Those who were kind enough to comment on my self-serving and grammarically challenged venting thread When the GM say "Better Watch Out..." I have a slight update. This will end, end soon and probably end badly.

Here's the deal. My friend's D&D3e game is winding down and before he runs his homebrewed/Ironwood game he wanted someone else to run something so he could play for a bit before GMing again. I could've run something, but I'll cover that later. So his girlfriend will be running her game.

Great googie mooglie.

Now, to be fair, it has been a while since I've played in her game. Last time was....jesus! eight years ago (I feel fucking old now) back when she was still stuck on first edition AD&D and refused to use point-based RPG character creation because, well, she'd never used it. She's changed on that point, and a few others since then, but I don't think that everything is all that changed.

Last night, we rolled up characters. For whatever reason she's decided to use my friend's homebrew which could be a bad thing. I get the feeling that the game is in a constant state of flux, career skill packages have been redone a few times the current printout is incorrect, etc. For those of you who find GURP to light on the math, I present you with this game, an accountant's dream or nightmare depending on how much you like your job.

Most of my complaints in the original post about this game remain and, maybe, get jacked up a bit. The bloody thing has 5-6 page character sheet (hard to tell exactly that's how organized it is) This character sheet is mostly her design, but my problem with it is that it's largely redundant. You have one sheet listing your character's perks & flaws and you list the points you spend/gain on this page. On another page you list your perks & flaws again but this time the rank at which it is at. And I'm pretty sure that they go on another page somewhere for some reason, too. Oy vey and stuff!

That's about all I can tell you about the system itself because I cheated. A few weeks ago, when several other players couldn't make it to the game we test-drove this game using pre-generated characters. I said I wanted to use the pre-gen character. I am a sneaky bastard like that. Just as well. How it work, you get 40 points to spend and you can take up to 40 points in flaws for a total of 80 points. And they were like, take forty points worth of flaws and my mind was literally smoking looking at the flaw list because I really didn't want to take any of them. Didn't care if I got any perks, either. At least I really didn't feel like choosing any. This is one of the flaws of point based character generation. You can indeed build whatever character you want, but unless you know what to build, it's kind of pointless and frustrating. "Hey, that's a nice skyscraper. But you were supposed to build a bridge."

We arrived at 7 PM and we worked on this until 11 PM and she said we have another session yet to finish up and an introduction thing. Gad. It's like an awards show. Two weeks worth of playing time shot to hell because of preparation. A decnt chunk of that time was spend using Task Force Games's Central Casting, an RPG product who's novelty has long since worn off on me since most of the stuff we get from it never makes it into an actual play session. Sometimes, yeah, but more often than not, nope. never.

But this is all crap I've said before. What got me is something she said at the end of the evening. A lengthy, improvised speech about what to expect from her as a GM:



• She's the sort of GM who if you don't have it written down you don't have it. If you don't say it you don't do it.

This basically boils down mind reading. I recall from our first session eight years ago, the game started with the party being sent out on some kind of mission for...something. After playing with my friend as GM for so long, someone else's GMing style can be a shock. We left...wherever we were and she goes "six moths later you've traveled X miles..." This threw us all for a loop, but it was just different. However later that same evening she goes, "OK you've been traveling for a couple hours now and you're starting to get really hungry." You see, we didn't say we were taking breaks for eating so therefore we didn't do it. I don't know about you guys but I detest this sort of micromanagement-style play. It gets sillier. We later find an abbandoned wagon but we didn't notice the rotting fish secreted in a "secret compartment." I mean, it was several pounds of dried fish going bad but because we didn't say "do we smell anything?" we didn't smell it.

• you are going to do more roleplaying in this campaign.

Read: there won't be quite as much combat. Roleplaying may or may not occur. I recall a good deal of time spent searching the wagon above, lots of time wasted on that. We could have searched and found everything much faster if it was us searching a real wagon in real life. It may be just my perspective, I seem to remember that pretty much every character we met were airheads, so that's how I think she played them. Hopefully this part has changed in the last decade.

My wife also recalls spending at least one or more sessions sitting out of the game because she got possessed by the ghosts of the people from that wagon and they pretty much took her out of the game, and then when we got to a heal temple, she spend that whole session in "therapy." Key- rist!

• I will not tolerate in-fighting or kibitzing or...in-fighting...

WTF! First of all, we have a first two rules of Fight Club thing going on here. I'm not sure what she means by in-fighting. I haven't notice this group fighting over stuff and even her boyfriend had to ask what the hell she meant by kibitzing. She explained but I'm still not sure.



The whole thing is giving me a headache and I'm not looking forward to having to make up a new character for my friends campaign because I probably can't cheat with the pre-generated character for that. Phoo.

I would simply leave this game. Not playing at all is starting to have its appeal, but these people are friends and I don't think I want to just sever the relationship like that. I mean, we went on a double date on Thursday night, my friend and his girlfriend (the rest of the group has no social life, it seems, so they're disposible IMO). So if I do leave, it will have to be gently, somehow, since I don't want to damage the relationship. It's made even more complicated since my wife goes as well and she's not on the same page as I am about this. Not gaming isn't appealing to her... yet.

But, I'm not going to bother trying to get these guys to try something I'd be happier with. It goes like this, and it confirms what I had already known.

Before going out, we met at the LGS. They had Sorcerer's Soul, which I picked up. Unfortunately, my friend saw it. "What's that? I've never heard of it. What is it?"

Cripes.

I really didn't know what to say, or how to explain it. He's got a history of making snap judgements about things like this and shit. He bought the Theatrix Ironwood suppliment for the source material, but considers the game poop. After I notice this feature of his personality, I stopped telling him about stuff I had found because I didn't need to hear him put it down.

