Topic: Last ones I promise
Started by: Riddlemaster
Started on: 8/3/2002
Board: The Riddle of Steel
On 8/3/2002 at 2:25am, Riddlemaster wrote:
Last ones I promise
Sorry just got a few more.. Im doing a demp atthree diffrent game stores here in Jacksonville and i figure the way to get all the premade characters togther is a tournament. Justsome final questions... Im well versed in Kendo and Iado style of sword play and tournaments but fuzzy on Eurpoean style
1. HOw would you do non-lethat duels such as sword duels. Blunt weapons with tar on them? First Blood?? It just seems that even to first blood a lot of peole would die real quick? How would you do it.
2. Jousting.. even with blunted lances the sheer damage inflcited seems it would kill a knight. How is this done so the protagnist would still be alive?
3. Can enyone think of other events.. (missle weapons excluded of course i can handle that)
On 8/3/2002 at 2:32am, Riddlemaster wrote:
Crap and one more
1. Finally they mention Chain armor for chest and sleaves of leather ... wear is this armor anyway??
2. Leather leggings?? I know it be 2 av but any movement penalty??
On 8/3/2002 at 2:38am, Jaif wrote:
RE: Last ones I promise
There was a discussion of non-lethal combat awhile ago. I don't remember what came from that, but personally I would let people declare what strength they're using. Yeah, your strength might be 7, but you can start at 3 and see what that gets you.
-Jeff
On 8/3/2002 at 4:21am, Jake Norwood wrote:
Re: Crap and one more
Riddlemaster wrote: 1. Finally they mention Chain armor for chest and sleaves of leather ... wear is this armor anyway??
Buy a sleeveless chain shirt and a leather jack. Done.
2. Leather leggings?? I know it be 2 av but any movement penalty??
We're talking cuirboilli (sp?) leather here, not Harley pants. These wouldn't be real confortable, and I'm not sure that they ever even existed historically.
Jake
On 8/3/2002 at 9:06am, Mokkurkalfe wrote:
RE: Last ones I promise
In tRoS, is leather soft and flexible or hard(saw somewhere a full "plate" armor made of hard leather)?
Always wondered.
On 8/3/2002 at 2:32pm, Wolfen wrote:
RE: Last ones I promise
In tRoS, is leather soft and flexible or hard(saw somewhere a full "plate" armor made of hard leather)?
Always wondered.
It would depend on the type, location and purpose of the leather.
Cuirboulli is hard leather, made so by boiling it. The name itself literally means boiled leather, in fact. The process thickens it and makes it more rigid once it dries. Other processes may be used to harden the leather (wax, for example), but this seems to be the most historically accurate, and the most effective. It is used for larger plates of leather, and has the advantage of being both rigid and lighter-weight than steel and iron.
Softer leather, but still thick and somewhat rigid is often used in layers for armor, such as leather scale, and I *believe* some sorts of banded armor. It is also used in conjunction with plate and chain in places where strong protection from impact is not needed, but where the edges of plates might chafe, or where chain might wear.
Softer leather, such as suede, is rarely ever used in armor, except for cosmetics. However, thinner leathers are used in later period armor styles such as the brigandine or coat of plates. The leather is basically there purely to keep the plates in place over the body, and this set-up allows a greater flexibility than many rigid styles of armor, such as breastplates.
Do not take this as gospel, however. This is simply what I have learned in the past weeks of researching different armor styles, prior to committing cash to a set for my own use (stuff is expensive!) I may have come across some inaccurate information, though for the most part it appears sound.
As for the chain-vest and leather sleeves... You simply buy, as Jake said, the chain shirt w/o sleeves, and pay the difference in price between a sleeveless leather jack and a sleeved one for the leather sleeves. The bracers were something I extrapolated from gauntlets, and the arming glove I got the price and stats from Jake, in some PM or other way back.
On 8/4/2002 at 1:02am, Sneaky Git wrote:
RE: Last ones I promise
Wolfen wrote: The bracers were something I extrapolated from gauntlets, and the arming glove I got the price and stats from Jake, in some PM or other way back.
Ah.. I was wondering about the arming glove.. Care to share what you got from Jake? Cost, stats, etc.. It would be much appreciated. ;)
On 8/4/2002 at 3:41am, Wolfen wrote:
RE: Last ones I promise
Jake Norwood wrote: For an arming glove pay about half the price of one gauntlet (or 1/4 the price of the pair listed) and treat it as if if had the armor rating of chainmail (4).
Jake Norwood wrote: Go with 8 silver imperial standard for one set of gauntlets, or 2 silver for a simple arming glove. Bracers would be half of that or less, I figure.
Those are from PMs back and forth between us. Somewhere I remember him saying that if you tried to use the glove to parry a cut, that it would have a reduced AV of only 3, and would have the effect of a strike to the hand. However, I can't find this, so you'll have to take it on faith until he can confirm it for me.
