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Topic: Generalizing the Ars Magica Covenant
Started by: JeffSheets
Started on: 6/18/2010
Board: First Thoughts


On 6/18/2010 at 12:08am, JeffSheets wrote:
Generalizing the Ars Magica Covenant

I'm designing a general gamist/narrativist game system, which will probably not be in any way (IMO) innovative. However, besides the goal of making every aspect of the game simple and quick to GM and play, I also want to increase the cohesion of the player characters as a "Troupe".

Ars Magica does this well, I think, in the way that it handles the Covenant, the spot where medieval mages live together in the Ars Magica setting, providing not just the defining setting of the campaign, but also providing the resources, allies, enemies, history, and other similar details that actually have a mechanical effect on the game itself. Covenants in Ars Magica are supposed to be decided on and created by the players themselves, almost like a metaphorical character. I want to capitalize on this technique of bringing the players and their characters together in much the same way, and I'm fairly certain of how I'm going to go about it.

However... I would love to know if any other games out there do something similar, and provide a better reason for gamists to play than: "Hey, Bob, I hear the kobolds have kidnapped a chick and looted the local bank vault... Wanna go kick some lizard butt?" Specifically, I'm looking for games that have mechanics for it, rather than just a Jedi hand wave telling you that Characters should have a motivation to stick together and help each other. Anybody know of games that make use of this besides Ars Magica?  I'm thinking maybe my old copy of Champions/Hero System does with its Base concept... but characters have to pay resources to have it, so it's not a given that the players will/should make use of it. I suppose D&D 3.5 does it with the concept of organizations and Contact feats... but again, it's not a requirement to play, and can be completely ignored without losing much if anything. Then again... my knowledge of interesting RPGs is not all that vast.  =/

Note: No offense is intended to any hack'n'slashers by the above comments.  Please don't track me down, cut me into pieces and run off with my loot.  ;)

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On 6/18/2010 at 12:25am, PeterBB wrote:
Re: Generalizing the Ars Magica Covenant

A big part of InSpectres is creating and managing your franchise.

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On 6/18/2010 at 12:37am, Vulpinoid wrote:
RE: Re: Generalizing the Ars Magica Covenant

It's probably not in the same direction you were thinking, but I tried to tackle some stuff along these lines in my recent project "Bunraku Nights".

Some details can be found here.

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On 6/18/2010 at 12:55am, JeffSheets wrote:
RE: Re: Generalizing the Ars Magica Covenant

PeterBB wrote:
A big part of InSpectres is creating and managing your franchise.


Thanks!  Exactly the kind of research I was looking for. Anybody else have more?  I saw a review for InSpectres which brought up a game called Con X in reference to the Covenant/Franchise idea... anybody know who published/authored it?

Vulpinoid wrote:
It's probably not in the same direction you were thinking, but I tried to tackle some stuff along these lines in my recent project "Bunraku Nights".

Some details can be found here.


For a moment your link didn't quite work, but I've downloaded the pdf and it seems interesting. I'll have to spend more time reading it.

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On 6/18/2010 at 3:01am, JeffSheets wrote:
RE: Re: Generalizing the Ars Magica Covenant

On a related note... While reading some older threads in the Actual Play forum, I suddenly had the realization that because the Troupe as a collective is going to be treated as a metaphorical character, it deserves some rules for advancement or change that are slightly unrelated to the advancement of actual characters.

Some details about my idea for the Troupe concept:
The basic mechanic of my game is much like the d20 system, only using d10's. In addition, Attributes, the equivalent of d20's Str, Con, etc., are always recorded only as the bonus or penalty they provide. Similarly, the Troupe will have four Attributes: Property, Resources, Relations, and Obligations. Property is the Fixed Assets, so to speak, of the Troupe.  If they own a castle, they'll have a positive Property attribute. If they're nomads or vagrants and don't even have a horse drawn wagon or a winnebago then the Troupe's Property would be negative. Resources is similar but more like Current or Liquid Assets, but also including Income. A zero Resources means the Troupe is just at self-sufficiency level; they don't owe anybody, but likewise they don't have any extra source of profits beyond what the individual player characters do in a session. Resources will represent not just in-game currency, but other resources, such as magic energy, drug supplies, or whatever the troupe is focused on. Relations represents the allies and contacts that the troupe has, making political situations easier to handle, or allowing a detective agency to get leads about their current case from contacts. Having a negative Relations attribute will indicate that these things are more difficult than normal. Obligations will represent the duties that others have to the Troupe, or the duties the Troupe has to others. All Troupe attributes will also be described by the players, and this description will guide the ways that these attributes can be used in game play.

The attributes can be used during the course of a game session as a bonus to a character's roll, if the attribute relates in some way. Likewise, sometimes the penalty of a lower than normal troupe attribute will be applied by the GM when it's appropriate.

A Troupe is, however, more than just a set of four attributes. They can also acquire a certain number of Traits, which will be, along with the attributes, a source of ideas for stories. Examples of traits: Famous - the Troupe is famous for some reason, or infamous, and members are commonly recognized anywhere they go. Admirers and detractors alike are more aware of what the Troupe is like, including individual members. Enemies - The troupe has a specific set of enemies, either a single group or organization, or a collection of enemies. However, the old proverb, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend", still rings true, so on occasion a troupe can expect help from relative strangers. Sinister - The troupe is in some way sinister, evil, or unethical. This tends to get the troupe in trouble with the authorities, but allows members of the troupe to tap into the bad guy mindset to accomplish their goals.

I want traits for a Troupe to be primarily player described, and have a plus side and a downside. A troupe will have anywhere from one to four traits. The sum of the troupe attributes must not be higher than the number of traits (at troupe creation at least, advancement may change this... or not). No attribute can be higher than +2, nor can any attribute by lower than -2.

With the Troupe rules I'm aiming for a mixed narrativism/gamism feel... there should be a game to work and finesse and use by and against the players, but it should also be a major source of the focus of gameplay.  When you read this... do you feel I've hit that mark or missed?

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On 6/18/2010 at 10:14am, Nocker wrote:
RE: Re: Generalizing the Ars Magica Covenant

Conspiracy X has a nice HQ creation system. All the agents participate in giving their influence to the troupe, and all of it is used to create the HQ resources.

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On 6/19/2010 at 10:26am, contracycle wrote:
RE: Re: Generalizing the Ars Magica Covenant

Conspiracy-X was published by Eden, and subsequently by SJG.  It's cell design is both good and under-developed, at least it was in version 1, which is what I am familiar with.  It was cool to buy your guns by the crate, as it were, but there was little advice of the type you describe for covenants; they were not really active agents of play, but just a bit of backdrop for the players.  That still had value in terms of defining the resources of the play group, but more could have been done to bring them alive.

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