So, I was talking to a couple of folks at Forge Midwest about something I'm going to be doing in my D&D game- the party is going to the world's middle-east analogue, and I want to put a spin on the local culture.  I want to have the in-game subcultures of the area divided amongst religious lines, and based loosely on real-world cultures of the area.  I have some ideas, but I am looking for help filling in the gaps.

If you aren't familiar with the current edition's cosmology, there's the real world, and the gods live in the Astral plane.  They are real, but distant beings, who imbue their followers with holy energy, and then typically take a hands off approach.  There's a whole bunch of them; everyone believes in the existence of all of them, but typically worships one particularly and says prayers to others as appropriate.  Individual temples usually are enshrined to a set of three primary gods- though which gods out of the pantheon (there's about a dozen) are primary varies from place to place.

So, my thought is in the south to turn this upside down- everyone worships and believes in the same gods, but you have strident followers of one god.  Temples to more than one god are nonexistent.  Stress and conflict between the faiths is common.

(Sidethought- I am deeply torn on whether the different Good faiths should wage outright war against each other.  On the one hand, it's good for conflict and fits with the idea of the setting, on the other hand, I have a lot of trouble reconciling generations old-war between the followers of say, Pelor and Bahamut.  If nothing else, eventually the gods will just stop imbuing new paladins.)

Right now I'm brainstorming ideas for different religious cultures and how to apply them.

Ioun, the goddess of knowledge is known as the Veiled Lady.  Her followers conceal their features out of modesty and secrecy.  Women wear burkhas, men wear white robes.  Popular amongst Tieflings for reasons of redemption for sins of their ancestors.  (Burkha wearing tiefling assassins- what's not to like?)

Moradin, the Great Father- as the craft god, creator of the world, I'm naturally drawn to compare his faith to Judaism.  Of course, as the patron of the Dwarves, the comparison is not necessarily a favorable one.  If I go that route, it's probably important to have a significant non-dwarven population worship Moradin- Dragonborn are a nice choice (Dragonborn merchants and artisans in yarmulkes?)

Raven Queen, the Goddess of Death- I'm picturing black robes and wide brim hats- kind of an Amish look, which is completely the wrong region, but I can't get it out of my head.

Bahamut, the Exalted Dragon- the God of War, Justice, etc.  So here's the god of the crusaders & jihaddists.  I'm picturing a lot of dervishes- turbans, scimitars, armor, horses, riding around, fighting evil.

Melora, the goddess of nature and oceans can stand in as the River Goddess.

Pelor, the sun god, strikes me as the most likely to stand in for a Christian analogue, but I don't know what to do with that.

Erathis, the goddess of civilization, seems like the closest to 'traditional' Muslim values- civilization, scholarship, code of laws.  Not sure what to do with that.

So, there's a couple of bare ideas needing a touch of help to be fleshed out.

Wouldn't black clothes and wide-brimmed hats go for orthodox Judaism as well? You could have two Judaism-like sects, one for Moradin and one for the Raven Queen. Perhaps the locals believe that the two used to be married, but got a divorse and now the two cults, while still close, disagree on who's fault it was. So it's sort of like the same religion, but not really.

You should fit Bahá'í in there somewhere. Maybe the cult of Erathis could be all about this idea of progressive revelation and divine chronology, with Erathis the youngest god and thus the most pertinent one for our times.

Why do they fight? Just cause, like, it's setting?

Not out of lack of resources, common deseases, burning conditions and broken childhoods that make what would otherwise be more peaceful mean seek blood?

Are  you looking at today's religious melting pot or are you willing to go back a ways through the religious history of the area.

If you choose to look at the historical record, you can easily place many, if not all, of the D&D deities into their own places.

Also look at the religious hierarchies of the region: Judaism brought Christianity which in turn brought Islam (Muslim is not the religion, it's a follower of Islam...Muslim means "one who submits" [to Allah]). All three are monotheistic (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_Middle_East).

Older still are the polytheistic pantheons such as Egyptian, Mesopotamian, Assyrian, Arabian Polytheism, Canaanite...etc. (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Semitic_religion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egyptian_religion and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesopotamian_mythology)

In any case, there are still people who worship the old gods from polytheistic pantheons today. They're considered cults, but still have a possible validity in your reimaging.