So he asks about Sorcerer again over dinner. I tried to describe the whole sorcerer/demon relationship thing but I didn't think of a perfect example: Little Shop of Horrors, until the next day. But what I did say was, remember that GNS thing? It's by the guy who wrote that.

Actually, I had given him several printouts of RPG stuff from the net, including the Interactive Toolkit so I'm not sure what he was really to or in which article these comments were from, but anyway...

He said ROn had some good points but he had a couple problems:

* That [he] seemed to think that [he] thought his style of playing is superior or something. This is an old GNS arguement, so to hell with it.

* Some kind of comment on the combat mechanics found in other games, to which my friend said "well duh, because combat isn't like other actions." My friend then displayed some deep-seeded syndochey by saying that detailed combat systems are what gamers want and then noting that Diablo has sold better than James Pond.

Now, the James Pond/Diablo thing is just stupid. James pond is probably less Narrativist than Diablo so that's no comparason.

The entire time I was thinking inside "I really don't care for detailed combat systems." but I said nothing. Chalk it up to cowardice. But I think it's clear that he is not open to the idea of such games. Oh he might let me run it if I offer, but that'd be like Jesse's story of the Everyway player who played just to "prove" how "broken" Everway is.

So thanks for listening. Sorry about venting again but I'm just frustrated beyond recognition about this.

Find...a...new...group.

Honestly. This isn't good. And if you and your wife want to play, you need to, but in a different group.

This is like playing on the softball team when you can't stand softball, or going to a friend's house for Monday Night Football and being frustrated that you have to engage in sports-team conversation/arguments and cheering even though you don't follow and barely like football.

Saying, "I'm really not happy with our group's style of play, and I'm just not enjoying myself," is not the end of the world. If you are good friends, you can still do stuff together, just not gaming. Go to a movie, play poker, join the softball team together or the bowling league, etc.

It seems you have 3 options: Leave the group, stay with the group and suffer, or *show* the group how you want to play and see if they're willing to accomodate. Greyorn covered the first option. Your post chronicled your struggle with the second. I'll take a stab at the third.

Your descriptions of "Ted" convey someone to whom actions speak louder than words. You said he used to shoot his mouth off about Magic until he tried it. So, I suggest you run Sorcerer for him. Or, as he's fond of detailed combat systems, The Riddle of Steel. Don't give him too much of a pregame pitch. Don't mention GNS. Just say something along the lines of "I'd like my shot at the GM's chair for a few sessions. I'd like to run something a little different. If you don't like it, it's just a few weeks."

I got in a similar situation. My wife and I have gamer friends that we hadn't gamed with for a while. We managed to schedule a time and my wife suggested I run Sorcerer. Well, with no prep time (she made this suggestion only a few hours before we were to start), I launched right into Sorcerer character creation and, when that was done, pulled a few hours of Actual Play out of thin air to get us started. The reception was mixed.

I had been reluctant to run Sorcerer for them (and for my wife) both because the game has bite while they have a tendency to go off on pun and gossip tangents AND that they're fairly heavily into White Wolf (where Humanity means something completely different). Well, last night was the second session--the one I had done some (but not enough) prep for. We gamed for just shy of four solid hours! They didn't want to stop. They even marveled at the fact that there had been no tangents. ("It's the intense roleplaying game" quoth I) I swear, the game is magic!

My point is, I didn't expect this reception and I would never have known if I hadn't SHOWN them the game. Simply put: do it.

Worse case scenario is they hate it so much that they boot you out of the group, right? Doesn't that solve your problem, too? 8-)

Good Luck

Hi, Michael

You're right of course. I should quit bitchin' and just take action. I'll try not to gripe about this anymore, on the Forge at any rate, until the situation at least changes. I had thought twice about posting this in the first place, but I thought that there might be some useful tidbits in an actual play sort of way to someone able to cut through the crap. (BTW thanks for reading up on my problems with "Ted" That makes me feel kinda special and stuff)

In any case if I do attempt to run something like you suggest, It'll probably not be Sorcerer. THe last thing I tried to show Ted was kill puppies for satan. I figured he'd get a kick out of reading it since it is pretty darn funny, but I'm not sure if he had read it at this point since last time I mentioned it he had some kind of attitude and said something about how he doesn't like the players playing evil characters. He kind of said in with a similar tone as "I know you think you're in love but thirty year old men should not be having sex with sixteen year old girls." If you get my meaning.

When I told him Sorcerer was about bound demons and such he seemed to take a similar attitude. I'm not sure if there's something to this or if he's just worried I've become a Satanist or what. I have noticed Wicca books around his house, but I think his g/f brought those when she moved in. What I mean here is that I get the feeling Sorcerer already has a strike against it in his mind, not unlike Titanic which he decided he hated because it was so popular, you see. (He still has a copy of it I loaned him but he still hasn't watched it yet. It's been over a year, maybe longer)

So I don't know what to try, if I do try anything. No offense to RoS but I'm not interested in buying any more RPG books even if it would be perfect. I've since decided that I have too many unused RPG books. I just got Sorcerer's Soul to round out the trilogy.

I any case, I've burdened you guys with this long enough.

Been thinking about this over the weekend: there's another option.

If you, and the other players, find the GMing style so frustrating, you ALL need to take a stand on it. Sit down and talk with the other players, let them know that you feel the same way and you think everyone should speak up next time a dislikable ruling or GMing behvaior pops up.

Then do it. Either your GM will quit (in which case you are lucky, you don't want such a person GMing anyways), keep doing things the way they are (at which point it's time to talk to them again, and form a solid front with the other players...after all, it isn't the GMs game, it's the players), or change their style to accomodate the way your group enjoys playing.

Hi, Raven (ir is Raven, right? The art guy?)

