Alright, this topic is to be used for the discussion of my unnamed ruleslite super hero RPG.
Discussion about its semi-free form Powers creation system can be found here.

I consider my character creation to be lacking. Of course, this isn't a completed game so I'm not sweating it. =)

Character Generation is done, currently, in six steps...
1) Attributes
2) Stats
3) Powers
4) Skills
5) optional Distinguishing Traits
6) Equipment

I don't include steps like talking to the GM or creating a character concept because these are inherent within the character creation process.

Step One: Attributes
Distribute 16 points across the six Attributes; Might (MI), Toughness (TO), Agility (AG), Perception (PE), Intellect (IN) and Will (WI).
Attributes are ranked from 1 to 5. 1=poor 2=average 3=potent 4=superhuman 5=superhuman peak
Each Rank is associated with a die from D4 (1) to D12 (5).

Step Two: Statistics
20 points are split between Hit Points and Power Points. These form the Base values for these two statistics. Hp is increased by [TO] and Pp is increased by [IN].

Step Three: Powers
Step A) Keywords The group decides between Manual and Random Keyword selection, or a perhaps a medium in between. Random is resolved by a die roll on a table. The group is also responsible for determining if there are any restricted Keyword combos or if there are specific Keywords that are not allowed at all. In addition, encouragement for creating new Keywords is present as long as everyone agrees it is okay.
Step B) Theme Players now write out their Theme based on their character's Keywords. Theme is basically a description of what Keywords mean to their specific character's powers. In essence Theme is primarily used to tighten the focus and arrange more restrictions for the next step.
Step C Techniques Players now create three Techniques. Techniques represent what a hero's know-how as relates to his powers. These are extremely specific in nature but are only as detailed as the group decides is necessary.

Step Four: Skills
Each player creates 2 to 4 Skills and then distributes 8 points amongst them. Skills are ranked the same way as Attributes. Since Skills are created, their applications must be described in short.
All characters begin with the Power Control Skill at Rank 1. This is the Skill each character uses when determining the success or failure of his power use.

Step Five: Distinguishing Traits
Completely optional and totally superfluous. Each player may roll on the Distinguishing Traits table to generate some kind of special mark like a tattoo, scar, etc... Nothing major.

Step Six: Equipment
The players discuss amongst themselves an agreeable method of gaining equipment... mostly based on Skills and Powers (specifically if powers are built as gadgets).

[center]Resolution Mechanic[/center]
Actions that require resolving are done like so...

1) Choose one applicable Attribute and Skill. If no Skill applies, no problem. You just won't be rolling two dice.

2) You roll the appropriate Rank Die for both Attribute and Skill.

3) Take the highest result between the two dice. Apply difficulty modifiers, which often range from +2 to -2. The final value is called the Effort. If the Effort is four or higher, success! Or, if it is higher than the opponent's Effort, success!

4) Hero Points can be spent if you are using the Power Control Skill. Hero Points are split into Fate and Fortune. Fortune is replenished daily while Fate serves as a cap for Fortune. Fortune allows rerolls, Fate causes automatic successes.

5) If the Effort is 4 or higher than the TN (which is either 4 or the result of an opponent's roll) than a Critical Success is gained. Critical Success allows the character to gain one of the following; do it faster, do it better, do it with more versatility or do it with additional effects. The precise effect of the selection should be discussed between the player and the GM.

Battle Note: Battle works pretty much like this only with an Initiative Phase to determine order. Additionally, damage dealt is equal to the Effort plus any damage bonuses. The average character should have about 22 Hp and with the application of attack powers and clever use of the environment... most heroes won't survive more than 3 hits.

A lot of Savage Worlds inspiration here in the mechanics, I realize.
Any observations, comments, questions, criticisms and what-not are welcome. =)

Hi MacLeod,

Have you tired applying your free-form method of power generation to other parts of character generation?

While making a character in the other thread, I noticed I'd a pretty solid idea of my character after choosing powers, without any need for attributes and stats.  Since this part of the process, the powers, are the biggest identifier of a character in a super hero game, why not have this as the first step in character creation?  I think you should be aiming to strip the rules right down, right to the bare bones of the story, and then you need to ask yourself 'what can I add to make this better?'

