Topic: Which one's best?
Started by: Mokkurkalfe
Started on: 8/8/2002
Board: The Riddle of Steel
On 8/8/2002 at 9:04am, Mokkurkalfe wrote:
Which one's best?
ST and TO(big brute)
or
AG and WIT(quick guy)?
The main(combat) reason for AG is the Reflex, and thus WIT is equally important. But for an increase of one CP-die you have to raise two attributes. OTOH, if I raise ST and TO by one I get one "automatic defence success" and one "automatic attack success"(if I hit that is).
I'm asking cuz' a player made a Diablo-style barbarian with both high ST and TO, and he just mows trough any quick, agile foe I make.
Is it better to be a big brute that can ignore smaller attacks and only needs a small attack himself to kill or maim, or is the quick guy better with his higher ability to buy initiative, making Stop-shorts and more maneuvers?
On 8/8/2002 at 1:20pm, Wolfen wrote:
RE: Which one's best?
I'm asking cuz' a player made a Diablo-style barbarian with both high ST and TO, and he just mows trough any quick, agile foe I make.
No offense, but chances are, you're not playing your agile characters right. Keep in mind that when they're facing the brute, getting hit is what will do them in. Use their agility to avoid that. Also, if you feel the risk is worthwhile, a red-red engagement can be won by the quicker opponent, and also keep in mind the bonus die given to thrusting attacks. If you opt for this though, you have to drop him in one attack, so make sure it counts. Aim for locations with static Shock and Pain results, rather than those modified by WP (ie 7-WP) For example, Cutting, Shin and lower leg (Zone I) has a static Shock of 3 at the damage level 1. Zone IV, Cutting is also a good bet, because at level 1, you've got the option of Shock 2, 4, or 3 respectively in locations 3, 4 and 6. A cut to the groin is also a killer, due to massive shock, pain and bleeding. Ouch.
For the most part, a lighter combatant -vs- a bruiser cannot expect to get the one-shot kills unless the bruiser over-commits and leaves himself open. Play them conservatively, to wound in the most effective way possible, and wear down the bruiser. Eventually the bruiser will be so fragged that you'll be able to kill them with a coup-de-gras, not even rolling the dice.
On 8/8/2002 at 3:20pm, Mokkurkalfe wrote:
RE: Which one's best?
This is the reason that I'm asking the last question.
Granted, as bandit NPC's, I didn't want them to be elite fighters, so I played them a little "clumsily" on purpose.
The problem here is mostly that the strong guy can completely ignore smaller attacks, and thus, a quick guy cannot overcommit.
Example:
Brute
ST 6
TO 6
Everything else 4
Quickie
AG 6
WIT 6
Everything else 4
Both has a short sword and small shield with a profiency of 6, giving Brute 10 dice and Quickie 12 dice.
Assume that Quicke relies on his speed and attacks with 8 dice.
Brute knows that he will probably lose in a red/red engagement, so he defends. He blocks with 8 dice.
Brute barely succeeds with this block and Quicke keeps initiative and thrusts with his remaining 4 dice against Brute's groin. Brute attacks too, he thrusts at Quickies groin as well.
Assuming that both succeeds with 50% of their dice, it will look like this:
Quickie:
(2+0+4) - 6 = 0
(dice+weapon+ST) - TO = Damage level
Brute:
(1+0+6) - 4 = 3
The point, I think, is that for every Reflex die I get, I could instead make a more brutish guy that
a) automatically "nullifies" one attack die(TO is one step higher)
a) automatically "nullifies" one defence die(ST is one step higher)
Now I wonder, is this in the end countered by Quickie's advantages in red/red engagements* and initiative-stealing capabilities?
Or, formulated differently, would Quicke beat Brute or vice versa if both played on their strengths and their opponents weaknesses?
*The sim block&strike maneuver lessens the importance if Reflex in a red/red engagement anyway...
On 8/8/2002 at 4:16pm, Lyrax wrote:
RE: Which one's best?
Remember, though, that Strength only comes into play if the attack goes through. Same idea with toughness. CP not only can be used for either attack or defense, but also "resolves" before ST or TO even have a chance.
On 8/8/2002 at 4:36pm, Durgil wrote:
RE: Which one's best?
Wow, what an excellant post! I hope this is the kind of stuff that we'll see in that TRoS Compendium that was being discussed on a different post. I have so much to learn about this game.
