Topic: Advancement vs. Development
Started by: Ben Morgan
Started on: 8/30/2002
Board: Indie Game Design
On 8/30/2002 at 8:06pm, Ben Morgan wrote:
Advancement vs. Development
I'm starting this thread in order to avoid hijacking Pale Fire's Level thread, but it relates to the whole idea of levels, experience, and advancement.
I have part of a system I'm working on that addresses the issue of character development without it becoming specifically character advancement (at least, that's my intention).
The whole system is tied into a part of the character that for lack of a better term, is called Events. When you create your character, you allocate points to attributes, then pick skills and allocate points to them, very similar to Donjon (I might simplify the whole Attribute/Skill thing, if it proves to be redundant). Then, you allocate a certain amount of points to Events, which fall into three categories: Past, present, and Future.
Past events are things you've done, or things that have happened to you. Each of these events could conceivably be viewed as a "character level", if you really wanted to look at it that way. These are significant junctures in your character's life, such as "learned Kung Fu Death Touch from Master Hong", or "spent 5 years as a pit fighter", or "got in trouble with local thieves' guild" . Past events sorta resemble Lifepath from Cyberpunk.
Present events are things which are happening now. This would be stuff like "looking for the guy that killed my father". In this way, they can kinda-sorta-almost resemble Kickers, though probably not in all ways.
Future events represent things which your character is destined to accomplish, or things which are fated to happen. This is sorta like Destiny from &Sword.
The development system arises from these events (bear with me here). At CC, you gain Ability points equal to the number of points allocated to Past events, you gain Destiny points equal to the number of points allocated to Future events, and for lack of a better idea, you gain Cool points equal to the number of points allocated to Present events. The number of points allocated to an event is supposed to reflect the general level of conflict or adversity the character will face in attempting to resolve the event (for Present & Future events), or the significance of the event (Past events).
To say that Ability points are used to buy new skills, or raise current ones, is oversimplifying the issue. When you spend Ability points, you are not necessarily learning new skills, but are instead bringing previously known but not relevant skills to the foreground. Ability points can be spent at any time, even in the middle of a conflict. This allows situations like "We're going down, and the pilot's dead! Does anyone here know how to fly a plane? *scritch, scritch* "Yes, I do!" to occur in-game. I have yet to come up with some sort of limiting mechanic for this, other than requiring to list several skills at CC that your character specifically does *not* possess (which does not necessarily preclude the option to actually learn these skills at a later time). I'd like some kind of system to account for situations like "well, if you could have reprogrammed the computer all along, why didn't do do it before?" kind of things. You gain more Ability points by resolving Present events, at which point they become Past events (implementing the whole "reward the kind of behavior you want to see happen" line of thinking, because I want to reward the players for actually doing stuff).
You gain more Present events through in-game actions. If a current subplot is deemed by the GM (or possibly the group) to be of sufficient significance, it then becomes quantified as an event, with the number assigned to it, again representing the general difficulty level of resolving it.
At the moment, Destiny points are used on a completely metagame level. The spending of Destiny points allows you to maipulate an in-game situation, or even introduce a new situation, to specifically steer the character toward one of their Future events. Again, I have yet to come up with a sufficiently elegant limiting mechanic for this. You can more Destiny points by acquiring new Future events through in-game actions.
Cool points are an idea ripped directly from both Sorcerer and 7th Sea. They are points that you can spend at any time to increase the chance of success on a given roll. other than CC, the main way you get more Cool points is to do something, well, cool; whether that's using an appropriately witty line at the right moment, or an especially inspired use of directorial power (another instance of rewarding desired behavior).
I'm also playing with the idea of being able to use the level of an event as a bonus of some kind to a related roll, but I'm not sure.
I'm posting this here becaue, while it's certainly not the first of its kind, I like to think that it's an innovative alternative to the whole idea of Experience Points, and the way they are usually thought of.
The idea behind this system is to develop it first for use as a fantasy game. I also have aspirations of eventually adapting it for a cyberpunk setting as well (with the removal of Future events and Destiny points; because in cyberpunk, you have no future).