I would consider shuffling the steps in character generation to focus on the most important parts of character generation first.  In my mind, this would be powers first, then skills.  After that, I would consider whether stats and attributes are important.  Does including stats for your characters improve the story, or the purpose of your game?  If you're aiming for rules lite, are they necessary?

For example, let's say I create a character (continuing Hugo Babbage from the last thread)...

1) Powers
Keywords: Create, Machine
Theme: Robot bug generator inside his body
Techniques: Creepy (Can scout ahead with his army of unseen robot bugs), Crawly (His insects can crawl over him to create a kind of moving armour), Swarm (The bugs shoot out from the dark corners to attack with chitting blades and buzzing prongs)

2) Skills
Assuming there are no attributes, I can be vague.  Let's say I just choose a 'skill set', which represents my job, like in Primetime Adventures.  I'll choose Experimental Engineer.

I need to get something out of the way before I start this post up for real.
I believe in creating entertainment through games. For me, if the end result is entertainment then the job of the game has been completed.
If entertainment is found through the creation of an in-depth story or strong roleplaying, that's great. However, if it is found through the "shallow" exploration of combat and just plain using special powers in cool ways... how can anyone possibly deny the value of such entertainment?

To me the super hero genre is about two things; 1) Cool characters 2) Heroic acts.
To make a hero look cool, he performs heroic acts. Heroism involves saving folks and putting oneself in the path of danger. Danger is often provided by villains. Villains create violence. Violence requires combat. Combat requires the quantification of certain items.

How do you think the removal of stats and Attributes enhance the game?
Do you think the implementation of these items make the game 'medium crunch'? Or, is that an association that is automatically assumed when Attributes and Hp are included?

All of that said, how would you go about creating an entertaining combat system with detailed powers but with no method of measuring health or limiting power use?
I know alternate methods of measuring health exists and that many folks believe Hp to be an antiquated idea... but I find it simple and familiar... Comfortable.

Sebastian wrote:
Have you tried applying your free-form method of power generation to other parts of character generation?

While making a character in the other thread, I noticed I'd a pretty solid idea of my character after choosing powers, without any need for attributes and stats. I think you should be aiming to strip the rules right down, right to the bare bones of the story, and then you need to ask yourself 'what can I add to make this better?'

It sounds like you know what you want from the game and that's great.  GO for it!

How do you think the removal of stats and Attributes enhance the game?

Do you think the implementation of these items make the game 'medium crunch'? Or, is that an association that is automatically assumed when Attributes and Hp are included?

All of that said, how would you go about creating an entertaining combat system with detailed powers but with no method of measuring health or limiting power use?

The average character should have about 22 Hp and with the application of attack powers and clever use of the environment... most heroes won't survive more than 3 hits.

I like to have things with which to compare each character with; Attributes and Statistics. Its a nice little core that each character shares to remind them that they are all still human.

If that is too crunchy then I likely won't be able to please you.

I think you've cleared up a lot of your points and I'm pretty sure that I misinterpreted what you were saying previously. =)

When you said

'Have you tired applying your free-form method of power generation to other parts of character generation?'

Sebastian wrote: Using your system as a guideline, I would instruct average characters to roll 2d6 to complete an action.  If they can invoke one of their skill-sets, they could promote the dice to 2d8.  If they could invoke two of their skill-sets they could promote the dice to 2d10, etc.  This would include techniques too, therefore offering the best chance of success to actions that involve a character's skill-sets and his powers.

The problem here is that characters can't be terrible.  As in, they can't be really clumsy or dumb or particularly ugly.  You could add flaws (skill-sets that the character rolls at 2d4).  Perhaps by invoking these, the player receives Hero Points...

Why not just say that a hero can only take 3 hits?  If they have some power, like armour, give them an extra hit.  In combat, a successful attack does 1 hit of damage.

I've let some of these ideas brew for a while...

Characters consist of four items, mechanically speaking: Traits, Powers, Equipment and Hero Points.

