Topic: The Riddle of Steel, SMG's and lasers
Started by: Mokkurkalfe
Started on: 9/15/2002
Board: The Riddle of Steel
On 9/15/2002 at 12:19pm, Mokkurkalfe wrote:
The Riddle of Steel, SMG's and lasers
I'm planning to run an X-COMish (a computer game) game with tRoS rules. The lethal feel of tRoS should fit well here.
For guns I'll just use the missile weapon system, but how should I take care of automatic fire?
I'm thinking of something along the lines of lowering the ATN(easier to hit) and increasing the chock(more lead) and Bloodloss(more holes).
I also want to simulate recoil somehow, especially since there might be recoilless laser weapons.
Another topic is armor. A weapons ability to penetrate shouldn't be decided by the MoS. Doesn't make sense with firearms. Perhaps a Penetration value that lowers when the ATN for range rises?
Or am I totally off track?
Right now the weapon damage ratings are:
Pistols and SMG's 4-5p
rifle calibres 6-8p
Machinegun 7-8p
Sniper rifles and BIG hunting rifles 9p
Hand-held cannon 10p
Laser weapons 5-10p
Plasma weapons(the aliens' weapons) 6-12c
Laser and plasma weapons will have very little BL(very hot) and lasers will have very little shock.
Plasma gets cutting damage cuz' that way plasma can decapitate and disembowel.
Cannons and other explosives will have lots o' chock and BL bonuses
Thoughts? Advice? Anything?
On 9/15/2002 at 12:23pm, Shadeling wrote:
RE: The Riddle of Steel, SMG's and lasers
I think a little from column A) a little from B) =) Actually MoS should help... kinda like getting that shot in the right place... But have flat Damage ratings for the gun or ammunition type, ya know. So add your MoS to Damage, like existing rules. But you could also have rules like certain weapons do well against certain armors... Anyway, just my thoughts and rants.
On 9/15/2002 at 2:06pm, Sneaky Git wrote:
Re: The Riddle of Steel, SMG's and lasers
Mokkurkalfe wrote: but how should I take care of automatic fire?
I'm thinking of something along the lines of lowering the ATN(easier to hit) and increasing the chock(more lead) and Bloodloss(more holes).
Are you talking about full automatic fire? Or controlled bursts (3-5 rounds for each pull of the trigger)? The reason that I ask is that full auto is truly only good for two things: making the bad guys keep their heads down and emptying your magazine. As a result, nearly all modern assault rifles and SMGs have a selector switch allowing them to be set to at different rates of fire. The result is that recoil, honestly, doesn't play that much of a role. Sure, it's there, but soldiers are trained to account for it.. and a 3-round burst (of M-16A2 fame) does not generate enough energy to cause problems for the shooter.
As a result, I'd decrease the ATN of a weapon making use of short, controlled bursts, but not touch the resulting damage. Sure, you're putting more shells downrange, but not necessarily guaranteeing a greater number of good hits. Aiming, however, should still be allowed(single shots are even better.. one aimed shot may not kill, but it typically incapacitates).
As for full auto.. a flat ATN is probably more appropriate. And one that is actually higher than single shot or controlled burst.
Hmm... Let me think on this some more.
On 9/15/2002 at 3:10pm, Mokkurkalfe wrote:
RE: The Riddle of Steel, SMG's and lasers
Shadeling:
I will have flat damage ratings for different weapons(well, calibres actually), that table is just a little too grainy to show.
MoS should help to certain degree, yes. It's just that some weapons just won't penetrate certain armor. Impossible.
Sneaky Git:
I'm talking about both full automatic fire and bursts.
Perhaps I'll just give weapons with higher recoil(e.g. hand-held cannon) a higher ATN, unless on a tripod.
The flat ATN for full automatic is a good idea.
Actually, full auto is also useful when you bump into the armed and armoured equivalent of a gol captain.
On 9/16/2002 at 5:48am, Thirsty Viking wrote:
RE: Re: The Riddle of Steel, SMG's and lasers
Mokkurkalfe wrote: I'm planning to run an X-COMish (a computer game) game with tRoS rules. The lethal feel of tRoS should fit well here.
