For those of you that aren't familiar, you HAVE to check out this site:

http://www.father-ramos.com

it has slow loading times, but is worth a visit. Particularly check out the sermons page.

We saw this at Gen Con and had a long discussion about it. I think (as do many of us now) that it's one hell of an advirtising scheme by WWGS...or white wolf game studio (or, "what would god say?"). The site is so convincing, but definitely bogus: a "555" phone number, and an address that doesn't exist (we checked mapquest).

So, brilliant, isn't it?

Check it out. It's a shame that they thought of it before Ron did.

Jake

It wouldn't surprise me if this was White Wolf - they made a similar fake web site when they put out Hunter. It's pretty fucking tasteless, though.

Shit, I'm Presbyterian. Or at least I was back when I was twelve...the last time a regularly attended church.

- Scott

Check this out:
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0046/0046_01.asp

Can we say "White Wolf: the Stealing?"

Hi everyone,

The real agony is that, having bought the ruse hook line & sinker (which I did), I actually, immediately thought, "Hey, that would be a great promo to put out one of these things as an advertising hook for Sorcerer next year!" I envisioned something that wasn't an out-and-out ruse, so much as an honest advertisement for Sorcerer that just looked like a Chick book in format only.

And then Jake said, "Hmmm, I think it's a gimmick. Look, WWGS on the front." And I said .... oog! Damn!

Best,
Ron

This is exactly why I don't buy White Wolf stuff...religion is just another pinata to take a whack at. I didn't get to make GenCon this year due to a family tragedy, but I always go out of my way to tell people like John Wick and the Fading Suns folks, that I appreciate them treating religion intelligently and maturely.

Maybe the moral of the story is that when it comes to publishing and marketing games, Christians are a demographic that don't like to be denigrated any more than anyone else.

-d

WhistlinFiend wrote: This is exactly why I don't buy White Wolf stuff...religion is just another pinata to take a whack at. I didn't get to make GenCon this year due to a family tragedy, but I always go out of my way to tell people like John Wick and the Fading Suns folks, that I appreciate them treating religion intelligently and maturely.

Maybe the moral of the story is that when it comes to publishing and marketing games, Christians are a demographic that don't like to be denigrated any more than anyone else.

-d

Just in case there is any doubt.
I opened the PDF download from the site in my new copy of Acrobat 5 and checked a few things.

The creator of the PDF is listed as Chris McDonough

Chris McDonough has done extensive work for white wolf. Check out this list
http://www.pen-paper.net/rpgdb.php?op=showcreator&creatorid=230

,Matt Gwinn

AFAIK, it's the Demon: the Fallen promo site.

Mytholder wrote: AFAIK, it's the Demon: the Fallen promo site.

Hi there,

See, this is a weird issue all 'round.

1) I agree that religion has been portrayed and treated badly in RPG texts, whether from the utility-cleric concept in D&D or from the vampire-Mormon etc stuff in the World of Darkness. (I'll give honorable mention to the priest supplement for Fading Suns, which I think is really good.)

2) I also think that Jack Chick and like-minded folks are morons. I don't even mind that they exist, they seem so trivial to me. Just for clarity, I shall emphasize that the real danger in their existence is the wimpy-ass, utterly-wrongheaded reaction of a given industry (music, comics, movies, games, etc) to kowtow to them "just in case."

So put #1 and #2 together. My reaction to the White Wolf ad is therefore not too mixed - I think it's brilliantly funny and effective, as it skewers some pretty stupid people and shows, to the consumers, some brains and balls on the part of the company. All well and good ... almost. I did say "not too mixed."

After all, in the context of the WW approach to religion in general, which I shall paraphrase as, "Cool people who wear black and smoke a lot are above all that parental, societal, narrow-minded religious dogma" - ie adolescent bullshit - then the pamphlet has a mean-spirited quality. Making fun of Chick is a lot like kicking a smaller, chubbier kid and having your friends laugh about it. Contrast it with the concept I arrived at, that I described above.

It really comes down to whether a person of a religious bent does or does not respect Jack Chick et al. "Well, at least he's acting on his faith, and that's a good thing," some might say. I consider that to be rather a leap, myself, as Chick and friends seem to me to be acting out of stupidity (faith is not stupid).

Best,
Ron

Oog. Yeah, it is a bit...tacky....

Cleverly executed, though. I particularly like the "wolf in sheep's clothing" reference, the horned Jesus, and Father Ramos's Mephistophelean look.

Seth wrote:

Cleverly executed, though. I particularly like the "wolf in sheep's clothing" reference, the horned Jesus, and Father Ramos's Mephistophelean look.

Ron Edwards wrote: It really comes down to whether a person of a religious bent does or does not respect Jack Chick et al. "Well, at least he's acting on his faith, and that's a good thing," some might say. I consider that to be rather a leap, myself, as Chick and friends seem to me to be acting out of stupidity (faith is not stupid).