Which, with some thought, would be worth it. Most cut-and-thrusters I imagine are pretty lightly armored, and a swing for the leg, or head would hurt immensely. Catching/deflecting with the glove, where you get to use the AV of 3 along with your natural toughness, instead of taking it full on your unprotected body, in a place that could cripple you... a worthwhile trade-off, if nothing else is possible (say, your sword is currently 10 feet away, and you can't evade)
Anyhow,
On 8/4/2002 at 8:39pm, Brian Leybourne wrote:
Re: Last ones I promise
Riddlemaster wrote: 2. Jousting.. even with blunted lances the sheer damage inflcited seems it would kill a knight. How is this done so the protagnist would still be alive?
Tourney jousting didn't use blunted lances. Well, yes, they were blunt, but they were also manufactured to splinter and break thus softening the impact. It still hurt like hell, presumably, but not enough to kill someone, just throw them off their horse. And if you don't want to be hurt, don't joust :-)
OBAM has rules for jousting actually, so you'll be able to read all about it.
Brian.
On 8/5/2002 at 4:41pm, Sneaky Git wrote:
RE: Re: Last ones I promise
Riddlemaster wrote: 2. Jousting.. even with blunted lances the sheer damage inflcited seems it would kill a knight. How is this done so the protagnist would still be alive?
I seem to remember reading somewhere that jousting armor was different from your typical suit of armor. More protection and (I would assume.. I recognize the danger there..) less mobility than a typical suit of field armor.
On 8/5/2002 at 4:47pm, Valamir wrote:
RE: Last ones I promise
You're almost right. By the time jousting reached the hieght of its pageantry, full plate had completely (or very nearly so) disappeared from the battlefield. Thus the ONLY suits of plate being designed at that time were designed specifically for the needs of the tourney
These were indeed much heavier and designed in ways that no sane person would ever try to use on the battle field.
If there was a time where specialized tourney platemail was being designed simultaneously with widespread battle field use armor it must have been very brief.
On 8/5/2002 at 5:07pm, Durgil wrote:
RE: Re: Last ones I promise
BrianL wrote: OBAM has rules for jousting actually, so you'll be able to read all about it.
Brian.
Why would Jousting Rules be included in Of Beasts and Men? I would have thought that it would be in The Flower of Battle Combat Supplement.
On 8/5/2002 at 6:18pm, Jake Norwood wrote:
RE: Last ones I promise
Valamir wrote: You're almost right. By the time jousting reached the hieght of its pageantry, full plate had completely (or very nearly so) disappeared from the battlefield. Thus the ONLY suits of plate being designed at that time were designed specifically for the needs of the tourney
These were indeed much heavier and designed in ways that no sane person would ever try to use on the battle field.
If there was a time where specialized tourney platemail was being designed simultaneously with widespread battle field use armor it must have been very brief.
Check out The Martial Arts of Rennaisance Europe, by Dr. Sydney Anglo. It'll open a whole new can on contemporary jousting and fighting armors.
Jake
On 8/5/2002 at 6:36pm, Valamir wrote:
RE: Last ones I promise
Oh yeah? Can you give me a couple ferinstances...has my knowledge on medieval armor been superceded...it probably has been about a decade since I spent any real time on the subject.
On 8/5/2002 at 6:43pm, Anthony I wrote:
RE: Last ones I promise
Jake Norwood wrote:
Check out The Martial Arts of Rennaisance Europe, by Dr. Sydney Anglo. It'll open a whole new can on contemporary jousting and fighting armors.
Jake
I found it interesting that for tourney, striking the horse was pretty must a faux pas, but, when applied to warfare, a strike to the horse was so unilaterally advised and recommended. You definitely see the change in the manuals from the time- the move from "real" to sport, from practical to show. Great book.
On 8/5/2002 at 8:35pm, Brian Leybourne wrote:
RE: Re: Last ones I promise
Durgil wrote:BrianL wrote: OBAM has rules for jousting actually, so you'll be able to read all about it.
Brian.
Why would Jousting Rules be included in Of Beasts and Men? I would have thought that it would be in The Flower of Battle Combat Supplement.
Because oBaM has the animal rules, including horses and horseback combat (and barding, maneuvers, etc etc blah blah). And jousting is a natural extension from that.
Brian.
On 8/5/2002 at 9:33pm, Jake Norwood wrote:
RE: Last ones I promise
Valamir wrote: You're almost right. By the time jousting reached the hieght of its pageantry, full plate had completely (or very nearly so) disappeared from the battlefield. Thus the ONLY suits of plate being designed at that time were designed specifically for the needs of the tourney
These were indeed much heavier and designed in ways that no sane person would ever try to use on the battle field.
If there was a time where specialized tourney platemail was being designed simultaneously with widespread battle field use armor it must have been very brief.
I went and tried to get some more hard facts on this one (hard being a relative term when dealing with history). The heighth of armor-in-battle (the late 1400s to the early 1500s) was also a big time for jousting (Dr. Anglo cites 1467--a busy year for HEMA in general). I then went through several of my older armor books (still from the last 10 years, though), and found that most of the really impressive tournament armor was from 1550 or thereabouts. I believe--but don't have concrete stuff at hand--that 1550 was still a strong year for armor on the battlefield, although admittedly down from the late 1400s, we're still talking full harness.
