[font=Century Gothic]This will be my first post in the playtesting forums.
If I am posting incorrectly - let me know and I'll adjust.

I really don't think I need to get into the exact mechanics of my system [A Time of Steel & Staves] - a fantasy roleplaying game.
[sub]Think 2e AD&D type setting with different (hopefully much better)  fundamental rules. Once I am done Designing the system I hope to never play D&D again.
It would be like watching a vhs when you have blueray. [/sub]
To ask for the help I need. I'll just give the Bare minimum with hopes to be less confusing.
basically during my last playtesting session (2nd ever) Some players started asking about bonuses.

Here's the scoop.
In my game you have a 1st line of defense - Parry or Dodge. Then a 2nd line of defense--- Armor.
[sub]if your roll gets past a parry/dodge roll then your number is tested against a static armor value [/sub]

There are bonuses to Dodge - if the character is wearing no armor and penalties if they are.
Therefore an armored Character will most likely choose to parry.
There are bonuses to Parry depending on what you are holding - Shields offer the best Parry bonuses - some weapons are decent as well.
[sub]I don't think its relevant that mine is a game of large bonuses - but to just know the scale of bonuses[/sub]

So players were asking what certain weapons should get as far as parry bonuses. I am hoping that someone can help with some.

For scale here are some examples that playtested well and I am satisfied with.
large (slow) weapons (such as a maul or greatsword) offer no bonus -
Dagger (off hand) offers +1 to a parry bonus.
a main gouche (sp?) or parrying dagger offers +2
a normal size off hand weapon offers +1 (sword/axe/mace/etc)
heater shield/ a viking round "punch" shield offers +3
a kite shield offers +4
a tower shield offers +5 but cannot be wielded as a weapon.

But when asked about a bo staff or quarterstaff? -- a rapier? a whip? a hatchet? a frying pan? [sub](which I treated as a buckler shield[/sub]
even a crossbow? seriously this is why playtesting is so helpful.
who asks that?
Katie: "the berserker is coming at me while I am holding my Crossbow.. do I get a parrying bonus?"
Me:"for now, no, but I will make a note and research and perhaps in the future you will"
Katie: "really cause it seems like something as large as a heavy crossbow would be easy to put in front of an axe"
Me: "noted. but for now just take a +1"
Katie: [sub]under breath[/sub] seems a +2 would be better

I can find nothing in my research that even comes close a crossbow parry.
Does the weapon break when the axe chops into it.. saving throw for the weapon but with a good parry bonus. % roll for a chance to hit the prod (bow part) and ruin the weapon... I don't want to get too crunchy but how would you guys approach something like this?
also in my research
I find that Some think rapiers are the ultimate parrying weapons (thanks hollywood) and others say that historically rapiers were never used for parrying only attacking. its cut and thrust (side swords) that folks like zoro and other swashbuckler types used and what weve been told is rapier fencing.

[/font]

Well I would have thought that demonstratably from Katie there, there is no right way to impliment this. She has her vision of how it'd go, you have yours, I have mine, and millions of other people have theirs, all of which don't match up in various ways.

Really I'd consider some sort of negotiation points being assigned to players at the start of play, so they can push for the +2 or whether the crossbow would break and the GM can assign a negotiation point cost to it, then perhaps the two haggle and maybe either pay the eventual price or it goes the way the GM called it.

IMO the size of the weapons in question play a big part in parrying/blocking.This would play into the characters strength/speed/dex. as well as these may mod. thier ability to effectively wield a weapon. Many systems have a min. strength and/or agility for each weapon to be used proficently. Some weapons are better at parrying due to design etc.

Have you looked at MRQ2 ? That system uses weapon size as the primary mod. for parry.

So yes the crossbow can be used to block (parry requires a bit more finesse) but it may well be damaged. As to the mod. it would provide that depends on how you justify your mods. and what system you use! Could keep it to a simple yes/no with no mods based on the weapons but requiring a saving throw for the weapon ,like the crossbow incident.

cheers!

...just to clarify, MRQ2 uses weapon size to mod. the attackers damage on a successful parry.

:-)

A greatsword is designed for warfare, not chopping tree stumps.  These things are not slow and they are not heavy.  In my opinion, it would be inaccurate to model them as purely offensive weapons; they ought to have parrying bonuses.

Rapiers and their cut-and-thrust siblings are very good at parrying, but the reason why they are offensive weapons is because they aren't designed properly to fight in double-time as a dominant strategy (parry-and-riposte).  By the time you get to the counter, you've telegraphed your attack too much to be effective.  The double-time rapiers are 17th century onwards, and tend to be smaller.

As for wooden objects, they should probably take structural damage upon most parries.  Perhaps a weapon AC is in order?  Heh heh.

In my opinion, it would be inaccurate to model them as purely offensive weapons

Have you looked at MRQ2 ? That system uses weapon size as the primary mod. for parry.

This seems to me like a play style issue. Is the goal to achieve the greatest level of realism? If so, then do your research and make a decision and make the rules as complicated as they need to be. On the other hand, I could see this being an issue of play balance, i.e. is this weapon as good as that weapon, and thus, play style is a big question for me and being able to give you a helpful answer.

In a D&D style, "cinematic" fantasy game, I would want any given weapon to be a viable option, so whether or not something gave a parry bonus would depend on how useful this made the weapon, and you could twist historical realities quite a bit in order to assure that the player who wants his character to use... idk... a board with a nail in it because he though they looked really cool, got enough of a parry bonus to even out its other attributes with any other weapon choice.

A more 'realistic' style is harder to implement, but I would suggest creating broad guidelines that could then be evaluated weapon by weapon. So, size could be a variable (small= 0, medium= 0, large= +1), shape (is it made for parrying +1, does it have a wide surface area +1) could be another. Then, go down the checklist for each weapon and record the value.

Of course, there a lot of room for in betweens. So, as a question, are you more concerned with play balance, or with modeling reality (or now that I think about, some specific fictional genre)?

masqueradeball wrote:
This seems to me like a play style issue....
...Of course, there a lot of room for in betweens. So, as a question, are you more concerned with play balance, or with modeling reality (or now that I think about, some specific fictional genre)?

Does the system have pre-existing rules for cover? If so would you be interested in adding them? You could treat non-standard parrying weapons as very bad at parrying but potentially useful as cover. So in the cross-bow example, she wouldn't be parrying per se, but dodging and using her cross bow for cover. I know its a rather clunky way of handling it, but it seems like the crossbow specific example was a question of "its big and in the way" not "I could effectively maneuver this to block an attack," parrying, after all, is not hiding behind a shield, and in this sense I would think that a great deal of shields (tower shields, for instance) would be very bad for parrying but would amount to, in effect, portable cover. 3e D&D treats tower shields in a manner similar to this.

Rather than making values absolute, you can make them relative.

So, instead of "Greatswords get -1 parry" or "Axes get +1 AP" you can have rules like:

The combatant with the longest weapon strikes first.
If your weapon is heavier than your opponent's, you get -1 parry. If it's shorter, you get +1 parry.
If your weapon is two-handed, you get +1 damage against armour
If your weapon is sharp, you get -1 against metal armour

And so on. With clever phrasing of these rules, you don't need any stats for weapons at all, just descriptions of them.