Funny you should mention talking to the other players. We game at the GM's house and since I'm the only other person with a car, we wind up taking people home. On the drive home I mention this or that and I've sounded out the other people a bit.

First off, I'm of the opinion that these guys are real sheep. "Ted" has a fairly forceful personality. Hell, for a while there I was a freakin' sheep. This is probably the root on most of my problems with the guy. Most of them are perfectly happy to leave things as they are. They might have one or two complaints, like my rant of the way magic works in "Ted's" homebrewed system, but just because they find it cumbersome doesn't mean they won't use it anyway.

One guy is one of these rules memorizers. He memorizes the rulebook not so much to gain an advantage but because he can and it is useful not to have to look things up like that. I had shown him my game The Wheel at one point. His comment was "I'd be interesting to see if it works." I've sounded this guy out the least because he'll often spend the night and get a ride home the next day.

Another guy is only 16, 17 years old, so he's got all of that going on. He's also got home issues. Sometimes we drop him off at his mom's house, other times his dad's. I'm getting the vibe that neither is a very happy home life for him. He's just too young and riddled with too many personal problems to take a stand, either with me or "Ted."

The third guy lives in a group home for people with mental problems. He's usually a Gloomy Gus but lately his meds have been really fucking him up. Bad.

Which leave my wife. I love her and all, but she's just not so much into the lunatic fringe of RPGs like I am :) She usually just takes a fighter type with the main strategy of just hitting people and things until they fall down and don't get up anymore. Like many gamers I've met, she claims to like the storytelling found in most RPGs but doesn't really want to have a hand in making it beyond rolling dice & stuff (for the most part. It's never that simple)

One thing I'm slowly begining to realize just now as I write this is that it's not Ted that's the problem, but me. I have a problem with Ted. As a former sheep (Ted is very good at arguing intelligently. It makes him appear smarter and, thus, people who wish to be smarter *waves hand* tend to follow him and take what he says and stuff at face value) I just don't know where to start to confront the guy. I'm also not so sure that confronting him will solve anything. WHat I wish he would do is email me his game rules so I could critique them, but he hasn't sent them and I asked for them like three months ago. I dunno. It seems cowardly to me, but it'd be easier to discuss things of this nature with him in email. It'd give me enough time to think about my answers, which I just can't seem to do in real life with him.

So, anyway, thanks for thinking of me and stuff. Don't worry about me. I figure something out.

Yep, Raven, "the art guy." <grin>

easier to discuss...in email. It'd give me enough time to think about my answers, which I just can't seem to do in real life with him

(BREAKING NEWS BULLETIN: )

Since some people have been following this, I have two semi-updates on this topic.

The first is an old play, we'll call him Lou, is moving back to town. This is kind of weird. Seven years ago the group was me, my wife-then-girlfriend, Lou and Ted as the GM. One day Lou suddenly announces that he's moving to California. Just like that. It would be surprising but this was typical behavior on Lou's part. "That's Lou," Ted said. In any case, Lou had been doing well out in the Golden State. His girlfriend from around here followed him out there and they're married now and stuff. She's been homesick and missing her family so now he's packing up and moving back. "That's Lou."

In any case, there's a chance he might join the game again. I'm not so sure that's a hot idea. I recall he was something of a disruption. Not that Ted couldn't handle him, but the fact was Ted had to handle him. According to Ted, Lou grew up without a father and as such has zero respect for authority. What little respect for authority he does have he probably learned from sources like Ted later in life. It's been seven years, but I recall some rules lawyering and killer player mentality.

However, it has been seven years, so the man may have changed. ALthough I get the feeling from Ted that Lou hasn't gamed much if at all in those seven years.

And there's a little wrinkle in the whole Lou thing. How to put this delicately without this turning into "Oprah?" In college, my wife was in a rather abusive relationship. One day she took a bunch of pills and Lou happened to be answer his phone when she called. So the wife is convinced that Lou is "a real good friend." Rose colored glasses, if you get my meaning. So she's all excited about seeing the guy again.

Me? I don't dislike Lou but at the same time after seven years I have nothing to say to the guy either. We're just two people with nothing in common at all except for the game.

But I shouldn't speak too soon. Ted may not let Lou in since he's not such how Lou has changed and/or how he'll fit into this group at all. We'll have to see about this.

The other bulletin is that last night, after the game, the wife & I were driving home and she pointed out that all I was doing was bitching about the game. That all I do is sit there and mope and then bitch about it afterwards. And especially bitching about the upcoming game to be run by Ted's girlfriend.

This gave me pause. In spite of all of the advice I've gotten here and stuff, I hadn't seriously considered quitting the game until she said that. I mean, seriously. This worries me a bit since if I follow my usual behavior pattern on this, i'll just not show up one week. That's how I quit going to church. I would hope that I'd matured a bit more in the last couple years and could be a little more up front about such things.

Ted had offered to let me run Sorcerer (I guess he's been spoiling to Play, not GM, lately. He even tried to get the wife to run Rolemaster even though she'd all but sworn that crappy game off. The one and only time she'd run it, she'd gotten such a headache it wasn't funny) Maybe I'll try it after all. If it works it works. If not, I'll just find a new group, I guess. We'll see.

Jack,

Here's my take:

I've acted in a lot of theater in Chicago and L.A.

Small theaters, and such.

About a week into every production I've ever been in, I could smell how the show was going to go. It was either going to work (with standard or exceptional effort), or it was going to stink.

Early on I'd think, "Oh, I can't leave. I've made a committment. I've got to stick it out and see what I can do to make it better."

And I would put my all in. (All being: giving up work on a TV show to make a performance, when other people in the show (members of the theater company, actually), blew off performances to do paying gigs.)

Here's what I learned:

When you smell a stink, leave.