Eero, I am so using that for Moradin/Raven Queen.  Especially since my northerners will be like "they were married, wtf?"  Then they'll dig a little deeper, and will find out it's true.

That Bahai thing is interesting- as it happens, the youngest god is actually either the Raven Queen or Vecna; I shudder to think what that means if they are the most relevant for the times.

Callan, that's the question I really want to answer.  I want a good reason for these faiths, which should be cosmically allied, to be in extended conflict.  Limited resources is probably the best possible reason- when the bad guy gods are particularly aggressive, the various faiths band together, but otherwise they snipe and war for the same cities and strategic points.

Curt, I'm aiming at today's "religious melting pot".  (I'd personally use the term 'clusterfuck' instead.)

Willow wrote: Callan, that's the question I really want to answer.  I want a good reason for these faiths, which should be cosmically allied, to be in extended conflict.

Why not treat the different religions and their respective pantheons as countries that are expanding, contracting, etc. with their followers and the reason they and their followers fight is due to invasion? I mean, if the gods of Olympus sent their followers into Egypt to convert them, you could simulate this through the normal means (missionaries, crusades, etc.) and through the gods fighting it out.

The interesting thing is that cosmic, objective good actually exists in the setting- some wicked people will certainly call themselves "good"- but, objectively, they aren't.  Whereas the gods, who actually imbue people with magic powers are truely, absolutely, really good. 

So what I think I'm going to go with is a large city, where the various faiths all reside, but are in constant tension (limited resources, space, prestige).

Some more thoughts-

Kord, the god of strength, is known as the Heavenly Fist.  His followers, the Consecrated Fists, are not an ethnic group, but rather converts from other groups that adhere to strict vows- most obviously allowing their hair to grow long and ungroomed, and well displayed (both in men and women.)  This is popular amongst half-orcs and shifters, who have both innate strength and lots of body hair.

Melora, the River of Life, is particularly worshiped amongst halflings, who are a nomadic people, frequently tending boats that go up and down the Great River, or seeking out oasises in the desert wastes.

Willow wrote: The interesting thing is that cosmic, objective good actually exists in the setting- some wicked people will certainly call themselves "good"- but, objectively, they aren't.  Whereas the gods, who actually imbue people with magic powers are truely, absolutely, really good.

Short answer, Callan: That's not what my D&D games are about.

Also, the 'Unaligned' alignment exists for people who are morally ambiguous.  Erathis, the goddess of civilization is Unaligned.  Bahamut, God of Justice?  Lawful Good.  It's right there in the rules.

That's not something anyone can do with rules! It's like trying to have rules that say 'Chicken Vindaloo - TASTY' then saying "it's right there in the rules" when other people at the table say chicken vindaloos taste horrible. 'Bahamut - GOOD'? Same thing. Granted though, everyone can force it that all their characters like chicken vindaloo.

Enough of that from me - only saying this because trying to say something is 'good' because of the rules, to me, is like folding an elbow backwards. It's entirely possible to do - but I don't think the human mind naturally folds that way, so to speak.

Let's get some bad guy gods up on the board!

Since Ioun's Burkha clad ladies = ninja assassins for great justice, and Ioun hates Vecna...

Vecna is known as the Old Man of the Mountain.  His secret cabals infiltrate other organizations to steal their secrets, pass them onto their dark lord, and destroy the originals.  Many of his followers, like Ioun, follow the Avenger class, and wear clothing to hide their features, but it is not out of sexual modesty.  Rather, many of them are intentionally disfigured to gain mystic power from their god.

Hi Willow,

I would like to participate in the thead, but I'm having trouble seeing how. You seem to be well embarked on fitting various D&D cosmological entities into place, or assigning them colorful tropes based on that region, and that's great.

If you want the fictional material to reflect real-world history and characterizations of the various religions, then I can help with that, pretty extensively. But if it's a matter of making sure the D&D material is intact when translated into these terms, then I'm not sure what I can directly do, and in that case I'd rather provide answers or views on specific questions that you have.

If I'm reading correctly, you're doing the latter. Therefore, can you formulate more specific questions about what you'd like to know or use? Here are some possibilities that you may or may not find interesting, too (and assuming you're more-or-less focusing on ~1000 CE, just before the Crusades; let me know if that's not right).