Traits are broken down into Attributes, Skill and Flaws. Rookie characters have 8 Traits, split across the three categories as they see fit.

Task Resolution is largely the same except that now Traits are selected. Any amount within any, some or all categories may be selected as long as they apply to the situation.
Dice are thrown as D4/D4, AKA Rank 0. Each Attribute selected increases the Rank of the 1st die by 1, Skills increase the 2nd die's Rank by 1, Flaws decrease the Rank of both dice by 1 and Techniques increase the Rank of both dice by 1.
Invoking Flaws during resolution gives you a chance at snagging a Hero Point if the roll is still successful. Folks may force others to invoke their Flaws by taking the appropriate precautions (such as wielding Kryptonite against Superman). When exploited this way, you gain a Hero Point if you fail.

I still haven't figured out what I want to do with health/damage though. Dealing damage to Traits is too PDQ/RISUS and I'm not entirely positive its that great of a system.
I'm still thinking about the Hp mechanic... its simple and the numbers differ great enough to give characters a reason to big up a boulder instead of throwing a punch.

Then again, perhaps I can combine the two?
PCs and Greater Villains have 18 Hp. Lesser Villains have 12. Minion have 6.
If a non-Minion is brought to 0 Hp, he enters a Critical State. While Critical, the character can barely move and any kind of exertion will result in unconsciousness.
Every time a non-Minion is damaged, he may choose to check off an Attribute or a Skill. If he does so, he does not take any damage from that attack. When task resolution comes along that would logically include the checked off Trait, that roll takes a -1 Rank to the appropriate die.
If a non-Minion enters a Critical State and has all of his Attributes and Skills checked off, he dies.
Every 24 hours, players may remove one check of their choice.
Hp automatically regenerates to full whenever someone has had a good 30 ~ 60 minutes of rest.

Or... Whenever a non-Minion enters the Critical State, he may check off an Attribute/Skill and regain 6 Hp automatically. Either way it is a choice to check anything off. Sometimes the player would rather let his character get captured than die. Other times, a death match is in order.

Traits are broken down into Attributes, Skill and Flaws. Rookie characters have 8 Traits, split across the three categories as they see fit.

Flaws decrease the Rank of both dice by 1

Folks may force others to invoke their Flaws by taking the appropriate precautions (such as wielding Kryptonite against Superman). When exploited this way, you gain a Hero Point if you fail.

Whenever a non-Minion enters the Critical State, he may check off an Attribute/Skill and regain 6 Hp automatically. Either way it is a choice to check anything off.

When task resolution comes along that would logically include the checked off Trait, that roll takes a -1 Rank to the appropriate die.

Sebastian wrote: Nice.  I love that.

Does that mean 1d4/1d4 will be demoted to 0/0?

I think this is the best.  In comics and films, there's a lot of... "If I... Could... Just... Move.. My... Arm..."  and 'second wind' situations.  I think 0 should be a straight K.O.   Then, like you say, the PC can 'spend' an attribute or skill to regain some HP.  He could even spend more than 1 Attribute at a time.

By removing the Attribute or Skill, the character is already suffering a loss to his die roll.  Is it necessary to add in further punishment (and book keeping)?

The system really appeals to me.  It's pretty open ended.  Could you describe a damage roll for me?  I'd like to see how a quick, light character (let's call her Aikida) would use a kung-fu style to hurt a big boulder fellow (let's call him Dr. Meteor)... but also how Dr. Meteor would use his strength attributes and powers to hurt her in turn.  Any chance of a quick two round example of combat between the two?

..........Mana Hart, AKA Aikida
Occupation: News Reporter
Weapon of Choice: Ancient Kung-Fu Mastery
Traits: (A) Perceptive, Genius, Fleet Footed (S) Investigative Journalism, Computers, Martial Arts, Stealth (F) Refuses to kill.
Keywords: Air, Time
Theme: Aikida is a descendant of an ancient line of supernatural martial artist. The legacy of the Hart clan is the ability to manipulate the immortal force known only as the Ageless Winds.
.....Techniques
Temporal Wind Lance

Aikida is capable of gathering the ambient energies of the Ageless Winds to create a sky blue spiraling shaft of power. This energy shaft may emanate from any of her limbs and is capable of piercing or bludgeoning. Using the bludgeoning power she can actually launch herself high into the air.