Here's what happened at the last show I got cast in. I was hired for a show in L.A. At the first rehearsal, the schedule was disorganized, I had to wait for two hours because my call time was screwed up, other actors left early, and one of my fellow actors "playfully" jabbed me in the ribs with his elbow as a bit of improvised comedy. (Those with stage combat experience out there know what a no-no that is.)

Total amateurs, and I knew it.

I smiled to everyone as I left, called my manager, and told him to say goodbye for me. Three weeks into rehearsal the show folded and never got in front of an audience.

Sticking with pathogical conditions is a form a craziness. (One definition of insanity: Repeating the same behavior and expecting a different result.)

When you know you have no business being some place, or hanging with a certain of group of people -- leave. Don't feel bad about it, but do it politely. Don't burn bridges, but get yourself out. It's that simple.

Stick-to-it-ness matters... Up to a point. But when that point is reached: Go. You know that point, too. We all do. It's when we know things aren't going to change. The trick is, we can ignore that warning. Are you ignoring the warning for fear of "quitting"? That's the line.

Just check your gut, my friend.

Take care,
Christopher

Christopher Kubasik wrote: Stick-to-it-ness matters... Up to a point. But when that point is reached: Go. You know that point, too. We all do. It's when we know things aren't going to change. The trick is, we can ignore that warning. Are you ignoring the warning for fear of "quitting"? That's the line.

Just check your gut, my friend.

UPDATE:

As of yesterday my friend's girlfriend's game, the one I was bitchin' about above, is officially cancelled. The reason's why are sketchy at this time, but he says that she's "frustrated by several little things...and she doesn't know the rules very well." I have a pretty good idea that one of the frustrating little things is me because, well, I was just not into all the point allocating and stuff. I should've been more upfront about it, but, good god things were on the micromanagment level. Such as, for those of you who took me up on checking out my character sheet for this game, there's a page for likes and dislikes. She was unhappy with me because I only chose one thing under each cataegory, and some categories I only put down a like, not a dislike. To this I say, well whatever. I don't see the roleplaying potential or necessity in selecting my character's favorite foods when I can't even answer that question about myself, the real person! I mean, I haven't really met this character yet, that won't happen until actual play, so how am I supposed to know about these things? Besides, she's the type of person when something doesn't quite go her way she throws a hissy-fit. It could be the red hair, but it's probably just her.

Anyhow, this creates an interesting development since my friend (note I'm not calling him "Ted" anymore. Thank God for small favors) since my friend won't be ready to run his game (using these same rules) until probably after October, possibly later. This give me a nice little "in" to running something. All I really have to do is take it.

That said, I'm rethinking which game to run with these guys. To be frank, I don't think they'll "get" Sorcerer very well. Maybe they would, maybe the idea of demons would be too much of a hinderance. But all of that aside, I realised after reading the recent review on RPGnet that Elfs is much more in this group's style anyway.

For example, last week we did the wrap-up for the D&D game. The king (whom the group put on the throne BTW) was giving a very heartfelt speech "thanks for saving the world and stuff" kind of thing but completely serious and then to show his appreciation, he knelt before the group, and everyone in the audience knelt and the GM's gf yells "Leapfrog!" and jumped over the king and everyone else followed suit.

Cripes, man. They've been playing Elfs in spirit while using D&D rules! So my thinking is Elfs would go over better since it's humorous by nature and these guys get fairly silly. Sorcerer, while adaptable to most any tone, I would try to be too serious with it and that'd just go over like a lead ballon, I think. But that's my opinion.

Besides, Elfs is light enough that if they like it, I can try Sorcerer out on them afterwards (especially if I get my friend to forget about his own game) or if not, there's still the possibility for the other group.

Besides, I'd like to read Practical Demonkeeping first before trying to GM Sorcerer, but lately I've been reading some Salinger I've picked up somewhere (Raise High the Roof Beam, Carpenters and Seymour- An Introduction if you're interested) so it'll take a while. I am such a slow reader.

Your stick-to-it ness is commendable but it seems to me that there is a more serious problem here. You mentioned that your the only with a car? Thats not good doing the whole "can I get a ride thing." It actually seems to me that Ted is not the one keeping this group together. I think you are. Sure he is the forceful p[ersonality here but none of the rest of them seem motivated enough that IF you left the group would survive very long.
I applaud the people here who say stick to it, be an adult, try and change them but I doubt any of them want to change because they do not see a need for it.
If you went to another group I am sure your wife would follow, but no matter how much the others might beg, don't let them. Make a break for yourself and experience new people and new faces. The group itself seems like its got alot of problems, problems that you do not need to solve. If you love Role Playing (like I do) find a group of people that let you love it. This is not going on here.

Just my 2 Lunars and as someone else on here says, I am not a Therapist but the advice is free

SMH
ADGBoss

Jack Spencer Jr wrote: I don't see the roleplaying potential or necessity in selecting my character's favorite foods when I can't even answer that question about myself, the real person! I mean, I haven't really met this character yet, that won't happen until actual play, so how am I supposed to know about these things?

RE-UPDATE:

It seems her game is back on after all. It seemed to be that:

1) she disliked my friend correcting her and re-explaining stuff she'd just explained even though he was just being helpful and he wrote the damned rules.

Wimming!

2) one play in particular, and not me as I had feared, was pissing her off something fierce. He's the one who memerizes the rules because he can. Sort of the rules lawyer, but I personally haven't seen him use this to an advantage. He just corrects rulings via the rules as written. So it's still annoying.

In any case, this completely shoots down my last post. But I've been re-reading my copy of Elfs and I'm not sure now if that's what I want to do after all. (Gah!) The player/character experiment in Elfs really isn't for this group IMO. So I'll have to give it some more thought.

