Ok first of all i would like to say I havent been using forums for many years, and i am quite new to this particular one : Ill try my best to respect the rules and lores of the place but please forgive me if i miss out anything ! Anyway thanks for taking the time to read my post, and I am looking forward to reading any criticisms and suggestions you might come up with. Although I havent been playing for nearly six years now I never quite stopped to think in terms of game design, but i realise many of the subtelties of practical game design probably escape my understanding, so do not hesitate to point out all sort of issues you might think of while reading my ideas !

There are many games already present on the market that deal with the idea of magic, occult or even religion within a contemporary setting - the idea of contemporary fantastic seems to be a very popular one and many different interpretation of the concept have been developed in the last 20 years.
By its very definition, the idea of magic is a very vague one, that can be interpreted in a variety of different ways, and therefore it is no surprise to discover that contemporary fantastic settings, relying essentially on the nature of their "magic" (here i understand magic in the larger sense of the world, that is the fantastic element of the setting) to differentiate themselves from other games in this category. For most of us, or at least for me, reality is defined by the fact that magic as understood by major traditions and/or most roleplaying games is impossible, which is something I know based on my belief in science. A contemporary setting needs to acknowledge the existence of science as both a force within its setting, and a theory explaining the universe, generally antagonistic to the magical/fantastical elements that are included in the setting. I generally can identify three different directions in the ways rpgs are dealing with this contradiction :
1> The approach i would call supernatural ; In this mindset, fantastic elements are unexplained but arent necessary antagonistic with the idea of science. Supernatural events happen and are or will be explained by science, maybe not now but one day. Obvious examples could range from aliens to psychic powers, but in some setting magic as a tradition can also be explained scientifically.
2> The second approach i would call occult : This approach generally requires the reference to an idea of tradition, as in the hidden existence throughout the ages of a secret knowledge. There are powers adverse to science, that fail at being explained within the positivist, scientific logic and answer to a logic of their own, described and developed in doctrines or sciences that have existed since the dawn of the world. Those generally are pereniallists in essence, claiming that there was a greater understanding and knowledge of the occult sciences in ancient civilisations, and that time has only been driving mankind away from this essential knowledge. Games of "social" horror where magical creatures are organised within a society (WoD for example) and heavily occult themed games tend to stick to this approach.
3> Last but not least i see a third approach, post-modern settings. Generally we could describe this take as science doesnt exist, science is magic : where as supernatural approaches claim that society is a lie, while occult settings see history as a lie, post-modern settings see reality as a lie, including of course society, history and everything else. From this point of view the forces at play in science are modern expressions of the same powers that were once called magic, only they have been shaped, for a reason or an other, to follow different rules. Science is no permanent truth but is the result of the spirit of the time, its cultural, like everything else. Settings that follow this idea are fewer than the two previous ones, but I guess Mage : The Ascension and Unknown Armies are two excellent examples. By their bulimic and self-reflective nature, very often those settings tend to appropriate and re-interprete all or parts of the traditional elements of supernatural or occult settings.

You might have guessed from my enthusiasm its to this last, post modern family i am aiming my project at : the original idea came to my mind listening to a conversation between a couple of my friends as they were first discussing questions of finance and share-based company ownership, and later on the phenomenon known as "fiat money" :
Fiat Money is a very poetical terminology, describing the type of money we are all using in our every day interactions. Until Nixon in the US, the dollar notes and coins had a fixed value in gold, and the government was, more or less, liable to exchange it for a sum of gold at any time if the owner of the coins/notes was willing to do so. For this purpose the federal bank was keeping in Fort Knox a huge amount of gold, keeping in control of enough gold to exchange all of the currency in circulation. During the Nixon Crisis, for seveal reasons both political and financial, Richard Nixon decided to start printing more money than they had gold. This virtual money, that had no material existence or value, was to be called Fiat Money, in reference to Fiat Lux, which in the King James Bible's Genesis is the latin wording for Let There Be Light. It could be translated by Let The Be Money.
This phenomenon came somehow like a crown onto several centuries considerable abstraction in the flux and mechanics of finance, with their own, invisible crisis and history, their wars and their heroes, jargons and rival schools - As I dipped into the infinitely complex and exciting world of economy and financial history, I could not deny the similarities between occult as we understand it in contemporary fantastic games, and economy. The idea of combining the two came rather naturally, as finance seemed to be both an odd, yet complex and abstract enough, setting for a magical system.