On 8/8/2002 at 7:10pm, Mokkurkalfe wrote:
RE: Which one's best?
Yeah, this was the kind of stuff I thought about when I wrote the post about the compendium(or whatever)
Remember, though, that Strength only comes into play if the attack goes through. Same idea with toughness. CP not only can be used for either attack or defense, but also "resolves" before ST or TO even have a chance.
True, true. But still, for every one CP, you get one ST and TO. Of course, I'm counting the reflex dice only, since both guys can have high profencies.
In the end, I think it boils down to which one is capable of using his strengths(whether physical strength or speed).
On 8/8/2002 at 10:59pm, Bob Richter wrote:
Re: Which one's best?
Mokkurkalfe wrote: ST and TO(big brute)
or
AG and WIT(quick guy)?
The main(combat) reason for AG is the Reflex, and thus WIT is equally important. But for an increase of one CP-die you have to raise two attributes. OTOH, if I raise ST and TO by one I get one "automatic defence success" and one "automatic attack success"(if I hit that is).
I'm asking cuz' a player made a Diablo-style barbarian with both high ST and TO, and he just mows trough any quick, agile foe I make.
Is it better to be a big brute that can ignore smaller attacks and only needs a small attack himself to kill or maim, or is the quick guy better with his higher ability to buy initiative, making Stop-shorts and more maneuvers?
ST and TO are fairly well over-rated in the game, but they're useless without a good Combat Pool.
Try making your fighters a balance of strong/tough and agile/quick.
Say, instead of having 2 6s and 2 4s, a more balanced fighter would have 4 5s.
On 8/9/2002 at 12:12pm, Jaif wrote:
RE: Which one's best?
- Try attacking with 10-11 dice. You're still saving 1-2 for next round.
- Give the light guy a saber and start slashing arms and the lower legs.
- Start using the beat manuever.
-Jeff
On 8/9/2002 at 1:42pm, Mokkurkalfe wrote:
RE: Which one's best?
Jaif wrote: - Try attacking with 10-11 dice. You're still saving 1-2 for next round.
- Give the light guy a saber and start slashing arms and the lower legs.
- Start using the beat manuever.
-Jeff
The "problem" is, that if Brute should somehow manage to parry that first blow, he can completely ignore the next attack and go all-out himself.
What you said about saber is interesting I think. Basically, the heavier the weaponry, the less the importance of strength(hmm, seems counter-inituitive). With heavy stuff, nobody(neither Quicke nor Brute) can ignore a hit, as opposed to a fist-fight, where the stronger guy *will* win, unless heavily outdiced.
On 8/9/2002 at 1:53pm, Wolfen wrote:
RE: Which one's best?
Y'know, that is a point. Everyone thinks of the brutes using the big weapons, but assuming at least an average strength, good manual dexterity and skill with the weapon, a heavy weapon (such as the greatsword, or in my case, two-handed bastard sword) in the hands of a light, quick character can be quite devastating. The only problem that the lighter character should run into is that he might get fatigued a bit quicker than someone who can sling such a weapon around casually without requiring a lot of effort. The CP to use it and the weapon's power would be a nasty, nasty combination, able to take down opponents before fatigue becomes much of an issue.
On 8/9/2002 at 2:57pm, Mokkurkalfe wrote:
RE: Which one's best?
A friend of mine realized this as well when his character(ST 4) changed from short sword to longsword.
Which brings up another point, namely ST requirements for different weapons, similar to effective strength for bows. What about ST 5 or 6 for the biggest one's(Doppelhander, Warflail, Longbow), ST 4 for most medium and long weapons, and 3 for smaller ones.
And perhaps also +X on ATN and DTN, where X is the difference between a characters ST and the weapon's ST requirement. This would of course have no effect if the character is stronger than the required ST.
On 8/9/2002 at 3:57pm, Jaif wrote:
RE: Which one's best?
The "problem" is, that if Brute should somehow manage to parry that first blow, he can completely ignore the next attack and go all-out himself.
The brute wins in the scenario you painted before. In mine, the quick guy might win.
Again, you are ignoring the beat. If you win the beat, your opponent loses dice, preventing him from doing squat with that great strength of his.