Hey, ADGBoss

I should probably clairify a few things. Usually Ted picks up the other three. He works in sales and he doesn't seem to mind. One of the guys usually spends the night. Two of them used to, but the other guy is allergic to cats (Ted has like 9 of 'em) and can't spend the night anymore. The third is 17, like I had said so his parents kind of expect him home.

So I strongly suspect that if I were to leave, Ted would pick up the dropping everybody off slack. We just do because we live further away than anybody so, more-or-less, everyone else is on our way home.

I think what keeps me on this is Ted, and to a certain exstent, his girlfriend. He is my oldest friend and shut-ins like me don't have many friends. I've known the man nine years or so. There's been a lot of water under that particular bridge. That and I'm pretty sure that he'd get the most out of these crazy new RPGs I've been tinkering with, but so far he's been resistent. I showed him kill puppies for satan. I showed him Elfs. I showed him Little Fears. I showed him Orkworld. SO far he hasn't given them much more than a passing glance. I would tell him about the Forge except I doubt he'd look around here much either, and I wouldn't want him to see these post. Hmmm...

I think it's because he needs to see that these games work, they are worthwhile and fun and that he should rethink coming up with a Rolemaster/GURPS clone because for all of that work, it's not any more fun.

Yeah, OK GNS and all of that, but I'm pretty sure that in there somewhere he has Narrativist prioreties and he just needs them exercised with a proper system to realise the true potential of what he's trying to do without all of that other baggage which doesn't help with his goal.

His girlfriend is a little harder to pin, but I think that she'd fall in line with this even faster than him once she got a handle on it. Might take her longer to get a handle, but she'd still get it.

So that's what this is all about. Or so it seems to me at this moment.

Ok yeah that clarifies things somewhat though I think some of my advice may still help you. I had to walk away from gaming with my friend (and God Son actually... he was baptized late in life and in those the Church and I still got along :) ) because I couldn't stand playing in his games or with him anymore.

In any case I hope this works out well for you

SMH
ADGBoss

Jack Spencer Jr wrote: RE-UPDATE:

It seems her game is back on after all. It seemed to be that:

1) she disliked my friend correcting her and re-explaining stuff she'd just explained even though he was just being helpful and he wrote the damned rules.

Hi Max

Well, first a clairification:

My friend didn't exactly contridict her as when she explained something and she got a bunch of blank stares back he'd re-explain and get a bunch of "oh!"'s. Or something. But this is something that my wife said he said. So this knowledge isn't exactly fresh.

And AFA him writing the rules, the real problem with it is the rules are still WIP. They have nice printed-out handouts with some stuff crossed off because they've changed stuff already. Her game is going to be, more or less, a playtest session because she's said as much. It's going to be a hard row to hoe since the rules keep changing, or so it seems.

As to you other point. You're right. I should be more up-front about it. But I guess my friend has already addressed this issue by telling her that "Jack prefers to keep his character vague and then develop them during play." We'll see how she deals with *that* or not. Money says she'll eventually tell me: "I know you prefer to keep you character vague and then develop them during play, *BUT*..."

Fair enough Jack, that does make more sense. I was just a bit concerned that maybe you were being unfair. The extra explanation gives a bit more context and it doesn't sound like you were being.

As to the openness, yeah, it'll probably get you nowhere but at least you'll have tried...

Good luck and please keep us posted :-)

OK. Here's what went down last night. This'll be lengthy, so you might want to go get a snack or take a leak now.

Last night, my friend's GF started her game. Thing is we, my wife and I, arrived at 6. The other four guys were already there but she doesn't get home from work until 7. So for an hour they played a little of the new Mechwarrior game. I was bored out of my mind because I've already discovered that wargames, at least of the sort of the new Mechwarrior game, are not for me. Fortunately they have nine cats or so, so I occupied myself pestering them. When she finally arrived, she handed out out character sheets, all nice & printed out with all the values printed on there. (I assume every session will have a newly printed character sheets since even highly fluctuating value like money are printed on the sheet. She then took us outside one at a time for a little one-on-one. To kill time, and this was the highlight of the evening for me, we played a little of my Onomatapeoia card game. My friend really dug it and that felt good. (remind me to send him a copy of the file when I'm done here) When she took me outside for the little powwow (yeah, I know that's not how it's spelled) most of it was her reassuring me that I was not the reason she had cancelled her game. I had already known this since it was already related to me from my friend through the wife that is was a combination of at least one of the other players (the player in question took the longest outside. gave us time for a couple hands) and my friend.

Aside: this past Thursday I get a call on the CallWave Internet Answering Machine, which I have set up so people can reach me since I'm perpetually on the internet. Actually it was two calls. The first call was from her on my friend's cell phone. The second call was from him, same cell phone, and it came in before I had finished listening to the first call. Her message was basically "call me when you get this" his message actually went into what the call was about (they were going to Syracuse to play pool and were inviting us to come with, in this case) This struck me as a fairly profound shapshot of their relationship, or at least the difficulties therein, especialy the difficulties they're having in the game. The difference is that my friend is aware of this in the game and makes an effort to back off. In daily life, such as when calling your internet junkie friend to invite him to go shoot pool, this is not always the case.

Before we actually started, she first divied up seeral responsibilities, such as keeping track of the party fund, writing down people we meet and such. This sort of thing is probably usuful in a killer GM D&D-style game, I guess. I don't know. My job is to keep track of the loot we get. Next, she had us rearrange our seating. I'm not sure why except that she put the two martial artist characters together, the two spellcasters together and so on. I don't see the point of this except that my friend is a spellcaster, and as author of the rules, he can help the other guy.