I'd love to send them a copy of Paladin, or show them the Forge - my biggest successes are in role-playing, and I'd love to be able to share that with them.

My aunt is a Nazarene, and it's like this: smart woman, Ph. D. in Education, of all things, and yet she'll point out a store that sells crystals and little resin gargoyles as an "occult" front for Satan. As a left-wing, activist, green bleeding heart, progressive, teetering-socialist, commie pinko, secular humanist, ex-Californian, alcohol-drinking swine, I don't have much common ground to facilitate a meaningful debate with my aunt, though she's a great lady and we get along famously despite my heathenism.

In my experience, people believe what they want to believe when it comes to validating core internal value systems, usually translating to the easy road with the least departure from any uncomfortable weighing of values and facts using reasoned principles that don't derive automatically from authoritarian values. Though I'm phrasing it awkwardly, it means it's a fight you can't win through confrontation. For anyone to question their core values, they have to go through some kind of catalytic life experience. I could no more convince my aunt a roleplaying game isn't at least a little demonic than I could convince her to smoke thin black cigarettes and reject the triune God.

The best argument, if I may be so bold, is to live one's own life well and demonstrate that despite roleplaying, wearing black, and listening to the wrong sorts of music, you're raising good kids, holding down a job, and not squandering your earnings in crack pipes and heroin bricks (though that might indeed be a better use of your funds than the stock market these days).

Ron, I'd very much like to hear about your efforts and thoughts about teaching evolution, if you care to share them.

Best,

Blake

WhistlinFiend wrote: I always go out of my way to tell people like John Wick and the Fading Suns folks, that I appreciate them treating religion intelligently and maturely.
-d

Blake Hutchins wrote:
The best argument, if I may be so bold, is to live one's own life well and demonstrate that despite roleplaying, wearing black, and listening to the wrong sorts of music, you're raising good kids, holding down a job, and not squandering your earnings in crack pipes and heroin bricks (though that might indeed be a better use of your funds than the stock market these days).

Clinton R Nixon wrote:

Blake Hutchins wrote:
The best argument, if I may be so bold, is to live one's own life well and demonstrate that despite roleplaying, wearing black, and listening to the wrong sorts of music, you're raising good kids, holding down a job, and not squandering your earnings in crack pipes and heroin bricks (though that might indeed be a better use of your funds than the stock market these days).

Blake,

I think you've hit the nail on the head - at least it's my personal method. Instead of putting away the RPG material when my parents come to visit, I leave a few books out these days, especially the indie stuff my friends have done or I did (except Sorcerer, for obvious reasons.) I think seeing those things in the context of me living a healthy, happy life may start to bring them around.

Hello,

I really like all the posts on the thread so far. However, it seems to me as if we've settled the matter of "religion, RPGs, and myself" as far as it will go. If anyone else has more to say about that, please do, but I was thinking of returning to the issue of the WWGS pamphlet.

And ... the possibilities of the medium.

Fact #1: comics communicate like nobody's business. As Scott McCloud points out so well, the fundamental medium is utilized constantly in advertising and teaching, just not recognized as such. Fact #2: little pamphlets are a neat physical object - they get picked up, looked at, carried around, etc. Fact #3: the RPGs that the Forge is built to support, no matter what their game-preference orientation, are clear about their goals - ie, they present something that can be communicated about.

Anyone seeing where I'm going with this? Is the WWGS possibly an inspiration for something pretty cool and useful? I stress the idea of not playing a hoax but rather a straightforward comics/pamphlet ad.

Or is the fact that White Wolf did it once, and the way they did it, pretty much going to dictate that this medium/format will work once, and once only?

Best,
Ron

edited to put in a crucial "not," so as to make sense

While thinking on this, it occurs to me that WW has had their foot in this door for some time. A great many of their games have used the comic format to illustrate setting, and I wouldn't be surprised if that's exactly what this ends up being. Of course, they weren't the first to do this...

My idea for the format is to push it one step further than even advertising...to make the game itself the comic, and vice versa. In fact, that's exactly what I've been working on of late, and it's taken interesting shape since GenCon - a game steeped in the traditions of the comic medium (my original inspiration was the EC comics of the fifties, but it's gone wll beyond that now). This is neither the place nor the time to discuss the particulars of the design, but should I get it off the ground, the obvious format would be as an actual comic book of some sort.

And I already have my artist in mind...

Take care,
Scott

Jake Norwood wrote:

Mytholder wrote: AFAIK, it's the Demon: the Fallen promo site.

Exactly my point from the beginnig. Sick, but brilliant.

Jake

Ron Edwards wrote: I was thinking of returning to the issue of the WWGS pamphlet.

And ... the possibilities of the medium.

