Hi. I want to create an D&D-inspired game system. "D&D-inspired" means: Class-based, level-based. otherwise, it's my own and has very little to do with D&D. It is meant to cover all classic Fantasy, everything from Sword & Sorcery to High Fantasy, from Psionics to Time Travel and Plane-hopping.

Now I would be interested in finding out what the rules have to cover for a very complex system that covers everything from the above. However, at this point, setting is still a non-factor, as the rules will be designed to use any campaign setting. So please don't put in any answers that only concern the secondary aspects, i. e. setting of a RPG. Stuff like: "You need to explain why there are so many mages. Is magic really so simple over there?" Since that would concern the campaign setting, NOT the game per se.

For the moment, let's just concentrate on the most basic elements of Fantasy gaming, those elements that would be part of almost every fantasy game in some form or other.Let's see, what elements did I come up with?  Character generation, obviously. Rules for building, maintaining and ruling dominions. A combat system. A melee combat system. A mass combat system. Rules for movement, time & healing. Rules for the generation of deities. Planar travel. A Skill system. A magic system. Psionics. Money & Equipment.

The most important part: Character Classes. What would you people consider the most important classes of all, the most archetypic, the ones part of just about every major Fantasy saga? Remember, the point is not discussing whether a game needs classes or not: It's already a given that classes (Archetypes for character-types in a tale) are a major part of this game.

Until now, I came up with the following Classes:

The Fighter: From Conan to Arthur and everything in between, the fighter is the single most important part of Fantasy Literature and Gaming.

The Mage: See above, from Gandalf to Merlin.

The Healer: Think Elrond, think Goldmoon.

The Bard: The "spell-singer" who charms other people or even objects with his music is a major part of mythic lore. Think Orpheus, think Kalevala.

The Thief: The seedy character who's good with traps etc. is in fantasy literature just as archetypic a character as the healer, and even moreso in fantasy gaming. Think Bilbo, think the Gray Mouser, think Cyric.

The Cleric: Rather than using healing spells (a role already filled by the Healer), the Cleric serves some "deity" and uses miracles granted by that deity-- kind of like the AD&D 2rd Ed Priest.

Those six I consider the "core classes". All other character classes can be "sub-classes" of one of these classes. What do you say? Any ideas, especially whether you believe the Bard, Healer and Cleric different enough from each other and important enough to be major classes?

Also, what other classes -"core" or "sub" - would you add? I myself would add Ranger, Monk, Paladin and Seer (the 3 first ones as sub-classes of the Fighter, the last one as a sub-class of the Cleric).

Again, what's your idea to this?

Sword Wielding Mage
As with Elric of Melnibone, or perhaps the Jedi of Star Wars if you really want to stretch it. You might consider making this an option for mages rather than a class in itself. Why not? Gandalf had a sword. Even Harry Potter got to use a sword.

Evil Armor Wearing Mage
Sometimes the players don't want to be the good guys. Sometimes they want to play as a Sauron or a Darth Vader or a Doctor Doom so they can cover their faces in scary armor and shoot spells at people. This might not be a good idea for a base class, but I think make a neat option for higher level mages.

The Tourist and his Luggage
A Discworld reference, I admit. Let's think about this though... Frodo from Lord of the Rings, Dorothy from The Wonderful Wizard of Oz, Hank Morgan of A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court. These are all major characters in their respective stories, but what class would you put them in? What they all have in common is that they are outsiders thrust into a strange and fantastic world with little but their magical (or seemingly magical) artifacts to aid them.

I have to agree with the "Tourist and His Luggage," definitely a prevalent trope in the fantasy genre.

You might want to define what you want each class to delineate. Is it what the character does primarily to achieve her aims (fight, cast spells, sneak around, play music), or is it the aims themselves (conquer, heal, steal, charm, obey my deity)? I think answer this question will determine which classes stay and which go.

What is your goal in creating a D&D-inspired game that is not D&D?

If you haven't already, you should probably read Dave Noonan's series on the origins of the archetypical "roles" in RPGs: http://nnnooner.blogspot.com/2009/09/roles-where-do-we-go-from-here.html

He has some interesting ideas on the emergence of the "Tank" and "Healer" as core roles, and how their emergence was more happenstance than "oh yeah Tolkien had a Tank so we should too!".