Sunni / Shia in Islam
Rome-based Christianity vs. Nova Roma-based Christianity (the latter is known in the west as Byzantium), whose final split was in 1054
Earlier but very prevalent Christianity answering to neither center of power
Jewish life in (or "under") Christian rule vs. Muslim rule

Best, Ron

P.S. A very cool and useful link: Maps of War: Imperial History of the Middle East.

Hey Ron-

My extent of knowledge of Middle Eastern culture is essentially limited to having watched Disney's Aladdin as a child.  (And reading the Baroque Cycle as an adult.)  What I'm really looking for is knowledge of regional subcultures, modern or historic, that can be layered over with D&D trappings, with varying degrees of fidelity to actual culture.

(My standards for fidelity are pretty low- the Europeanish folks in my game ride drakes around, and everyone speaks the same language.)

Like check out the Melora worshipers- river tenders and wanderers in a harsh and dry land.  What might those people dress like?  What might differentiate them from the other folks in this land?  That's the sort of question I need answers, or at least suggestions for.

As already noted, I looks like you're trying to fit the D&D cosmology to a "real world"

I got some tips about this, I tried roughly the same in 2001. My advise is to either to create a
fairly realistic world or scenario or go for the D&D stuff. If you want to build a middle east influenced scenario,
first of all which time and how mythological or supernatural should it be. Then read books or Wikipedia, browse on the history of old religions, empires and culture. Personally I think the pre islamic era is more interesting, the Sassanide empire, Zoroastrianism and old religions where Baahl was a town god and not a devil.

The other way to go is just to take what influences you already got and mix it up with the D&D core stuff. Don't think to much about if the monsters match the scenario and so on, It's just a "color" of the game. Then focus on the "look and feel". I guess that two factors are important: Who are your players, and what do they expect and want, and the other factor is what makes you happy ;)

A personal opinion on the D&D cosmology is that it's very crude and very American. It has many built in assumptions like "alignments" that there are absolute points of good and evil. It has as noted above a default setup of gods that are very western christian and roman. Specially the "new" D&D from Wizards of the coast got this as default, the elder AD&D I think was a bit more diverse.

The strength in using the stuff that comes with the core rules is that it's easier and and easy to point at if a player asks why =) The weakness is that it's limited.

The strength in researching and building your own cosmos is that it will probably be much more customized and might give your players something new and hopefully deeper. The weakness is that this is harder work and some one can always correct you with "that wasn't the case in the real middle east" :)

Best Regards
Sofia
(I'm from Sweden, Europe, not the Middle East =)

Sofia - welcome to the Forge! I like your thinking, but here's some clarification, insofar as I understand what's going on:

Willow is in the middle of a D&D campaign in which she's moving the events from the European-analogue standard D&D environment to a Middle-East-like area of the world. For this reason compatibility with the standard D&D cosmology is of major importance for her whole idea; the point is not to emulate real history of the region, but to take on color and ideas for setting and situation from real world history. The artistic impact will come from being faithful to the context of 4th edition D&D cosmology and presenting any original additions within that context. For this reason a loose cherry-picking approach to the real world history is better than pedantry here.

(I felt it necessary to repeat where Willow is coming from here - for some reason there's been a lot of challenge for her starting point in this thread, as we can see by rereading from the beginning. It's a pretty straight-forward topic, no need to bring in any more complex thought than D&D settings invest in depictions of medieval feudalism.)

Ron has some pretty good ideas on the different real-world situations of the region. One thing I might be interested in for a D&D twist like this would the idea of Oriental Orthodox Churches, which in your treatment might be the local Pelorian faith, a subsumed minority next to the more visible Bahamut/Erathis pairing. Perhaps the thing with Pelorians locally could be that they're weak and perhaps even a bit persecuted, but they're also not in communion with the big and powerful Pelorian cults back in not-Europe because of some stupid theological disagreement. This could end up as just color, or if you've got Pelorian characters or NPCs in the campaign, then they might have to decide what they think about these distantly related eastern Pelorians.

Hmm... I feel a summation coming on:

Perhaps the majority of the population worships Bahamut and Erathis as the male and female principles of civilization - or maybe animal and human, considering how Bahamut is not a human god. Bahamut would be the Jihad god, while Erathis is the not-Persian goddess of civility. The two could have many common myths involving dragonriding and dragonlances, and considering them politically equal could be a touchy point for the dominant culture, which is a rough amalgam of earlier not-Arab and not-Persian cultural spheres; challenging the association of the two or trying to depict one as superior to the other could be seen as having political significance. Alternatively, go full-hog into Sunni vs. Shia on it, with some polities actively subsuming one partner to the other. Could even presume that Bahamutian areas have a patrilinear inheritance, while Erathians go matrilinear - a real mess.