Fact #1: comics communicate like nobody's business. As Scott McCloud points out so well, the fundamental medium is utilized constantly in advertising and teaching, just not recognized as such. Fact #2: little pamphlets are a neat physical object - they get picked up, looked at, carried around, etc. Fact #3: the RPGs that the Forge is built to support, no matter what their game-preference orientation, are clear about their goals - ie, they present something that can be communicated about.

Anyone seeing where I'm going with this? Is the WWGS possibly an inspiration for something pretty cool and useful? I stress the idea of not playing a hoax but rather a straightforward comics/pamphlet ad.

Or is the fact that White Wolf did it once, and the way they did it, pretty much going to dictate that this medium/format will work once, and once only?

Looking at this page, I suspect "viral advertising" myself. I fear it could be too "succesful" for its own good - fans of Chick may well take all this literally and employ it as such. Someone I know was once accused of being a Satanist by a police officer for reading a Pratchett book; these sorts will likely take this page at face value.

As for pamphlets, I like the format but they are no good for permanent storage. No visible spine, no firm edges. OTOH, I like the novel sized format myself and a product trailed in pamphlet form could easily be scaled to paperback size with minimal reformatting.

Ron Edwards wrote:
It really comes down to whether a person of a religious bent does or does not respect Jack Chick et al. "Well, at least he's acting on his faith, and that's a good thing," some might say. I consider that to be rather a leap, myself, as Chick and friends seem to me to be acting out of stupidity (faith is not stupid).

apparently the Presbyterians are a very persuasive lot. The site has been revamped.

Hi,

Just a quick comment on the "insensitivity" of WW to religions...

Mark R*H's dad is a minister, and he vampire. Mark really thought he was creating a game about the choices one makes a mortal man (hunger and needs) and so on...

So, sometimes abuse is in the eye of the beholder. (Or, perhaps, the creator didn't do his job as well as he wanted.) Either way, it's sometimes difficult to judge intentions -- and Mark meant well.

Christopher

Mark R*H's dad is a minister, and he vampire.

I'm guessing that the "he" refers to Mark, and the ommitted word is "wrote".

Mike

Damn, did I type that too fast.

Corrections: Mark wrote Vampire. His dad loved it. Hence the note about intention. Mark really wanted to address the "dark" side of being alive as a human.... The fact that we often will *have* to hurt to survive -- but how far? His father really respected the fact Mark addressed this theme.

My point was that while some authors might have an anti-religious bent in RPG world -- I don't think WW had one -- at least at the start. (I havne't checked out their latest projects.)

Another example: Yes, in a source book the Mormons are ruled by Vampires. But, and I think Ron will back me up here, in the World of Darkness *every* organization is ruled by some creepy magical creature by the time you worm your way through all the books. So that comment might not be an author's animosity toward Mormons -- it's just the goofiness of the WoD -- everyone but the PCs are dupes and there's nothing you can do about it, no matter *what* you believe.

As for the Pamphlet idea, Ron, could you clarify your notion? Are you talking about a comic in the style of Chick's talking about how "cool" RPGs are? Or The Forge? Or what?

Take care,
Christopher

It's a good thing I never got into the World of Darkness. How paranoid I can afford to have my gaming be is open to some serious thought.

Right now I'm coping with an intriguing and disturbing dilemma regarding my own work. I'm working on a supplement for HeartQuest that expands on the Ghost Tamer Miyaki cam,paign, and I had to finish up[ the section on ghosts with an example. You can see her entire writeup on the Seraphim Guard board on the Forge, I believe. On reflection, and based in part on current events and my own religious beliefs, I think I may have created something rather excessive for this campaign. (I'd point you to the topin in this message but I doin't know how to do that yet).

Where does ones creative impulses have to take second place to ones religious beliefs?

Hi there,

THING ONE
Christopher wrote,
"As for the Pamphlet idea, Ron, could you clarify your notion? Are you talking about a comic in the style of Chick's talking about how "cool" RPGs are? Or The Forge? Or what?"

My notion is vague, because it lasted only thirty seconds before Jake rightly spotted the spoof-nature of the Demon pamphlet. I was thinking about a basic Sorcerer story comic, done in the physical format of a Chick pamphlet (what, 5" long, 2.5" tall, something like that). It would be a good story, it would be nifty to hold and look at, it would be cheap to produce, and it would be a great advertisement (website, physical description of the game, etc, in the back).

As I say, that got flushed away as soon as the White Wolf trick was revealed - now, anything that I put out along these lines would be "imitation." So I'm turning in other directions to satisfy my comics yen, specifically, the Trollbabe site.

THING TWO
The thread Michael mentioned is Is this Ghost too much? in the Seraphim Guard forum. It's a good question and any feedback would be interesting to everyone, I think.

THING THREE
Folks, I think this thread has pretty much run its course. Discussions of "appropriateness" in publishing RPGs should probably be started up in other threads.

Best,
Ron