Hi.

chronoplasm wrote:
Sword Wielding Mage
As with Elric of Melnibone, or perhaps the Jedi of Star Wars if you really want to stretch it. You might consider making this an option for mages rather than a class in itself. Why not? Gandalf had a sword. Even Harry Potter got to use a sword.

chronoplasm wrote:
Evil Armor Wearing Mage
Sometimes the players don't want to be the good guys. Sometimes they want to play as a Sauron or a Darth Vader or a Doctor Doom so they can cover their faces in scary armor and shoot spells at people. This might not be a good idea for a base class, but I think make a neat option for higher level mages.

chronoplasm wrote:
The Tourist and his Luggage
A Discworld reference, I admit. Let's think about this though... Frodo from Lord of the Rings, Dorothy from The Wonderful Wizard of Oz, Hank Morgan of A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court. These are all major characters in their respective stories, but what class would you put them in? What they all have in common is that they are outsiders thrust into a strange and fantastic world with little but their magical (or seemingly magical) artifacts to aid them.

Mulrah wrote:
I have to agree with the "Tourist and His Luggage," definitely a prevalent trope in the fantasy genre.

You might want to define what you want each class to delineate. Is it what the character does primarily to achieve her aims (fight, cast spells, sneak around, play music), or is it the aims themselves (conquer, heal, steal, charm, obey my deity)? I think answer this question will determine which classes stay and which go.

Mulrah wrote:
What is your goal in creating a D&D-inspired game that is not D&D?

Guy wrote:
If you haven't already, you should probably read Dave Noonan's series on the origins of the archetypical "roles" in RPGs: http://nnnooner.blogspot.com/2009/09/roles-where-do-we-go-from-here.html

He has some interesting ideas on the emergence of the "Tank" and "Healer" as core roles, and how their emergence was more happenstance than "oh yeah Tolkien had a Tank so we should too!".

Andur wrote:

I finally ditched the Adventurer class a few months ago, since I thought there are too few precedents in literature, and players wouldn't want to play an adventurer, since this class is less developed (and hence, less powerful) than any other.

Was I wrong about this? Would there a demand after an adventurer class after all?

To add to the previous post:
I want to see something that plays with the idea of 'anachronism'. Something like Dr. Who.

I asking about how you were defining "character class," and I offered two possibilities: 1) what the class generally does (swing a sword, cast spells) in the game or 2) their role in the game (healer, tank, etc.). It sounds like your answer would be neither, and that you are just trying to identify the most common types of characters that appear in fantasy stories, whether there's an internal logic separating them or not.

Honestly, I don't think the original D&D was too far off the mark with Fighters, Magic-Users, Clerics, and Thieves. My understanding is that the limitations on these classes (no armor, no sharp weapons) were attempts to balance the classes, even though this made D&D unable to simulate all fantasy worlds. Additional classes were spin-offs of these original classes (Barbarians, Bards, etc.). Of these, I'd say the Bard is the most unique, and the first one you ought to consider in addition to the original four, in addition to the Tourist with Luggage, which I don't think D&D was trying to incorporate.

Mulrah wrote:
I asking

Hmmm. . . I'm not quite sure how applicable this is to the conversation but have you looked at Tarot Cards? The high arcana in particular seems to cover a good number of character archetypes, though it might be more specific then what you're looking for, a good link to it is here: http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/learn/meanings/ As for the Adventurer class maybe you can spice it up by adding sort of a "fate" mechanic that allows him to acomplish things others wouldn't be able to do though seemingly luck and maybe a mechanic that allows you to train into a different class. Also a good place to find stuff like that would be http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HomePage they have pages on all sorts of things including what you're looking at.

Er, did that make any sense?

chronoplasm wrote:

Andur wrote:

I finally ditched the Adventurer class a few months ago, since I thought there are too few precedents in literature, and players wouldn't want to play an adventurer, since this class is less developed (and hence, less powerful) than any other.

Was I wrong about this? Would there a demand after an adventurer class after all?

I'd play it if it was done well. I like the idea of a contemporary person transported into a fantastic medieval world. For a low level character you could have someone like Fone Bone from Bone and for a high level character you could have someone like Ash from Army of Darkness. They might bring knowledge of modern technology with them and may even have a few such devices with them (cameras, pocket watches, flashlights, bicycles, chainsaws). They could be very genre savvy, and even break the fourth wall at times. If they are transported back from the future they may have advance knowledge of events that are yet to happen (predicting solar eclipses, etc.)

Ah. Now it becomes clear to me.

Mulrah wrote:
I asking about how you were defining "character class," and I offered two possibilities: 1) what the class generally does (swing a sword, cast spells) in the game or 2) their role in the game (healer, tank, etc.). It sounds like your answer would be neither, and that you are just trying to identify the most common types of characters that appear in fantasy stories, whether there's an internal logic separating them or not.

Mulrah wrote:
Honestly, I don't think the original D&D was too far off the mark with Fighters, Magic-Users, Clerics, and Thieves. My understanding is that the limitations on these classes (no armor, no sharp weapons) were attempts to balance the classes, even though this made D&D unable to simulate all fantasy worlds. Additional classes were spin-offs of these original classes (Barbarians, Bards, etc.). Of these, I'd say the Bard is the most unique, and the first one you ought to consider in addition to the original four, in addition to the Tourist with Luggage, which I don't think D&D was trying to incorporate.