For several years of gaming i was unsatisfied with the way games treat magical ressources, be it in MedFan or Contemporary fantastic, most games (at the notable exception of Unknown Armies which had an interesting attempt at variating this logic) express the magical energy, that is to say the ressource used by the act of casting spells or creating any supernatural effect, as a pool of points. Magic being in contemporary fantastic games a pillar and central element of the setting i thought i was allowed to expect a more original and a more "integrated" approach to the question. Where as the idea of Health Point had been more or less dismissed for several years already it seemed no one cared for getting rid of magic points. As I realised shortly after, there was a good reason for this : where as health point can be expressed by their material, visible consequences, magic point have no visual or "in game" manifestation.
When I heard about the idea of fiat money, i was charmed by the nearly romantic idea of money being an abstracted, ethereal notion that had lost any fetter to the material world - In a word money was like those magic points, an unsubstantial energy of great power, which, in sufficient quantity, was pretty much omnipotent. From this conclusion, I came to the central idea of my future game, that is to say that money is magical energy. When a character want to cast a spell he needs to spend some money. So far, this is both the concept of the game, money as magic, and the only thing i am sure about.

Now here are a few ideas I had to develop the concept further, be it in terms of game or in terms of setting :

- Obviously in most games, especially contemporary games, dealing with the monetary means of a character is usually a task the GM is, wisely probably, more or less doing for the players. An overly simulationist approach to the question would be both dull and time consuming and we often end up with characters suscribing to either the stereotype of homeless (who needs money when you are a vampire ?) or of magical billionaires. In the case of my game i will need to design a system, and eventually devise a "culture" as in a relationship to money, that will differ. In this game, to magicians, money is sacred, and it is the most valuable, in a way transcendantal, good one can accumulate. For the mechanics to both respect this idea without being deadly boring for the players I will need to make accounting exciting lol. I know that sounds like a BIG challenge.

- Gold. I have been surprised in the past to how universal the value of gold was throughout history. Have you ever wondered how come the same metal was considered as the most valuable good in cultures that couldnt have been in contact ? Gold also have an occult symbolic very powerful, the most obvious example being alchemists trying to change lead into gold - maybe what they were trying to achieve was nothing else than Fiat Money before its time ? I could create an exciting and engaging mythology and secret history around those ideas.

- Pacts; The traditional idea of selling your soul to the devil ; In exchange for your freedom you gain both money and power. Also the idea of slavery is quite interesting.

- Egregores. I was reading Emile Durkheim "Elementary Forms of Religious Life" the other day, and he essentially argues that in the modern world, collectivity has replaced religion and that society, as a concept, is god. I knew of the idea for years and in occult this echoes the idea of egregores, which are spirits existing as the manifestation of a collectivity. Companies, corporations, zaibatsus, etc. in their constant search for more money (aka more magic!) will generate spirits, and in their dedication to the cause of the corporation will somehow venerate the said egregores. When a company start costing loosing money, the egregore becomes too hungry and its servants are at risk of seeing the spirit devour themselves, or maybe even devour their souls...

- Spells. Spells would basically come down to invocating a spirit. The magician would pay a certain sum to a company and then the egregore of this company, with his own particular magical power, would manifest itself.

- Business minded ! I like this relatively recent trend where characters are united by a common goal or organisation structure since the character creation. It could be interesting for the players to create their characters as being share-holders and/or employees of their own start-up business. They could have their own egregore and their very own spell, trying to promote its use and negociating contracts with other magicians.

- Communists ! In Michael Burleigh excellent essay on the links between totalitarian cultures and religion (Sacred Causes) he speaks about a sect called God Builders present within the early soviet movement. Anti-money stance, as well as socialists and other political orientation can be interpreted in different ways under the light of this setting. They could present interesting antagonists... In the same spirit when one looks at the history of actual secret societies (here I think Illumines of Bavaria, Free Masons, etc.) the importance of their relationship to money and to politics, in real world, often over-shadowed their actual interest in occult, that could be used too. Like the occult symbols on the dollar notes, or the process of the "treasure" of the Templars...

Ok I could go on forever, I probably already bored to death half of my readers so im gonna stop here for today !

Please tell me if any of those ideas are already being used in other games, and if you think they are practically viable, and, last but not least, if they sounds interesting and exciting to you ?

i think this premise is awesome. I would be very intrigued to play with all these elements. the only question i have is: what would you actually do, in play, with all these ideas.