By summoning the Ageless Winds, Aikida can accelerate the rate at which she moves exponentially. She may also use this effect on objects and beings she touches.

By attuning herself with the Ageless Winds, Aikida's body takes on its properties. This allows her to move short distances instantly while remaining intangible.

Dr. Meteor can alter the shape of the metal that surrounds his torso. He can create any shape as long as the size of these creations doesn't exceed 3' x 3'.

Dr. Meteor is capable of covering his metal ally in flames hot enough to melt most common metals. He may also fling these flames.

Dr. Meteor is capable of hurling parts of his space steel by first melting it. These parts automatically form specific structures that are controlled by Dr. Meteor psychically. These creations cannot exceed the size of a 5' man.

True. I just tend to twist knives, if you know what I mean.

Your forecast for today is pain with a high of trauma and a chance for... DEATH!"

However, Aikida's taunt evoked Dr. Meteor's 'Easily Taunted' Flaw and so his Effort is reduced by 1 to 6.

The attack hits and the the construct is fast forwarded 9 Rounds into the future but it falls apart long before it reaches the 9th Round.

* Perhaps Minions always roll D6/D6 instead of generating Traits for them?

Instead of restoring Hp, the GM rules that Dr. Meteor knocks a pillar over onto a group of kids while racing off. Aikida has to save the kids and Dr. Meteor gets away...

Sebastian wrote: Awesome.

I presume that in game, the flaw would have been invoked by the player/GM before the roll?  How would that character be rewarded for announcing the flaw, in this case?

I like this attack.  Very cunning indeed!  So, you get to choose how the damage is implemented?  Cool.  Just to get back to numbers, how was the damage determined?  Is it a case of 'beat the target and use the die result'?

Sounds good to me.

I like the idea that you can spend an Attribute to retreat.

Do you think that kind of situation will happen a lot?  Where two characters are rolling the same sorts of dice each attack and defence?  Will Veteran characters have much of an advantage?  Where would that advantage come from?

How do you see team-work happening in play?  That's a common strategy in super hero comics, no?

Have you read the lite version of Capes[/url ]?

I'm clearly a newbie here, but it seems like a natural thing not to want to cover the same ground someone else has. If you do cover the same ground, you want to be able to contribute to it or cover different land.
GURPS, Capes, and With Great Power... all seem like superheroy games, but there's something that each contributes to the genre.
What do you want to do differently than they have done?
Superficial differences ("new powers!") won't stick, but a substantial divergences ("You're a normal human nurturing a relationship with a super!") will give the game enough heart to see its creation through to the end.

(Anyone, feel free to take over the 'normal human with a relationship'. I am *not* using that one yet.)

I'm not trying to come off as dickish here, so you know Mr. Youssef. =)

I don't know anything about With Great Power but I do know that GURPS and Capes both do a lot of things I don't like. I've read through Aberrant, Hero, M&M and Wild Talents as well. None of the aforementioned games  provide what I am looking for.

So, I figure... if I haven't found what I'm looking for in a superhero RPG, then perhaps others are having the same problem? I wouldn't be so arrogant as to think that my solution will be the key to their problem but you never know.

Finally... I'm not 100% positive that I really need to be too careful of treading on a preexisting idea. First of all, I don't currently intend to make any money off of this idea. Second, this is more for me than anyone else. Who knows if I'll ever even get to playtest it! I do know that I really want a superhero RPG that I can personally enjoy.

Also, at this stage I'm just trying to get a core set of mechanic pounded into shape, ya know? I'm not sure what will happen once everything else falls into place. I'm not exactly the type to 'finish' anything anyways. x_x

Like what you have down so far. The power creation rules are very innovative. Though I don't usually like free-form power rules, choosing the two elements and putting them together is creative, and see power creation as being very fun.

I'm a bit pinched for time, but had some questions. I'll try not to linger on ground that has been covered too much.