7VII7 wrote:
Hmmm. . . I'm not quite sure how applicable this is to the conversation but have you looked at Tarot Cards? The high arcana in particular seems to cover a good number of character archetypes, though it might be more specific then what you're looking for, a good link to it is here: http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/learn/meanings/ As for the Adventurer class maybe you can spice it up by adding sort of a "fate" mechanic that allows him to acomplish things others wouldn't be able to do though seemingly luck and maybe a mechanic that allows you to train into a different class. Also a good place to find stuff like that would be http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HomePage they have pages on all sorts of things including what you're looking at.

Er, did that make any sense?

Andur wrote:
I'm totally with you about the bard and the 4 D&D classes. But what about the different classes of Cleric and Healer? A Healer heals (and can brew poisons and healing potions). A Cleric is pretty much cast in the role of  a AD&D 2nd Ed Priest: he doesn't heal (unless he serves a god of healing; but than he needs levels in the Healer class, too), but a Cleric gets "Miracles" from his deity. Seems to me both are equally represented in literature, and both are equally different from each other yet important enough to standard Fantasy gaming that they should belong in the basic ("core") classes. However, if I had to drop either the Cleric or the Healer, I'd probably ditch the Cleric, since "Healing" is an archetypical element of both literature and gaming. More important than unleashing fireballs in the service of a fire god. What's your view of it?

Mulrah wrote:
I would also drop Cleric. Whenever I played D&D, I always thought "Healer" when a Cleric was in play; we never played up the religious aspects much. I don't think religious elements are as prevalent in fantasy as the Healer character type, and, when "religion" is present, it's frequently synonymous with "magic." I think it's better to use a classic "Healer" class, and then graft religion on depending on the setting, possibly creating "religious" versions of each class (Paladins, Clerics, etc.).

If you're looking for solid archetypes that appear in a lot of fantasy and folklore, here's three that get almost no effective representation in D&D:

The Wise Elder.  Gandalf certainly fills this role, as would yoda, and most mentors and a moderate number of questionable adversaries and guides in folklore.

The wise elder does little directly.  He (or she) advises and aids the other characters, often letting them struggle through things with only a few clues.  The wise elder often has a trick or two he can play, at great cost (gandalf stopping the balrog), which explains why they aren't stepping up with their massive wisdom and tricks more often.  Abilities tend toward lots of "lore" skills, plenty of aid through advice (or old war stories), and better aid through forcing people through odd sidequests, or hinder themselves for a time in some way.  Especially heavy in eastern settings, where the infuriating martial arts master is basically always a Wise Elder.

Although often NPCs, there are plenty that travel with the party as well.

The Guide.  The guide is the person who can get himself, and you if you'll just follow his damn directions, in and out of places noone should be able to.  They may have a particular area they understand well (the slums, the forest) or just be generally capable.  Vehicle optional.  I picked the term "the guide" instead of "the infiltrator" because, really, if you're doing this with a party, you want to bring your friends along.  NOTE: as often, a guide's tremendous skill is social as well as physical, knowing how to call on favors or talk their way through barriers.  Aragorn was a guide, although the D&D class reflects little of the skill he used to move the party.  Jack Sparrow has a few levels in this, although he's mostly a Blessed Fool.  Han Solo, although in a "scifi" setting, is an excellent example of a Guide.

The Blessed Fool.  These characters are ALL OVER in folklore.  They tend to have some central conceit, whether its innocence, bravery, fearlessness, kindness, or whatever.  By adhering to this, they Attract Friends and Influence People.  Woo do they.  Monsters play games with them rather than fighting, old ladies and strange little men grant them wishes, birds pick their lentles out of the ashes, and lions come to their rescue, remembering that thorn removed from their paw.  Note that there's a flipside that works the same: the silly trickster, like Crow or Anansi or Loki (before he got too christianized): their "foolishness" is instead some sort of vice (usually laziness, gluttony, or avarice) and instead of people helping them out of goodwill, they bamboozle them but always seem to be forgiven -- and believed again -- later.  Some Blessed Fools play both sides at the same time, although those are usually depicted as being excessively childlike.

The "tourist and their luggage" is often a Blessed Fool, when they're not some kind of "jack of all trades" finding their spot as they settle down into their world.  They move through the world, but aren't really touched by it in the same way as everyone else.

If you're looking for good models of game-useful archetypes, and you don't want to dig through tomes and tomes of folklore motif indexes, I recommend Deliria.  They do a good job of putting together a lot of solid fantasy, urban fantasy, and folkloric archetypes, although probably at a slightly finer level than you're looking for -- they, for example, very clearly distinguish the Beast from the Knight, and the fey-touched musician from the bard.