-- Ben
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On 8/30/2002 at 8:51pm, Mike Holmes wrote:
RE: Advancement vs. Development
Very cool Ben. The use of Ability points reminds me of how things emerge in Universalis.
Question? What happens if I ask "Can anybody fly this plane?" and two players cough up Ability points? I think that it would be much cooler if only one player would get the skill. Much more protagonizing for that character. but which one gets it? The one who speaks up fastest? I suppose that would keep things fair. Die roll if the GM can't decide who said it first? Or do they both just get it? Do they discuss?
Can Ability points be spent in the normal fashion? That is, can I spend time training if I have time, and therefore gain an ability not explained as being from my past? Having both methods available would probably make the most internally consistent sense, I'd think. I am making the assumption that you gain these points over time.
What do you get Ability points for? What do you get destiny points for?
Mike
On 8/30/2002 at 9:38pm, Ben Morgan wrote:
RE: Advancement vs. Development
Question? What happens if I ask "Can anybody fly this plane?" and two players cough up Ability points? I think that it would be much cooler if only one player would get the skill. Much more protagonizing for that character. but which one gets it? The one who speaks up fastest? I suppose that would keep things fair. Die roll if the GM can't decide who said it first? Or do they both just get it? Do they discuss?
This is one of the things I am still debating in my head. In the end, it might be as simple as an OOC negotiation between players and/or GM. I was also kicking around the idea of making a player roll whatever attribute was relevant to see if they get to spend the points on the skill (the difficulty determined in some way by how many points they want to spend), but I'm not sure about that yet.
Can Ability points be spent in the normal fashion? That is, can I spend time training if I have time, and therefore gain an ability not explained as being from my past? Having both methods available would probably make the most internally consistent sense, I'd think. I am making the assumption that you gain these points over time.
I have no problem with people using Ability points to raise an existing skill (depending on the tone of the game, you could even do a cheesy training montage), or even using them to raise an attribute, but I would make it clear that this was not my primary intention.
-- Ben
On 8/30/2002 at 9:41pm, Le Joueur wrote:
Comparing Systems
Hey Ben
That's an amazing post. (No really, I 'bin thinking' along these lines for a long time.) Let's compare notes....
Amazing Kreskin wrote: I'm starting this thread...it relates to the whole idea of levels, experience, and advancement.
I have part of a system I'm working on that addresses the issue of character development without it becoming specifically character advancement (at least, that's my intention).
Us too. We've been calling it 'evolution' for some reason. In playtest, having a point-based system with no limits on starting point level creates a situation where little if any 'advancement' is needed.
Amazing Kreskin wrote: The whole system is tied into a part of the character that for lack of a better term, is called Events. When you create your character, you allocate points to attributes, then pick skills and allocate points to them, very similar to Donjon (I might simplify the whole Attribute/Skill thing, if it proves to be redundant). Then, you allocate a certain amount of points to Events, which fall into three categories: Past, present, and Future.
Past events are things you've done, or things that have happened to you. Each of these events could conceivably be viewed as a "character level", if you really wanted to look at it that way. These are significant junctures in your character's life, such as "learned Kung Fu Death Touch from Master Hong", or "spent 5 years as a pit fighter", or "got in trouble with local thieves' guild". Past events sorta resemble Lifepath from Cyberpunk.
Present events are things which are happening now. This would be stuff like "looking for the guy that killed my father". In this way, they can kinda-sorta-almost resemble Kickers, though probably not in all ways.
Future events represent things which your character is destined to accomplish, or things which are fated to happen. This is sorta like Destiny from &Sword.
We've got something like this as well. "Past Events," since they're so telling, are converted to things that points get spent on, like advantages and disadvantages. (Have you considered "Past Events" that 'take something away' from a character?) Another type of "Past Events" are something we call 'Origin.' The Origin is the events which made the character what they are today, in terms of pertinent abilities and characteristics.
In some ways the 'Design in Play' (DiP) stuff we're struggling with right now relates to this too. It is supposed to allow people to 'add' "Past Events" during play; a little like the revelations that go on constantly throughout a Soap Opera. (Another analogy to "Past Events" as advantages and disadvantages is how the 'lifepath' stuff in Mekton II worked. Since we're coming out with a 'Giant Robots' supplement, we'll be aping that kinda thing too.)
