new ones. That is obviously less appealing if someone goes out early, but you're looking for the game to come to a mechanical end. For this, I think I'll probably add something about out-of-play characters advocating for secondary characters, possibly with effects based on how the player's character left play (Lost Hate -vs- Lost Love)
On 8/27/2009 at 12:57pm, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: Re: [Rats in the Walls] Prep, questions, suggestions
Thanks! This helps a lot.
For what it's worth, I'm not keen on the idea of making up a new character when my old one is gone. I think it would diminish the intensity of the big-P Premise. My inclination would be to keep the character-less player involved for table-talk, for engagement with scene-framing as a GM buddy ... rather than oh no how can we include this person fully, more about not actually evicting them from the table.
But maybe it's not an issue and I'm borrowing trouble, addressing a problem which doesn't exist. I'll hold off on further thought about it until I've taken a few Rats around the block myself.
Best, Ron
On 8/27/2009 at 7:07pm, Lance D. Allen wrote:
RE: Re: [Rats in the Walls] Prep, questions, suggestions
Ron,
Something else I forgot to mention...
It's been pointed out that the system for finding successes, dice gains and dice losses is kind of confusing. This isn't a rules change, just a better way of explaining it.
Roll your dice. Count up the dice that are 7 or higher. This is your number of successes.
Now, discard all 2-4s and 9-11s. 1s and 12s are gained dice/change points. 5-8s are lost dice/lost Love. Mark losses/gains accordingly.
About the half-ass solution I gave to your question about what happens if the GM runs out of Challenge Pool dice: I've been ruminating on it since I posted last. It's a very basic question that never came up during my initial playtests, so I haven't thought about how to handle it before now. What I gave you will work for now, but the explanation is sloppy. Here's a bit better explanation.
In a regular Contest, the GM gains and loses Challenge dice the same as the player loses dice. However, when the player loses dice, the GM gains an equal number of Challenge dice. If the GM has a stake in a Contest, but cannot roll at least 3 dice, he may have free dice to bring him up to 3. For each free die he receives, all players receive a free Ability die to roll in the Contest. Losses rolled on these free dice do not reduce the applicable value (Ability/Challenge), but gains rolled do increase them.
In a Change, where the GM must roll twice as many Challenge dice as the player rolls Hate dice, he loses Challenge dice when a player would lose Love, and gains Challenge dice when the player would gain Change points. When a player loses Love, the GM gains an equal number of Challenge dice. If the GM does not have enough Challenge dice, he may have a number of free dice to bring him up to the required value (Hate x 2). The player receives a number of free Hate dice equal to half, rounded down, of the GM's free Challenge dice. Losses rolled on these free dice do not reduce the applicable value (Love/Challenge), but gains rolled do increase as normal (Change points/Challenge).
Note that there are a few small additions there, about gains/losses. I think these help make this solution much less lopsided.