Meanwhile, a similar but much older cult set-up could exist among a specific ethnicity of not-Jews, worshipping Moradin and the Raven Queen (known by some given name among these people, likely) as man and wife. This would be a much smaller religious community than those following the traditions of Bahamut and Erathis - perhaps they're called the "Little Pair" in colloqual speech, even. The local understanding would be that the Little Pair is a much older and, to scholars, more credible religious tradition, with a moral priority that can get embarrassing for the now dominant new-comer "Great Pair". The similarities and differences between the two pairs of gods would presumably be an important theological topic. I guess some would even argue that Moradin and Bahamut are one and the same being.

Pelor would be a strange-seeming god in this overall set-up, for he is not paired with a female deity. Might consider adding finiteness (he was once a man) and an eschatology (one day he'll take revenge on all the bullies) if you feel like it. And as intimated above, even while Pelor is powerful in distant foreign lands, his is locally a minority religion with dubious ties to Pelorian cults in other lands (perhaps because they don't want to offend the dominant other cults of the area) and even more dubious ties to the local religious traditions; Pelorians claim that their god is the son of Moradin or father of Bahamut or other such things, but who's going to believe it?

Melorans are definitely local pre-duotheism (that's what those god-goddess pairings amount to, even if everybody's technically polytheistic and considers gods outside their own cult real) pagans. They remember the time when the land was not a sandy desert, but rather green with grasses and forests, the time before civilization and over-grazing. This Paradise, as they call it, is still to be seen on the banks of the Great Rivers, a handful of streams around which much of the population base is centered. Melora, they believe, is the most important of the deities because it is her riverine presence that sustains the world and the natural spirits which they also revere. Oasiss are also her thing, and usually have a shrine to her.

Ioun can have that Bahá'í schtic, perhaps - and Sikh, too. As we know, all Sikh have the same name, and they do crazy martial arts, and they believe in the teachings of successive gurus. Sounds like the god of knowledge to me, especially combined with the idea that the Iounnite revelation has not been completed yet - they're still waiting for a couple of gurus to show up and complete the teachings. Perhaps they don't even consider Ioun a god proper, but rather use the name for the combined total of divine revelation, of which the mythologies of other cults are a minor part. So an Iounnite might actually be Bahamut-worshipper or Moradin-worshipper, he just wouldn't do too much of that in practice because he has this other body of knowledge that says that he doesn't have to worship. Like a combination of Gnostic and Dervish relationships to the main faiths of Christianity and Islam.

The evil gods like Vecna and such should have plenty of room in the demonology. I'd probably pick Vecna as the Satan-equivalent just because he's cooler than the rest of the bunch. So he was the advisor to Moradin, betrayed Bahamut and killed (or perhaps seduced) Pelor in his human form, depending on who you ask. Eevil deevil.

Hmm... probably too clean, laid out like that. In practice people would of course know fuck-all about what their cults actually teach, and of course most of the cults most of the time would be open to worship at multiple temples - after all, all the good gods are all super-friends with each other, right? Better that they worship the old and frail Moradin than Vecna, amirite?

Possibly, helpful, D&D 4E holidays:

http://forum2.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=436692

Eero, you keep coming up with awesome coolness!  If only I had read that insight a week ago.

Anyway, here's the writeup I ended up coming up with:

A Guide to the House of Peace

The House of Peace is a land of civilization, of glorious sights, and wondrous vistas.  The land is a harsh mistress, but the people are wise, faithful, and beautiful.  It is a land of thousands of years of history.

Currently the House of Peace is divided into a number of kingdoms, the largest of which is the Caliphate.  These kingdoms are loose alliances of various city states, points of light in a hostile land filled with desert raiders, strange monsters, and vengeful devils and djinns.

The Old Kingdom

A millennium ago, the House of Peace was united under the Old Kingdom.  The King was wise and just, and his people prospered.  Treachery, disaster, and warfare brought the Old Kingdom down, but its people, most notably Dwarves, Eladrin, and Dragonborn, continue to practice their faith, and believe that one day the Old Kingdom will be restored.