For "Present Events," we use something I've been fond of since my University days. We call it the 'Precipitating Event;' this is the 'thing' that gets the character into the 'cycle' which makes up the game. And yes, I've been grumbling for some time about how much Kickers resemble them. We also incorporate something we haven't come up with a term for yet; highly dependant on what the player desires for the play of the game (his Approach to gaming), it's like what the player wants for the character regardless of the character's plans.
We recently minted what we have for "Future Events;" I've been trying to wrestle the whole idea of Genre Expectations into a form where you can not only have 'global' expectations for the whole game, but 'local' expectations for just your character, like a destiny or fate (fairly meta-game in that the player participates in causing them, even the character would rather something else). (I don't have Sorcerer & Sword so I cannot comment on "Destiny.")
Amazing Kreskin wrote: The development system arises from these events (bear with me here). At CC, you gain Ability points equal to the number of points allocated to Past events, you gain Destiny points equal to the number of points allocated to Future events, and for lack of a better idea, you gain Cool points equal to the number of points allocated to Present events. The number of points allocated to an event is supposed to reflect the general level of conflict or adversity the character will face in attempting to resolve the event (for Present & Future events), or the significance of the event (Past events).
To say that Ability points are used to buy new skills, or raise current ones, is oversimplifying the issue. When you spend Ability points, you are not necessarily learning new skills, but are instead bringing previously known but not relevant skills to the foreground....
I'd like some kind of system to account for situations like "well, if you could have reprogrammed the computer all along, why didn't do do it before?" kind of things.
You gain more Ability points by resolving Present events, at which point they become Past events (implementing the whole "reward the kind of behavior you want to see happen" line of thinking, because I want to reward the players for actually doing stuff).
We're wrestling with the exact same problem. You see, to moderate the whole 'hidden talents' thing I came up with the Sine Qua Non thing. It kinda limits what 'hidden talents' you can suddenly realize and it also evolves with the character; which goes back to the DiP issue that this screams about.
One thing I do worry about is the complexity of having three different kinds of points to keep track of, that all do different things. Our solution was to simplify; everything works on an instantaneous rewards system based on Experience Dice. You do something cool; someone gives you some Experience Dice. You make your character suffer from the disadvantages; you get some Experience Dice. You make use of an advantage to do something; you can free Experience Dice for that one 'action.' You move your character one noticeable step towards their 'destiny;' you get Experience Dice. (In playtest, it's turned out to be so popular that players have been taking extra disadvantages so they can 'pump up' their Experience Dice pool whenever they need to.) Also, when a player wants to do a power-up (outside of the 'hidden talent' thing; I did say we were struggling with it), they have to gamble Experience Dice to make it happen.
What that doesn't give is Experience Dice for resolving the circumstances relating to a character's Precipitating Event. I appreciate how traditional giving Out-of-Character (OoC) rewards for In-Character (IC) success is, but we decided to limit those rewards to IC rewards (plus the acquisition of new advantages and disadvantages; see our DiP struggles). Every designer has a different opinion on this one.
Amazing Kreskin wrote: At the moment, Destiny points are used on a completely meta-game level. The spending of Destiny points allows you to manipulate an in-game situation, or even introduce a new situation, to specifically steer the character toward one of their Future events. Again, I have yet to come up with a sufficiently elegant limiting mechanic for this. You can more Destiny points by acquiring new Future events through in-game actions.
With personal Genre Expectations, whenever you work towards them, you add to your Experience Dice. Like the Sine Qua Non, they can be 'evolved' as the need suits. What this does, rather than making the player the watchdog of the Destiny, it rewards him simply for trying. This prevents situations where the player's "Destiny Points" become useless because the game makes the Destiny impossible.
Amazing Kreskin wrote: Cool points are an idea ripped directly from both Sorcerer and 7th Sea. They are points that you can spend at any time to increase the chance of success on a given roll. other than CC, the main way you get more Cool points is to do something, well, cool; whether that's using an appropriately witty line at the right moment, or an especially inspired use of directorial power (another instance of rewarding desired behavior).