Then we actually started, and it started kind of like the Tunnels & Trolls Crusaders of Khazan computer game. For those who haven't played this game, let me say that is starts with a backstory, like many CRPGs of its day, and this day as well. But after six or seven screens it gets a little tedious so you're hitting the ENTER button in rapid sucession and the screens of text just keep coming, and coming, and coming...

Well, she wasn't quite that bad but it sure felt like it.

The gist: we work for some sorcerer type guy who is very old, hence very powerful, hence he has a lot of enemies. We are currently on some mission to take the body of one of his most trusted bodyguards back to his home town for burial.

Side note: when talking about this dead guy, she said we were all in awe of him because of such-n-such. I immediately thought of something in Sorcerer when it says that the GM should never say "You feel BLANK" because the emotional state is one of the few areas of the character where the player should have complete control. This was all backstory that was trying to get us moving, so I tried not to let it bother me, but it did.

But there's a snag, you see. The dead guy had some kind of curse or disease or something which requires us to shove some kind of magic berry down his throat every three days or else he'll rise and attack anyone nearby.

Now comes the twist. We were recently caught in a flash flood and we were only able to save a few items (as listed on our character sheets) the horse, cart, corpse and only three of those berries. That's nine days worth of not-coming-back-from-the-dead and we're a good ten days travel from our destination.

The rest of the evening was spent buying equipment. Fairly clever way around just sitting people down and having them select what equipment they have when they start because that can be boring page flipping and item naming and stuff and since the game had started proper, we could actually roleplay. Unfortunately, we didn't do much roleplaying. I didn't feel anything yet so I was just sitting there quietly the entire time, so we'll ignore my ass. The others got to interact with the lizardman barkeep who...talk...like...this... because the common tongue, or whatever, wasn't his first language. This struck me like Woody Allen's performance in Casino Royale where he played mute. Yes. That was entertaining. While eating dinner, we rolled a perception check to see why the floor was always so spotless (short lizardmen cleaned up the mud we tracked in). but then all pretense of roleplaying went out the window when we were buying our equipment and we were back to page flipping and item naming. She and my friend argued slightly here and there over the prices of things not on the list and the organization of the items list, which is exstensive IMO. I mean, prices for various spices? OK.

This is pretty much were we left it, some I'll relate so other things that happened.

She kept saying "I'm getting to that" when someone, namely my friend, asked a question. Actually she said it twice. The first time was during the set-up text when he asked how many berries we have and how far do we have to go, but this got answered a few paragraphs later, so that one can slide. The second time is when we finally got started and we entered town and we we looking for an inn. We find one, I guess (I'm a little hazy on this for some reason) He asks "is there a sign?" SHe goes "I'm getting to that." and then describes the sign. This bothers me because the very next thing she was going to do was describe the sign, so why say "I'm getting to that" in a somewhat ticked tone of voice like she did when you could simply answer the man's question since that's what you were going to do anyway. I'm not sure what this is indicative of, if you guys have any idea and/or advice for what to say so that she can run without getting snippy over minor crap like this, I'd be grateful.

The lizardman I mention earlier was bright yellow. This is apparently where our likes/dislikes list is supposed to kick in because, I guess, if yellow is our favorite color we'll like the lizardman and if we dislike yellow we'd hate him. Or something like this. Or such was the sense I got from her over the importance of the lizardman's skin color. Is this roleplaying? I must've missed this page in the handbook.

The most significant things that happened happened at the begining of the evening, such as the aforementioned card game. But before the GF arrived, my friend was asking me what was going on and what I did for fun. I wasn't saying much because, unfortunately, I was just being Jack. (I would tell him about stuff like this site, but I don't want him reading this thread and getting all mad and stuff) My wife, god bless her, mentioned that I was planning on running Sorcerer. So the cat's out of the bag. Well, sort of. It's out of the bag in such a way that is easy to put it back in again. Hopefully I won't. I'd better not.

After we got home, we talked about the game and I spent my time trying to explain to my wife why I wasn't very happy with this game and was looking forward to running Sorcerer more in spite of being terrified at being the GM. This past session wasn't anything to judge the game on because it was basically set-up for next time and us buying our equipment. But we talked about this and that. Actually I talked, she listened. I explained how I've been reading about this narrativist play and I want to see it because it sounds like much more fun that anyone had last night. I then got out my copy of Sorcerer and read to her the different ways to play: the "dungeon" way, the squad, the dumb way, and the hard way; and I asked her which way sounds like she'd want to play. She said the hard way. That's good. Having her on my side helps

Jack Spencer Jr wrote: Side note: when talking about this dead guy, she said we were all in awe of him because of such-n-such. I immediately thought of something in Sorcerer when it says that the GM should never say "You feel BLANK" because the emotional state is one of the few areas of the character where the player should have complete control.

Hi Raven,

Yeah, I figured as much but I guess the thing is, instead of...Jesus, I don't know. All I do know is I found the idea that we were all in awe of this guy was laughable to me. Respected, maybe. Heard about him and his great deeds, I'll buy that. Maybe even fought along side him, sure. But in awe? Which were her words. I can't help but think that I wouldn't have been thinking about that if she had somehow presented it just a little differently.

But you're right. Comparing this game to any other is like Charlie Manson taking Bible passages out of context. I think it was more a bit of free association on my part. I felt like that bit didn't work for me and I thought 'why isn't it working for me?' and I recalled that bit in Sorcerer and i was like "ah, that must be it' Maybe it was, but quite possibly it wasn't.

Hi Jack,

Get ready for the big plot twist where it turns out the dead guy's not really dead, the berries are keeping him in a death-mimicking state and the plan is to have him end up buried (and berried too) alive. Fortunately the berry-subtracting flash flood will give him a chance to recover and attack the escorts (that's you), setting up a big fight scene until the truth gets sorted out and you all realize it was a set-up...