RE: Sabre. The sabre is not a 'brute' weapon. It only weighs a bit more than a short sword. Frankly, the short sword is more brutish: it's a compact, sturdy hunk of metal used to punch holes in the thing in front of you. The reason I picked the sabre is that you can slice open areas like an arm or leg, either getting some blood loss going, or getting a few more shock dice in there.
Finally, I think the idea that a strong, tough guy wins out over a quick guy who slugs it out is quite reasonable. The quick guy should be taking the defensive and exploiting situations, or should try fancy manuevers.
-Jeff
Question for Jake: I had been assuming that a successful beat rendered the target weapon/shield useless the next round. However, the wording says 'defense', so presumably I could beat someone's sword aside, yet they could still stab me with it next exchange. Frankly, I think the reverse is more likely true - if I beat someone's sword aside, they may parry with it, but there's no way they're going to launch an attack with it. Bottom line: was the word 'defense' intentional? That is, if I beat a guys weapon aside, can they still stab me with it next round?
On 8/9/2002 at 4:44pm, Mokkurkalfe wrote:
RE: Which one's best?
Jaif wrote:The "problem" is, that if Brute should somehow manage to parry that first blow, he can completely ignore the next attack and go all-out himself.
The brute wins in the scenario you painted before. In mine, the quick guy might win.
Again, you are ignoring the beat. If you win the beat, your opponent loses dice, preventing him from doing squat with that great strength of his.
Again, what you says shows that it's more about who can exploit his ST or Reflex rather than one attribute being superior over the other.
The quick guy should use high-damage weapons, and preferrably long as well, to steal even more dice. The brutish guy should concentrate on stuff with lower TN's and a good shield.
The beat is good since the modification, I know that. Really good. But it still stands; *Should* Brute somehow manage to parry, he can ignore the next attack.
It seems that in a Brute vs. Quickie battle, Quickie will win if he plays his cards right. One mistake though, and *splat*.
Brute OTOH, can take more punishment, and must try to bait Quickie into a position where he(Brute) can get just one die in MoS.
Does that sound sensible?
On 8/12/2002 at 4:53pm, Jake Norwood wrote:
RE: Which one's best?
Mokkurkalfe wrote: A friend of mine realized this as well when his character(ST 4) changed from short sword to longsword.
Which brings up another point, namely ST requirements for different weapons, similar to effective strength for bows. What about ST 5 or 6 for the biggest one's(Doppelhander, Warflail, Longbow), ST 4 for most medium and long weapons, and 3 for smaller ones.
And perhaps also +X on ATN and DTN, where X is the difference between a characters ST and the weapon's ST requirement. This would of course have no effect if the character is stronger than the required ST.
I've seen a 4'11" tall girl weighing about 110 lbs use a greatsword with perfect efficiency. The weapons are not heavy nor unwieldy, and anyone with a ST of 4 should be able to handle any weapon, except perhaps the warflail and the maul.
Oh, and hey there. I'm back.
Jaif wrote: Question for Jake: I had been assuming that a successful beat rendered the target weapon/shield useless the next round. However, the wording says 'defense', so presumably I could beat someone's sword aside, yet they could still stab me with it next exchange. Frankly, I think the reverse is more likely true - if I beat someone's sword aside, they may parry with it, but there's no way they're going to launch an attack with it. Bottom line: was the word 'defense' intentional? That is, if I beat a guys weapon aside, can they still stab me with it next round?
My first impression is that you're right at the beginning: that a beat renders a weapon usless. But then I thought about it, and cutting weapons, at least, can actually "ride" with the beat and still come in for an attack, albeit one with a disadvantage (represented by the loss of CP from a successful beat). That's only if they steal initiative, though, as a successful beat gives the next exchange to the attacker.
Jake
On 8/12/2002 at 5:14pm, Jaif wrote:
RE: Which one's best?
Thanks for the response. One more question then...
Assume in the situation in question I beat the person's *shield* aside successfully. To me, that means next round the defender could not announce a 'simultaneous block & strike', because their shield can't be used to block.
Do I have that right?
-Jeff
On 8/12/2002 at 5:25pm, Mike Holmes wrote:
RE: Which one's best?
One thing that's been overlooked here is the armor available/used by both fighters. Assuming no armor, I'll definitiely give the advantage to the quick guy. Assuming armor, I'll give the advantage to the big guy.
Mike