This is almost exactly what Experience Dice are. The only difference is that you can't count on a specific impact, using your Experience Dice is always a gamble. (And you can use them to decrease the chances of not only your own, but anyone's rolls.)
Amazing Kreskin wrote: I'm posting this here because, while it's certainly not the first of its kind, I like to think that it's an innovative alternative to the whole idea of Experience Points, and the way they are usually thought of.
It is; it is, I've never seen anything like this (or what we have) all in one package. I mean, sure their there in Cyberpunk, Sorcerer, and Sorcerer & Sword, but not all three in one.
Very cool.
Fang Langford
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On 8/31/2002 at 5:07am, Ben Morgan wrote:
RE: Advancement vs. Development
We've got something like this as well. "Past Events," since they're so telling, are converted to things that points get spent on, like advantages and disadvantages. (Have you considered "Past Events" that 'take something away' from a character?)
That's actually an great idea. Because then, skills become merely another advantage.
I actually made a significant rules change for a Vampire game I'm being pressured into running (not that I don't want to run it, I'd just really play with some of my new toys, like any of the stuff form here). Both Merits AND Flaws now cost you Freebie points to buy. I got the idea from your Disadvantages thread, and a thread that I kinda casually perused a couple of months ago on Usenet about buying advantages and disadvantages based not on how they affect the character's effectiveness, but how they affect the player's "screentime".
Instead of Ads/Disads, I'm trying to come up with a more generic name that covers both, unfortunately, Traits has been used everywhere else -- Vampire (sorta), The Pool. Qualities? WitchCraft (and AllFlesh & Buffy as well). Characteristics? Used somewhere, I can't remember where. I don't know.
It is; it is, I've never seen anything like this (or what we have) all in one package. I mean, sure their there in Cyberpunk, Sorcerer, and Sorcerer & Sword, but not all three in one.
&Sword hints at all three; it's got Kickers and Destiny, but also allows for multiple Past descriptors & scores (which is it's version of the Cover score), which is almost what I'm looking for.
On 8/31/2002 at 4:13pm, Le Joueur wrote:
Characteristics?
Amazing Kreskin wrote:Le Joueur wrote: We've got something like this as well. "Past Events," since they're so telling, are converted to things that points get spent on, like advantages and disadvantages. (Have you considered "Past Events" that 'take something away' from a character?)
That's actually an great idea. Because then, skills become merely another advantage.
Thanks, but actually everything (and I do mean everything) in Scattershot ultimately breaks down to numerically rated abilities with short-term bennies. A stat works like a skill works like a superpower works like a spell; situations, just like advantages and disadvantages, occassionally pump or hinder the rolls you make. (The only difference is that a stat is something everyone has on their character sheet, a skill is an optional ability anyone can take without much justification, and everything else is optional and calls for some kind of Origin to justify.)
Either way works fine, they're just inherently different.
Amazing Kreskin wrote: Instead of Ads/Disads, I'm trying to come up with a more generic name that covers both, unfortunately, Traits has been used everywhere else -- Vampire (sorta), The Pool. Qualities? WitchCraft (and AllFlesh & Buffy as well).
My favorite term? Character. These are things that give your persona, well...character. That can lead to them being called characteristics. We chose advantages and disadvantages because of my "lurking desire" to have everything in my game look "accessible specifically to the old-school gamer, in a deliberate 70s-gaming kind of structure," to quote Ron Edwards.
You might also consider how they relate to the skills which you indicate are nothing more than another advantage. Use a word meaning all of those.
Fang Langford
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On 8/31/2002 at 7:46pm, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: Advancement vs. Development
Hi guys,
Ben, Hero Wars solved all of these issues brilliantly. I strongly recommend reading and playing it as much as possible.
Best,
Ron
On 8/31/2002 at 11:46pm, Ben Morgan wrote:
RE: Advancement vs. Development
I've got the main book, but haven't had time to read through it thoroughly yet.