For guns I'll just use the missile weapon system, but how should I take care of automatic fire?
I'm thinking of something along the lines of lowering the ATN(easier to hit) and increasing the chock(more lead) and Bloodloss(more holes).
I also want to simulate recoil somehow, especially since there might be recoilless laser weapons.
Another topic is armor. A weapons ability to penetrate shouldn't be decided by the MoS. Doesn't make sense with firearms. Perhaps a Penetration value that lowers when the ATN for range rises?
Or am I totally off track?
Right now the weapon damage ratings are:
Pistols and SMG's 4-5p
rifle calibres 6-8p
Machinegun 7-8p
Sniper rifles and BIG hunting rifles 9p
Hand-held cannon 10p
Laser weapons 5-10p
Plasma weapons(the aliens' weapons) 6-12c
Laser and plasma weapons will have very little BL(very hot) and lasers will have very little shock.
Plasma gets cutting damage cuz' that way plasma can decapitate and disembowel.
Cannons and other explosives will have lots o' chock and BL bonuses
Thoughts? Advice? Anything?
Thoughts, First you are asking for a section as large as our current combat section to address these issues. (at least) this is why I think Black Powder was left out of TRoS.
Range modifiers use small increments for pistols and shotguns. large ones for rifles,
Scoped rifles apply a -TN modifier based on the scope.
Rifles have differing range increments. as an example an M16 probably has a TN of 12 at 300 yards.
Ignore the Margin of succes when using burst fireor automatic fire(see below for thier efffects)).
Unless stated other wise with MoS modifiers, all attacks are aimed at body. Attacks to Head or extremities should be at +TN and - MP.
Shot guns have lowest starting target number.
Semi-automatic weapons can fired each roung at base MP refresh rate - recoil modifier
Burst mode will have higher recoil than non burst, role for each bullet with penalties on 2nd and 3rd rolls, or set in creasing threshholds for the hit... ex. three round burst, 1 success = 1 hit ... 3 success = 2 hits ... 6 success = 3 hits
Use the MP refresh rules to simulate recoil. do this by penalizing the refresh rate on the round after firing. Recoiless weapons refresh normally. Many of the best sniper weapons have to be reloaded for a round before firing.
In general the more damage a bullet does when it hits, the more recoile.
Bullet proof vests convert damage to blunt as well as reducing level.
different Ammo loads modify the type of damage done by a Weapon, and it's recoil
Bulets are generally blunt but the piercing damage is the best similation Blunt bulets are stopped by a Bullet proof vest.
A BP Vest will nullify 2/3 damage level of a bullet and all damage will be bruising. Unless the bullet is AP in which case they are treated to maintain shape and penatrate an BP vest.... These do less damage when they hit unless the strike a vital organ.
some bullets are designed to shatter on impact doing multiple wounds at a lower damage level than the standard round. Or to tumble doing greator pain and shock and BL but at a lower DL
PLASMA weapons are very high recoil.
Rifles don't necessarily do more damage than a pistol they are more accurate at range though.
An M16 does LESS damage than most pistols... It's a .22 caliber rifle designed to be light weight, low recoil, and accurate. OTOH it requires a relatively high level of field maintenance. An AK47 does more damage is heavier and has more recoil, OTOH it is almost peasant proof and will generally continue to function correctly as long as the muzzle isn't plugged. The AK47 can use the same round as 7.62 mm machine gun as opposed to 4.63 mm M16 IIRC
Machine guns on full AUTO are Very accurate if mounted on a stationary tripod/bipod. A skilled user can hit multiple targets multiple times a round if they are close together by walking his fire across them... this does use a lot of ammo, not effective if weapon is used without the bipod/tripod. This is why the troops were massacred so often in charges in WW1 trench warfare. Roll his Full MP Each round he fires in this situation TN 5... this is how many bullets he hits with if targets are close together. (for this purpose hold your hand stright out in front of you shoulder wide.. use this to approximate the arc of fire each rd) If weapon is vehicle mounted and vehicle is moving raise the TN. If he ambushes units Standing in formation use MP*2 dice on the first round to determin how many were hit.
use burst rules at TN+2 to spray automatic fire at three tagets from a fully automatic hand held weapon.