On the other hand, Dr. Anglo cites French texts in saying that in 1446 French knights were expected to have separate equipment, including armor, "both for war and joust."
So as far as I can tell there was about 100-150 years of solid overlap, possibly much more. Looking at the whole cross-section of history this is a small slice, but then again Weyrth is set at 1467-ish earth years (that's also the year of Talhoffer's manual's third known printing, which is the prettiest IMO).
Hope that helps--and thanks for making me hit the books!
Jake
On 8/5/2002 at 10:43pm, Valamir wrote:
RE: Last ones I promise
Great info. Thats largely in line with what I'd remembered...just a lot longer span of time. I would have said no more than 10-20 years of strong overlap, but seemingly it was, in fact, not only much longer than that, but also square in the pseudo historical period of Wyeth...good stuff.
On 8/5/2002 at 10:52pm, Sneaky Git wrote:
RE: Last ones I promise
Jake Norwood wrote: On the other hand, Dr. Anglo cites French texts in saying that in 1446 French knights were expected to have separate equipment, including armor, "both for war and joust."
So, from a strictly "rules lawyer" p.o.v., would it be appropriate to assume that jousting-specific armor would have a higher protective value.. at the cost of increased CP penalties? Or is this getting a little too specific?
On 8/5/2002 at 10:59pm, Mokkurkalfe wrote:
RE: Last ones I promise
I would guess so, since the horrendous armor wheights(35-50 kg) one hears about from time to time refers to jousting armor.
The penalties should be very steep, since you're only supposed to sit in a saddle and aim in those things, and therefore they aren't made for anything else.
My guess(full suit):
AV: 8-10
CP: -8 or so
On 8/6/2002 at 1:08am, Valamir wrote:
RE: Last ones I promise
I don't know how the jousting rules for the Beast book are written, but if I were to write a set, I'd start with a base level of dice that all jousters get just for following the rules. i.e. you know that the opponent isn't going for your horse, you know he isn't going to dodge, you know there aren't any of his buddies backing him up, its pretty strait forward.
If I were to guestimate (not actually haveing jousted myself obviously) I'd say that at its hieght as a sport (less true of its more rough and tumble beginnings) Jousting was 1 part form, 1 part skill, 1 part nerve, and 1-2 parts equipment and horse quality.
Thus, I'd set out a combat pool something like 6-8 dice for free for all jousters just as a result of the rigid format making striking the opponent an easy task. 2-4 more for a good horse, plus dice from skill, less a horrendous penelty for the armor CP. I'd also use the horses strength value for damage since a couched lance isn't so much wielded as braced.
What you'd wind up with is a CP for jousting of about typical RoS size, but if you took the tourney armor out of the tourney where the horrendous penelties were not offset by a bonus for format you'd be in rather dire straights.
Further if I were to do Jousting proficiencies, about the only "techniques" I could think of would be targeting the head instead of torso (presumeably a harder attack more likely to unbalance and unseat an opponent) and perhaps a defensive proficiency geared towards keeping ones seat. Very possibly another riding related proficiency geared towards inflicting a stronger blow by the way the knight was braced or rose up in the saddle or some such thing.
On 8/6/2002 at 2:11am, Brian Leybourne wrote:
RE: Last ones I promise
Valamir wrote: I don't know how the jousting rules for the Beast book are written
Really briefly...
* There's a CP bonus depending on the quality of the mount.
* There's a ride check to control the horse and maneuver into the best charge, this is contested so the best rider gets the difference between his check and his opponents check as a CP bonus.
* Dice are split between attack and block just like a sim block/strike maneuver
* knockdown rolls are made to not be knocked from the mount, adjusted by opponents attacking successes. Damage will usually not happen because of heavy armors (but if you want to joust in light armour and risk being badly hurt, go ahead).
* whoever stays on his horse and unseats his opponent probably wins. If both are knocked off, it may fall to melee or they may joust again, depending on local region rules.
That's it really briefly and in a nutshell,
Brian.
On 8/6/2002 at 2:21am, Sneaky Git wrote:
RE: Last ones I promise
BrianL wrote: Really briefly...
* There's a CP bonus depending on the quality of the mount.
* There's a ride check to control the horse and maneuver into the best charge, this is contested so the best rider gets the difference between his check and his opponents check as a CP bonus.
* Dice are split between attack and block just like a sim block/strike maneuver
* knockdown rolls are made to not be knocked from the mount, adjusted by opponents attacking successes. Damage will usually not happen because of heavy armors (but if you want to joust in light armour and risk being badly hurt, go ahead).
* whoever stays on his horse and unseats his opponent probably wins. If both are knocked off, it may fall to melee or they may joust again, depending on local region rules.
That's it really briefly and in a nutshell,
Brian.
Cool!