With the characteristic rules as free-form as they are, are you concerned with players gravitating towards creating attributes, skills, etc. that contribute solely to combat and nothing else? If so, do you see any way to cap or provide disincentive for doing thing? Is it important that characters be diverse in there abilities?

I only bring this up from playing in games, where one person (or maybe a couple; just no the entire group) puts a bunch of eggs in the combat basket, making them much better at fighting. The more well rounded players feel they've made a dumb choice to be good at something other than combat, so they start doing the same thing. I would imagine this is not uncommon among other gaming groups. Do you see this happening with your game? Is this a concern to you?

So far, the powers seem to operate in the same range of potency. Have you given thought to powers that have extra effect upon success? Perhaps resolution proceeds as normal, but on a successful hit, extra effect is added to mark abilities that have more raw power behind them. Perhaps instead of choosing an additional technique, the player can put a star by an existing technique, making it more potent. Just an idea. Thoughts?

At some point, I remember reading about Power Points. Is that still a game element? How does that work?

In the combat example, the characters each picked a technique and some characteristics, and brought it to bear against the opponent. What would happen if one of the combatants just wanted to defend themselves without the chance of inflicting damage? Would you see a defensive bonus for this? How would that work?

Also, I don't think there is a problem with Hit Points. The term (and concept of) HPs make me think of something a little bit deeper than just Health. I think of them as the narrative mix of health, luck, skill, etc., and I think this works pretty good for supers. Considering the lite nature of the game, HPs seem to be a perfect fit.

Like what you have so far. Looking foward to reading more.

Keep it up,

Ken

I think doubles might allow one to add his dice together.

A solution might be to rate each Attribute/Skill and only allow one Attribute and one Skill to be used per roll. That way, if you put your points into combat-related Traits you will be a tough fighter but if you don't you'll get whupped on.
This creates a different problem though... making smarties useless in battle. You know even the tough guys will have a utility skill and/or power to help outside of battle...

Perhaps an ally could spend a Hero Point to assist his buddy, increasing the Rank of his dice or even add a third die.

Ken wrote: I don't usually like free-form power rules

I'm a bit pinched for time, but had some questions.

With the characteristic rules as free-form as they are, are you concerned with players gravitating towards creating attributes, skills, etc. that contribute solely to combat and nothing else? If so, do you see any way to cap or provide disincentive for doing thing? Is it important that characters be diverse in there abilities?

Do you see this happening with your game? Is this a concern to you?

So far, the powers seem to operate in the same range of potency. Have you given thought to powers that have extra effect upon success? Perhaps resolution proceeds as normal, but on a successful hit, extra effect is added to mark abilities that have more raw power behind them. Perhaps instead of choosing an additional technique, the player can put a star by an existing technique, making it more potent. Just an idea. Thoughts?

At some point, I remember reading about Power Points. Is that still a game element? How does that work?

In the combat example, the characters each picked a technique and some characteristics, and brought it to bear against the opponent. What would happen if one of the combatants just wanted to defend themselves without the chance of inflicting damage? Would you see a defensive bonus for this? How would that work?

Sebastian wrote:
Careful here.  Lower dice (2d4s) double more often than larger dice (2d8s).

You know, after thinking about it, I think I raised that point of Davids vs Goliaths too early.  I was doing some thinking, and it occurred to me that it's actually a Good Thing that wimps can compete in combat (as long as the player is creative enough).  You may be playing a wimpy nerd, but he is a super wimpy nerd after all.  I'd keep the original idea (tagging attributes/skills/etc.) and see if there are problems during playtesting.  Sorry for muddying the issue.

Good idea.  Or he could use an action to add one of his techniques to the roll (adding a +1) [So if 3 PCs teamed up against a giant robot, for example, the acting player might get a +2 bonus to his roll].

Lastly, just to reinforce the point, I think the nerd vs. brawler potential could actually be one of the best parts of the game.

Indeed. x_x How about a +1 instead? Its not too massive but it still produces a positive effect.

I'm not too worried about creating a lot of crunch anyways.

For sure, Mr. Hickey. =)
Today is class day so I won't get much time to tinker with it unfortunately. Which is sad because I had this great momentum going for the project, too.

