Topic: Questions
Started by: Enoch
Started on: 8/19/2002
Board: The Riddle of Steel
On 8/19/2002 at 2:09pm, Enoch wrote:
Questions
I hate to make a whole thread out of this, but I have a tRoS game tomorrow and I need some clarification.
Questions:
1. How exactly do you move in close (if you're fighting someone with a longer sword)? The way I have been doing it is charging to CP. I remember reading something involving Duck and Weave, but I'm still not to sure.
2. What does having all of your CP lost from Pain represent? The way I have been doing it is that they just kind of stand or lie there writhing in pain.
3. What areas does a shield cover? How about the large kite shield?
Thanks that's about it. We already ran some duels and my players really enjoyed it.
Andre (see Toughness thread) is rethinking his overconfidence because of my brothers excellent sparring skills, so I'm not too worried about high Toughness anymore.
-Joshua
On 8/19/2002 at 3:02pm, Wolfen wrote:
RE: Questions
1. How exactly do you move in close (if you're fighting someone with a longer sword)? The way I have been doing it is charging to CP. I remember reading something involving Duck and Weave, but I'm still not to sure.
I've got a short sword, you've got a longsword. I attack you, I've got a range penalty. However, if I hit you, suddenly the situation is reversed. I'm "in your face" and you're at a disadvantage to both offense and defense. This is the most common way to close range with an opponent with a longer weapon. This is also why Tiberius starts on the defensive, because he is biding his time until a chance opens up. The attack does not have to do injury, it just has to be successful; once you've done that, you're in and the tables are turned.
2. What does having all of your CP lost from Pain represent? The way I have been doing it is that they just kind of stand or lie there writhing in pain.
That's one way to represent it. Another is simply that a character is so blinded and distracted by pain that they can attempt to react, but their actions will be totally futile. Either way, the only possible way you'll get any action in combat when you are so overcome by pain is via your SAs. Otherwise, you are at your opponent's mercy... And any good opponent won't have any.
3. What areas does a shield cover? How about the large kite shield?
Depends on the shield. Your average heater shield will cover the entire shield arm, shieldside torso, and upper hip/lower shoulder. Kite shields are generally longer, so may also protect as low as the knee without exposing shoulder. I would actually recommend determining, with most shields, if they have a high medium or a low defense, as a high defense can defend even the head, but leave the leg open, and a low defense can make the shieldside leg nigh-untouchable. You also might want to determine a close form or open form fighting stance with the shield (although this could be covered by Aggressive and Defensive stances). Open form leaves you more open, but allows more options for attack for the shieldman, whereas close form can extend the shield's protection to the center torso, but notably reduces your attack options. Open form is used more often in duels, whereas close form is used often in melees where a shieldwall may be the only thing keeping your line from being overrun.
::Suddenly realizes an area the SCA might be superior to the ARMA.. Unless the ARMA conducts melees with an excess of 100 combatants...::
Anyhow, that's probably a lot more answer than you wanted, but if you haven't noticed by now, I tend to be opinionated and gregarious.
On 8/19/2002 at 6:55pm, Mike Holmes wrote:
RE: Questions
Clement said in his demo that big kite shields were never actually used by knights. They are a result of later generations using decorative shields in heraldry, and our assumption that such were therefore actually used on the field of battle. They appear in victorian and later art, but not in the art of the period.
Mike
On 8/19/2002 at 7:28pm, Sneaky Git wrote:
RE: Questions
Mike Holmes wrote: Clement said in his demo that big kite shields were never actually used by knights. They are a result of later generations using decorative shields in heraldry, and our assumption that such were therefore actually used on the field of battle. They appear in victorian and later art, but not in the art of the period.
This is curious. What of the Bayeux Tapestry? It clearly depicts mounted Norman warriors ("knights") wielding a variety of weapons including lance/spear and straightsword.. and large "kite" shields.
I am reasonably comfortable with the belief that the Bishop Odo commissioned the creation of this tapestry (embroidery, really) shortly after the conclusion of the battle.. as a means of commemorating the events that transpired. As far as I know, the images are supposed to be accurate.
That being the case, I'm curious as to where Clement got his facts?
On 8/19/2002 at 8:50pm, Mike Holmes wrote:
RE: Questions
My mistake, a mixup in terminology.
It's the large heater shields that were not used (hence the diatribe on heraldry, which is all on heater shields), not Kite shields. I thought that such were called kite shields. Actually, Clement did point out that vikings used large round shields, and Kite shields, IIRC. As such their Norman descendants used large shields as well but they got smaller and smaller over time, emulating the rest of Eupropean design. As soon as you get heaters, they are arm length affairs, with the point at the end of the arm (rather than usually depicted with point to the ground across the arm).
So, Lance's description works just fine for locations covered. Maybe slightly less. Play it by description.
His point about large shields like the kite design, was that they were anti-missile designs, meant to be rested on the ground when not moving. More mantlets than shields. And that often they were abandoned in melee as too unweildy. IOW, give big CP penalties for such a shield.
Mike
On 8/20/2002 at 5:39pm, Enoch wrote:
RE: Questions
Thanks Wolfen! That really helped.
-Joshua
On 8/20/2002 at 7:21pm, Wolfen wrote:
RE: Questions
Heaters were not actually used in period combat? I can't naysay you, but they are some of the most effective and prolific on the field of battle in SCA melees. Mind, they aren't the best for massive melees with shield walls, where your massive "door shields" (certainly not what they were called in period times) about 2.5'-3' across and 4' high are your most effective, but only because they don't leave gaps at the bottom of the shieldwall between shieldmen, allowing spearmen to take advantage.
My knowledge of shields comes mostly from watching their use in melees, and recently facing against them, looking for the weak points to hit with my bastard sword. The heaters and heater-style shields (with about the same measurements of the aforementioned door shields, but heater shaped) are considerably more effective than your round shields, and the round viking shields (with the hand hold in the center, under the shield boss) due to the defensive uses of the points. I've even seen some shields with sword-side upper corner raised 4"-5" to prevent those flat shots which often take the head. I don't know how period *that* is, but I do know some fighters who swear by it.
On 8/20/2002 at 10:05pm, Mike Holmes wrote:
RE: Questions
I'm not being clear. They used heaters too. They were just much smaller than people think, covering only the forearm, mostly, and I think being worn perpendicular to how people often assume that they were worn. Like a large buckler, really.
I'm not certain what they used for jousting, but I imagine that like most jousting armor they were specialized for that purpose, and not something that would be used in combat.
Note that the Romans certainly used shields like you describe. But again, tower shields were more for missile defense than personal defense apparently.
Mike,
wishing Jake were here to correct whatever of this is inaccurate.
On 8/21/2002 at 5:22pm, Lyrax wrote:
RE: Questions
heaters weren't used as much as many people think, but they weren't totally disregarded, either. Mike is on the right track there, IMO. Jousting shields were simply modified heaters, most of the time, as were decorative shields.
Round shields, OTOH, were very popular for a long time, and for very good reasons. Round shields are extremely useful for personal protection, and can do a good job against missiles as well. Hits to a round surface tend to deflect more than stop, and deflecting is always much easier on the surface, making the shield last longer. In Japan, round shields were often made from polished tortoise shells (possible with small people and big tortoises). Hits to a shield like this would deflect almost all of the time, making the shield last longer.