The Caliphate

Almost half the House of Peace is united under the rule of the Caliphate, a vast empire ruled by Caliph Bethel, a Priestess-Empress who utterly dominates the kingdom, and is considered an honorary Exarch of the gods of the Caliphate.

Jalalabad

Almost at the center of the House of Peace is the city of Jalalabad, an ancient city and center of trade.  It is set almost on the source of the Tiger river, which flows from the Perilous Moon Mountains.  Defensible but a key trade location, Jalalabad was the center of a successful kingdom, but was on the wane.  The vizier Musafir bin Tafrin, a corrupt and feared man, recently used his wizardry might to drive back the armies of the Caliph, but there's no telling when they will return.

Faiths of the House of Peace

A common belief is that the true names of heavenly figures are divine, and not to be spoken aloud by mortal lips.  Thus, when referring to gods, southerners will use euphemisms or titles.  If they do use the true name of their god, it is a foul oath- considered blasphemy by many.

Gods of the Old Kingdom

The Old Kingdom worshiped a pantheon of gods symbolizing peace and prosperity:  The High-Father (Moradin), his wife, the Raven Queen, his brother, the Celestial Cultivator (Corellon), and her parents, the Immutable Sun (Pelor), and the Heavenly Mother (Erathis).

According to legend, the Raven Queen and the High-Father separated, ending their heavenly marriage.  Whose fault is to blame varies from story to story.  Dwarves tend to take the side of the Raven Queen, Dragonborn the High Father.  The faith is also popular with Eladrin, to tend to worship the secondary deities of the Celestial Cultivator and the Immutable Sun.

Gods of the Caliphate

The faith of the Caliphate exalts a pantheon of five gods united to bring the whole of the world under the sway of the Caliph: the Heavenly Mother and Supernal Sovereign (Erathis), the Most Merciful and Exalted Dragon (Bahamut), the Unstoppable Sword (Bane), the Veiled Lady (Ioun), and the River of Life (Melora).  Tieflings often follow the ascetic practices of the Veiled Lady, and Genasi commonly are found as civilized worshipers of the River of Life.  While few, many Deva believe in the goals of the Caliphate, and align themselves with the Exalted Dragon or the Supernal Sovereign.

Nomad Wanderers

Above all else, nomad wanderers (especially halflings) pray to the River of Life (Melora), for she grants them life, and the uncanny ability to find oasis and wells in the desert.  But they also follow the three fates:  the Fickle Fate (Avandra), the Lover's Fate (Sehanine), the Veiled Fate (Ioun), and the Final Fate (Raven Queen).  Elves tend to follow the path of the wanderer.

Other Gods

Followers of the Heavenly Fist (Kord) seek to emulate their patron- growing their hair long, forgoing most worldly possessions, and striving for personal physical perfection.  They are a rare sort, but the path is often led by Half-Orcs and Shifters, who while rare, have the natural strength and propensity for body hair.

The Fivefold Dragon (Tiamat) is often secretly worshiped by wealthy merchants, of the Old Kingdom's faith or the Caliphate alike.

Kali-Ra (Lloth) is idolized as a dark skinned, six-armed woman, who directs her cultists to infiltrate and subvert civilized society.  As she has no known epithet, her followers are often simply referred to by outsiders as 'shadow cultists.'

The King that Crawls (Torog) has the same reputation as in the north- the chained god of the Underdark.  Worship of him is acceptable in the Caliphate, but only in the proper context, and to appease him.

The Old Man of the Mountain (Vecna) commands a hidden cabal of assassins, constantly at odds with the followers of Ioun.

Old One Eye (Gruumsh) commands hordes of orcs and other ravaging humanoids that threaten the cities of the South.  His followers hold no qualms about speaking his name.

The Prince of Lies (Asmodeous) is feared, but he has recently gained dominion over the city-state of Jalalabad.

The Supernal Serpent (Zehir) is the source of many cults, ranging far and wide, many originating with patrons in Meztequa, where his worship is legal and enforced.

There was a strong vibe of "strange land, yet oddly similar to our own."  Such as when their guide, Mobutu bin Ubuntu, the halfling scout described the land as "too many people with too few resources, clustered into the city states, beautiful gems, like Points of Light in a harsh wilderness."  (To which the Drow quipped "sounds just like the Underdark.")