I am not absolutely sure if you refer to the actual rules of the game or to what sort of scenario I would go for ?
In terms of rules, except concerning the accent to put on accounting, I have pretty much no idea. I guess an idea of mine has been for long to try to incorporate other factors in a roll than the usual character vs. character or character vs. surrounding. I bet that's sounding pretty blurry but It isnt much clearer in my mind either lol. An other element that was present in each of the game ive designed was the importance of relationships. Generally there are a (large) fixed number of NPCs which the players can browse in order to define their allies, enemies, friends, kindreds, mentors, etc. That is an idea i still feel relevant but i guess I will try to develop it further.
In terms of scenarios now, my personal taste orient me generally towards more low key, minimalist scenarios largely based on the characters background decided by the players. The day to day resolution of their issues and ambition, with a sufficiently complete character creation process is generally enough - now I realise that this would bore most players and gms to death so I always try to leave enough room and elements to satisfy more epic en cinematographic approaches. I think the interactions between modern and traditional magics, diverse real world inspired (Enron anyone ?) financial events, or the conflictual relationships between companies can provide many genres of games. In terms of actual game, a typical game could be "In need of more money you have sold x shares of your egregore to dude y six years ago. Now that you need again more money to expend your company/egregore at a critical time, he offers once again to inject some money, which is quite suspicious given that, being part of the administration council he is aware of the risky financial situation you are in. While researching his recent activities you realise he is actually trying to bring the company down in order to buy it to the lowest price" - In terms of in-game magic, anything that can allow someone to get in touch with the company responsible for the particular spell one want to use will work. Depending on the company though, they might be accessible only by phone or through the internet, or not at all on the internet (in which case you need to drop by their offices, or even worst, send them a letter!).
I hope i answered your question ? Anyway thanks for your enthusiasm it is very much appreciated !

So the idea of the game is to get money so that you can get magic so that you can get more money? 

Gold has not being considered valuable in most cultures by chance. It's the only metal that appear pure in nature. You heard about 'gold veins', but never about 'iron veins' or 'copper veins'. Nothing hidden or strange on it.

You certainly have an interesting premise, and one that I feel could work very well in creating a most-modern occult game. One concern I'd have though is the possibility that by tying magic to money you'd make all successful magicians ultimately the same (ie. billionaires). Perhaps one thing to consider is that instead of tying magic to the expenditure of money, perhaps it could be tied to objects of value. By this I mean not just the perception of monetary value, but also the perception of an object's emotional value. This would reinforce the post-modern feel of your game by tying the value of your "magic fuel" very tightly to people's perceptions of it, and not just allow a variety of different styles of magic to surface and be viable but also make shaping people's perceptions and beliefs very important to the practice of magic. I feel as if you have a great idea, but that limiting it to one specific form of value limits the scope of the game significantly and might cut off potentially interesting characters and scenarios.

Sorry if I was vague. My question was what would happen on a session to session level and within the various sessions. So the game would be about corporate politics? Not that that's a bad thing, but I, and I think a lot of other people, would need a lot of advice to make that doable and interesting. Do you have any specific sources, like TV shows or movies that tell the kind of stories your talking about (It like Wall Street, but with magic), also, what would I do with my magic power? Is it just to make my life easier/niftier, or do I need to do something with it (like combat demons or battle the egregore of other companies to make their stocks go down).

I still think this premise is really good, and I think magic= money is refined enough and doesn't need to be expanded.

I could easily see this premise being used as the driving force in a game of Sorceror (by Ron Edward's...the Forge's Overseer).

Simply apply money as an intermediary between the spirit world and the manifested powers in the physical world.

But it does sound like a great premise for a game.

Wooops loads of good ideas im glad i took the time to post this here !
Here we go for the answers :

Ar wrote:
So the idea of the game is to get money so that you can get magic so that you can get more money?  

Moganhio wrote: Gold has not being considered valuable in most cultures by chance. It's the only metal that appear pure in nature. You heard about 'gold veins', but never about 'iron veins' or 'copper veins'. Nothing hidden or strange on it.

johnthedm7000 wrote:
You certainly have an interesting premise, and one that I feel could work very well in creating a most-modern occult game. One concern I'd have though is the possibility that by tying magic to money you'd make all successful magicians ultimately the same (ie. billionaires). Perhaps one thing to consider is that instead of tying magic to the expenditure of money, perhaps it could be tied to objects of value. By this I mean not just the perception of monetary value, but also the perception of an object's emotional value. This would reinforce the post-modern feel of your game by tying the value of your "magic fuel" very tightly to people's perceptions of it, and not just allow a variety of different styles of magic to surface and be viable but also make shaping people's perceptions and beliefs very important to the practice of magic. I feel as if you have a great idea, but that limiting it to one specific form of value limits the scope of the game significantly and might cut off potentially interesting characters and scenarios.