This is just a guess (I'm not going on any knowledge here other than what you've written) but whether I'm right or wrong, you might want to ponder your options over at the Participationism thread.

- Walt

Hey Jack,

I've been keeping up with your situation in this thread and after reading Walt's post I find myself wondering why you should even play along at all.

You're not a person that is comfortable with conflict, thats fine, to each his own. But why not try some "subtle subversion" of the situation. Allow me to play devil's advocate here.

You've detailed the in-game situation of your character. As Walt points out there may be some twists and turns involved. Why not throw in a twist of your own and possibly bring both the in-game and out-of-game situations to a head.

First thing, make sure the dead guy doesn't get any berries. If you think you can convince the other players to go along, all the better. Regardless, destroy or hide the berries. If anyone gives you attitude tell them that your character is so in AWE of this guy that you think meeting him would be a high honor. But this is only a cover for your character's real motivation. Since you've been criticized for not fleshing out your character take the opportunity to flesh him out now. Make him a member of a secret cult bent on... something, you pick. Anyway, the cult thinks that unleashing the cursed dead guy on the world would somehow promote their objectives and you're their man on the scene.

When the dead guy starts walkin you may have some more options open. If he does proceed to try and cut everyone down either run off into the woods or jump in and help dead guy. Either way, if you survive, the cult will probably give you a promotion.

Now, normally this would be considered "troublesome player" behavior, but considering how screwed up your situation apparently is I would call it a "survival adaptation". Not only is this an elegant criticism of GM techniques and the game in general but will hopefully result in everything coming to a head. If things go really well there might even be yelling and spilled Mt. Dew.

The whole point is to force others to start a confrontation so you don't have to, and air out all the crap you people haven't been talking to each other about. Get it all out of the way so you can behave like reasonably sane people again. If everyone is still speaking to each other afterwards maybe you can game together again.

Or... you can just speak up about everything you've been posting about and discuss it with these people like an adult. Whether they will act maturely is irrelevant, at least you will be.

Or... you can just not game with these people again.

But... what you can't do is go on in this same situation week after week. You're miserable, and they don't sound like they're having that much fun either.

Edited in: Oh yeah, if the guy does end up really being alive like Walt theorizes than by destroying the berries you've managed to skip all the drudgery and have probably pissed in your GM's cornflakes in the process. Sounds like a win-win to me.

Free advice-Not a therapist. You know the drill.

-Chris

Hello, Jack, a question if I may?

Are you certain that these things that you've suggested do not have an automatic strike against them because YOU are the one who has suggested them?

I do not like Titanic because I do not like Leonardo DiCaprio. However, if someone I was friends with handed me a copy of the movie and asked me to watch it, I would do it because my friend had asked me to give it a chance. I've seen Sorcerer on the shelves at my local gaming shop, and while I wouldn't shell out the 40+ bucks to buy it, if a friend brought it to the gaming table, or gave it to me to look at, I would honestly give it a chance.

I guess I'm just wondering if this friend doesn't have some issues with you. Maybe he doesn't even realize it.

Well, I don't agree with Chris's advice. However, should you wish to try going this route in a lower key (less in-your-face) way, you can suggest to the group that the most prudent course of action would be to tie the corpse very thoroughly (gagged and blindfolded as well) to a very large tree before the last berry runs out, with plenty of whatever your mythos prescribes for destroying the undead on hand. If the corpse "comes alive" you can try to talk to it, instructing it to answer questions yes or no by nodding its head.

If my experience with this sort of GM is any guide, this won't do you any good. Either you'll be told that your character respects the dead man too much to even consider treating his corpse in such a manner, or the ropes will miraculously break at the key moment (possibly with the explanation that the player chracters failed to secure him tightly enough, despite whatever in-character skill and narrated procedural detail you might have applied). On the other hand, the GM would have no reason to resent your attempt (after all, your characters have ample warning about what's supposed to happen), and might learn something in the process (e.g. that player characters given little or no investment in the story cannot be expected to be passive just to follow a dramatic arc; when they see impending disaster they prefer to take action to forestall it). I've seen GMs learn to be much better GMs through experiences of this type. It doesn't always happen, but it can.

- Walt

kevin671 wrote: Hello, Jack, a question if I may?

Are you certain that these things that you've suggested do not have an automatic strike against them because YOU are the one who has suggested them?

I do not like Titanic because I do not like Leonardo DiCaprio. However, if someone I was friends with handed me a copy of the movie and asked me to watch it, I would do it because my friend had asked me to give it a chance. I've seen Sorcerer on the shelves at my local gaming shop, and while I wouldn't shell out the 40+ bucks to buy it, if a friend brought it to the gaming table, or gave it to me to look at, I would honestly give it a chance.

I guess I'm just wondering if this friend doesn't have some issues with you. Maybe he doesn't even realize it.

Please never say anything bad about Fargo ever again.

:)

Anyway, how long is the campaign? If you just grin and bare it for 4 weeks and try and run with, then when you run your own campaign, you will have willing players.

If a narratavist style is everything your group never knew it wanted, then they'll be converted without any need to subvert the current campaign. If you are disruptive and sulky in this campaign, then they will be just the same in yours, and your campaign will have chance.

But most importantly, never say anything bad about Fargo ever again.