MacLeod wrote: As of right now, they have been removed. I was thinking that as part of the mechanical suggestions that players could add 'Draining' to a Power to limit its number of uses BUT give it additional effects.

MacLeod wrote: A villain lashes out a near by crowd by you stop the attack dead in its tracks, making you feel like a million bucks... you regain 4 Hp automatically. That sort of thing.

Ken wrote: I skirted around that with Ten-Cent Heroes, by just considering it as damage. Another way of dealing with it without having to create extra stats may be just to create an action penalty for being drained. You character uses a power and then succumbs to the penalty for a certain amount of time. Just an idea.

That is an interesting idea, and neatly fits into both the genre and your esoteric use of HPs. In comics, a character's most important attribute is their relevance. It doesn't matter how strong or powerful they are, if they are not important to the story, fate usually finds a way (no matter how unrealistic) to take them out. Likewise, important characters always seem to come back dramatically when they are needed (not when a doctor says its possible for them get back to work). Good stuff!

Glad to see this developing. I'm a big fan of super games and really like your angle here. Keep it up!

MacLeod wrote:
I'm not one to finish anything I've started but at the same time this game has gotten way more attention than any other project I've started... so perhaps I'll actually follow through with this one for a change.

This looks really nice.  The freeform power generation is one of the better focused prose power description systems I've seen.

I think you may be underutilizing the "flaw" mechanic, here.  In particular, you mention that you like to "twist the knife," so powers crossed out give a penalty instead of a bonus when that trait would have been used.

Folding that into the "flaw" mechanic -- crossed off traits become flaws until you can fix the issue -- and not only do you have fewer "moving parts" but you get some lovely moral/tactical choices.

Do you invoke your opponent's flaw and hammer him, thus strengthening his resolve to fight back?

Or do you, out of a sense of mercy or honor, avoid poking him where it hurts?

Do you strive to overcome your weakness, knowing the path is harder but the rewards great?

Or do you husband your strength, avoiding unnecessary difficulties?

Especially since the bad guys are more likely to poke at people's vulnerable spots, this means that fighting and losing to a vicious villain you can build up the ooph to take him out later.

Second place for reusing the Flaw mechanic -- if there are powers with extra punch, rather than making them cost some generic resource, you could have them apply a flaw to the character for a short period.  Maybe Battle Rage helps you lay on the hurt, but you're Stuck in the Red Tunnel -- unable to pay attention to anything but smacking your foe as hard as possible.  Or perhaps your Stonebody lets you eat up damage like nobody's business, but makes you Ponderously Heavy.  Or the Omega Power Band Blast leaves you Weak and Strung Out.

I read a comic once where one of the characters would start to bliss out if she used her powers too much, and lose track of the battle in the face of the high.  It was pretty nifty.

Anyway, this looks like an awsome light system for people into creative superhero play.  I'm looking forward to more updates :']

Ken wrote: It sounds like, based on your expectations or how long the rules were going to be, that you could be almost done. You could always come back to it later with a revised version. Playtesting is key. Get to it, and good luck.

Zebediah wrote: This looks really nice.  The freeform power generation is one of the better focused prose power description systems I've seen.
Anyway, this looks like an awesome light system for people into creative superhero play.  I'm looking forward to more updates :']

I think you may be under utilizing the "flaw" mechanic, here.  In particular, you mention that you like to "twist the knife," so powers crossed out give a penalty instead of a bonus when that trait would have been used.
Folding that into the "flaw" mechanic -- crossed off traits become flaws until you can fix the issue -- and not only do you have fewer "moving parts" but you get some lovely moral/tactical choices.

Second place for reusing the Flaw mechanic -- if there are powers with extra punch, rather than making them cost some generic resource, you could have them apply a flaw to the character for a short period.  Maybe Battle Rage helps you lay on the hurt, but you're Stuck in the Red Tunnel -- unable to pay attention to anything but smacking your foe as hard as possible.  Or perhaps your Stonebody lets you eat up damage like nobody's business, but makes you Ponderously Heavy.  Or the Omega Power Band Blast leaves you Weak and Strung Out.