masqueradeball wrote:
Sorry if I was vague. My question was what would happen on a session to session level and within the various sessions. So the game would be about corporate politics? Not that that's a bad thing, but I, and I think a lot of other people, would need a lot of advice to make that doable and interesting. Do you have any specific sources, like TV shows or movies that tell the kind of stories your talking about (It like Wall Street, but with magic), also, what would I do with my magic power? Is it just to make my life easier/niftier, or do I need to do something with it (like combat demons or battle the egregore of other companies to make their stocks go down).

I still think this premise is really good, and I think magic= money is refined enough and doesn't need to be expanded.

oswald wrote:
I had no clue about that but thanks for the tip - to be honest the fact that gold is the only metal found pure in nature is relatively wonderfull in itself - I bet there must be some sort of chemical explanation but I can imagine how to tie it to my setting.

Awesome... keep it focused, Enron, Mad Men... those are good enough to give me a sense of what its all about. What about mechanics, though? What kind of structure do you think you could give a guy like me (who loves the idea, but who has no idea how to make those kinds of stories happen at the table) be able to run/play this game and not have degenerate (I guess I should use a more neutral word: metamorphose) into something I'm more familiar with (Ars Magica or Mage, for instance).

I guess the magic = money = value idea has been around for yonks in the form of sacrifice.  Back in the day, killing a bull or goat to gain a magical boon was all the rage.    So I suppose in a modern setting, spending money is the equivalent.  But is spending money really sacrifice?  Youd have to give it away, or destroy it maybe.  Depends on rationale I suppose.  Is the 'act of spending something' that intrinsically generates magic, or is it more of an offering to a magical 3rd party type of deal - 'oh great beezlebum, please take this porche 911 as my humble gift'  *Boom*

Look up the KLF, the influential electronic British band from the 1990s.

One of their final public acts was to withdraw one million British pounds from the bank, then burn it.

Given their penchant for conspiracy theories and mysticism, there could be something worth researching for you.

But then again, a lot of their other work has proven to be elaborate hoax work. It's all a part of the mystery of the band.

V

What I got was that investing money in the company, and making it more powerful and effective, was the think that got you magic, not what you did with the money you made from the company.

What I'd like to see is a game that taught people money-making strategies, and how to handle money, with the reward being the ability to rewrite the setting the way they wanted to with the creative/labor energy stored in the profit they made.

Ever wanted to be immortal? What if you got a chance to see the price tag? Still want to be immortal?

Ever want to bring someone back from the grave, like a childhood friend who died too soon? At what cost?

Ever wanted to see the actual price tag on love?

How about the price of peace?

Basically, I'm kind of inspired by Freemarket, where you have to build things and give people stuff to get influence and get things you want done. The way I see it, if done right this game could take it further: Show how to capitalize on opportunities, how to get the most done for your "heaven money", how to set aside money for those ongoing extended effects, and so on. Basically, turning the whole "money is a form of magic" thing and taking it to it's logical conclusion.

You might want to check out Your Money or Your Life by Joe Dominguez & Vicki Robin-- the chapter "Money Ain't What It Used to Be--and Never Was" seems like it would be right up the ally of a game like this. Dominguez claims that the only universally consistent definition of money is this: Money is something we choose to trade our life energy for.

Our life energy is our allotment of time here on earth, the hours of precious life available to us. When we go to our jobs, we are trading our life energy for money. This truth, while simple, is profound. Less obvious but equally true, when we go to the welfare office, we are trading our life energy for money. When we go to Reno, we are trading our life energy for money (we hope). Even windfalls like inheritances must in some way be "earned" to actually belong to the heir--life energy must be exchanged. Time must be spent with lawyers, accountants, trustees, brokers and investment counselors to handle the money. Or time is spent in therapy working out the relationship with the deceased or the guilt at receiving all that money. Or time is spent investigating worthy causes to fund. All this is life energy traded for money.

[...]

Money = Your Life Energy

For inspiration, have you seen the 90s TV series "Profit"?  It only lasted a short run because of its dark subject matter but you can get it easily and cheaply enough on DVD.  The central character schemes constantly to increase his power within the conglomerate in which he works and, although he is an employee rather than an business-owner, the sheer variety of schemes and scenarios with the emphasis on psychology and manipulation might well be useful to you.

It is also really good entertainment!