Jeremy

See Jack, that's exactly my point. It's not the game at all. He's just got this idea into his head that a certain game/genre/idea/whatever sux. Of course he's gonna side with the girlfriend, because she's probably giving him something that you don't even wanna think about. It doesn't really matter that his girlfriend has the wiccan/occult books you were mentioning and reads them. He doesn't see that. He ignores it. The fact is that (Speaking as "Ted" here) Sorcerer Sux. Period. The genre is crap. The theme is crap. Whatever it is that "Ted" does not like about Sorcerer makes it suck. His problem with Sorcerer, (or with anything else) is that his own maturity level is such that he refuses to accept anything that anyone else suggests (except the girlfriend, for reasons already discussed) simply because he didn't think of it first. If he had discovered Sorcerer or the Titanic (because the girlfriend [Lets call her "Susan"] had MADE him watch it) before anyone else suggested it they probably would be pretty cool with him. People like this can be cool to hang out with, but if ya wanna play Sorcerer you'll need to find someone who'll run it. On the flip side, it could also be the "Yet another gaming system" syndrome. I know that personally I've learned so many different game systems that I have trouble keeping them all straight at times. Lets see, whats on the shelf right now....hmm....bunch o' D20 (Spycraft, DnD, SWRPG and a few others) RTG's Cyberpunk and Mekton Zeta. Also, RTG's Bubblegum Crisis, Champions The New Millenium and Armored Trooper VOTOMS, whole whack of Palladium's Rifts and the older Robotech stuff. Revised Recon. White Wolf's Rage The Apocalypse, Mage The Acension, Vampire, and Wraith The Oblivion as well as numerous sourcebooks for each, SLA Industries, some Battletech stuff, WEG's SWRPG stuff, as well as a a whole bunch of single book indie RPGs. I figure I have close to 40 different game systems represented on the shelf I'm looking at, and I've played them all. I tend to be leery whenever anyone tries to introduce me into a new system I've never played before. Maybe "Ted" and "Susan" are going through something similar.

kevin671 wrote: I've seen Sorcerer on the shelves at my local gaming shop, and while I wouldn't shell out the 40+ bucks to buy it...

Hey, Raven.

Legally, I think that there's nothing against someone charging $40 for Sorcerer. That may be why it's called a manufacturer's suggested retail price instead of a manufacturer's legally binding retail price. But a store owner would either need to have (or think they have) a deathgrip on the local market to double the MSRP or just plain be an idiot. Why would anyone pay $40 for something you can get for $20? That's the invisible hand of capitolism.

Personally, I think Kevin might be confusing Sorcerer with the suppliment for Mage from White Wolf that is also called Sorcerer. He can tell us if he wants, I guess.


Hi kevin.

Funny thing about the Yet Another Game Syndrome is that they are making yet another game, pretty much in the sense I ranted about in an article over at Places to Go, People to Be. (see issue #22)

I have YAGS but it tends to be about yet another game that works, more or less, like any other game. WHich is the attraction of something like Sorcerer and this Narrativist stuff in general.

He may be (correct me if I'm wrong) referring to the cost of the rulebook and the two supplements.

If this is the case, then that would be among the best $40 you've ever spent. I know it was for me. In fact, after buying the game, I bought copies of each book for my brother (still trying to get him to play).

Leave it to Ron to tell us all "You don't need supplements to run a good game" and then turn around and come up with supplements for his game that are so good that you do actually need them at the table. :)

-- Ben

Actually, he (I) was referring to the cover price in good ol' Canada. Home of the 50 cent dollar. Arguements about capitolism aside, I would prefer not to shell out anything on a gaming system that just doesn't "do it" for me. That said, if my gaming group gets into it, I'll play, and enjoy it. If I enjoy the game enough, I may end up owning a copy. I have nothing against the game or the system in particular, it just doesn't catch my eye as something that I would go out of my way to play.

You don't need the supplements for Sorceror to run it at all. Personally I like Sorceror and Sword tremendously, Soul I've found personally less use. They're both great supplements but neither is necessary.

It's more like the Chaosium approach with Call of Cthulhu. Buy the core book and you need never make another purchase for years of gaming. But, the quality of the supplements is so good that you buy them anyway because they add so much value.

An approach I heartily approve of and wish more ("cough, AEG, Cough") publishers would follow.

Hello,

Thanks for all the kind words, folks, but I think it's time for this thread either to get back on topic or to lay down it's li'l head for the Big Sleep.

Best,
Ron

Hey Jack

I really hate to say this because it sounds like I'm dumping on ya, but...

Get a grip, dude.

You've got over two pages of complaints about your gaming group here. That's a lot of typing. Can you redirect any of that energy into civil conversations with the people who are actually contributing to your problems?

You're calling these people your friends. If you can't tell your friends directly, "I'm unhappy, and I'd like your help to be a happier person," what kind of friend are you?

And if they're unwilling to help you, either by accomodating you or letting you leave with dignity, what kind of friends are they?

Incidentally, I'm a sheep myself, most of the time. I get dissatisfied with the direction my gaming group(s) take, more often than not. I own way too many game systems. (See my Going Native thread in this forum.) But dang it, you've just got to bite the bullet and take action once in a while instead of just moaning about it.

I'm still learning how. :) -- It's been nearly a month since I've impulse-bought any gaming materials. Yay!

Hi Rumble,

In Jack's defense, according to him in some private dialogue, that's exactly what he's decided to do, in addition to laying off this or a similar thread for a while.

Hope it's OK that I said that, Jack.

Best,
Ron

No, That's fine, Ron. But I do have one last update:

Last week my old IBM Aptiva finally died (P 75 MHz Win 95) which is why I haven't been around for a while. I finally scrapped the cash together to get a new computer that just might run Atari ROMs at the correct speed.

But, In any case, what's going on right now is my marriage came within a hair's breath of disintigrating over various issues. One of the results of talking this out is that I simply do not enjoy playing RPGs anymore.

I think I'm just in bad need of a break, in spite of the fact that I didn't play that much in the last four years or so. So, I won't be around all that much for a while. Maybe I'll come someday. But not right now.

I'd like to take a moment to thank everyone who actually took the time to listen to what was essentially just me bitching about my life and even provide thoughtful comments.

Later.