The actuall charts and tables for al this should keep you quite busy.... my suggestion.. use about 5 weapons total to start with, add 1-2 weapons a week. As players advocate for thier favorite, or weapons are captured from the aliens,
Last thought Most rounds in modern warefare are fired in Supressive fire... shots that cost an enemy CP because he can't aim well while being shot at. As for how to implemnt all this stuf ....
Good luck.
On 9/16/2002 at 12:39pm, Sneaky Git wrote:
RE: Re: The Riddle of Steel, SMG's and lasers
My apologies for the semi-rant nature of what follows..
Thirsty Viking wrote:
Rifles have differing range increments. as an example an M16 probably has a TN of 12 at 300 yards.
That TN is overly harsh for a trained rifleman. Max effective range for the M16A2 against point targets is 550 meters, and 800 meters for area targets.
Thirsty Viking wrote: Use the MP refresh rules to simulate recoil. do this by penalizing the refresh rate on the round after firing. Recoiless weapons refresh normally..
This could work. It's a good way to simulate recoil.. so long as the shooter fires more than once.
Thirsty Viking wrote: Bullet proof vests convert damage to blunt as well as reducing level.
Exactly. And the damage is certainly greater the closer you get.. Also, don't forget that so-called "bullet-proof" vests aren't. They are only designed to stop low velocity projectiles.. or high velocity rounds at range.
Thirsty Viking wrote: An M16 does LESS damage than most pistols... It's a .22 caliber rifle designed to be light weight, low recoil, and accurate. OTOH it requires a relatively high level of field maintenance. An AK47 does more damage is heavier and has more recoil, OTOH it is almost peasant proof and will generally continue to function correctly as long as the muzzle isn't plugged. The AK47 can use the same round as 7.62 mm machine gun as opposed to 4.63 mm M16.
This info is not only dated, but in some cases, I'm sorry to say, plain wrong. True, the original M16 required a ton of maintenance.. but this, however, is a Vietnam-era assault rifle. It required maintenance because the smokeless powder the US Army purchased was a nasty mess that resulted in misfires and "jams" unless one was religious about keeping their weapon clean. It is a common misconception that the humid climate and difficult terrain caused this.. but it is a misconception. Once the US Army made a couple of minor changes, and switched powder, the M16's notorious jamming difficulties ceased. The M16A2, an evolution of the M16 and M16A1, is one of the most reliable assault rifles in the world.
True, the actual projectile fired by the M16A2 is small (basically a .223)(it is a 5.56mm standard NATO round.. and not 4.63mm) when compared to the standard for most pistols, 9mm, but to make claims that it is therefore less powerful than a pistol round is stunningly wrong. The M16A2 has a muzzle velocity (the speed at which the round exits the weapon) of roughly 850 meters/second. By comparison, a standard 9mm pistol (M9)
has a muzzle velocity of only 365 m/s. Muzzle velocity is the primary determinant when one is looking at stopping power (Here's another "for example"... a .38 and a .357. Which is bigger? The .38. Which is more powerful? The .357. Why? Becuase of the amount of powder propelling the round out of the chamber.). The AK47, BTW, has a muzzle velocity of 700m/s.
Remember, the goal is to kill the enemy. If a pistol round was better at it, frontline combat troops would all be carrying SMGs (most use pistol rounds, or "short" rifle rounds). It is just that they lack the range and stopping power of assault rifles.
As for exchanging rounds between weapons, the M16A2 uses the same round as the M249 SAW (the standard squad-level machinegun for both the US Army and USMC). The M240G (replaced the M60) fires a 7.62mm round, but is used at the platoon and company level. The AK47, OTOH, fires a 7.62x39mm round that is compatible with Russian/Soviet weapons, but not NATO weapons.
Interestingly enough, the Soviets moved away from the 7.62mm round, switching to a 5.45x39mm round with greater muzzle velocity (850-900 m/s) in the mid-1970s.
Thirsty Viking wrote: Last thought Most rounds in modern warefare are fired in Supressive fire... shots that cost an enemy CP because he can't aim well while being shot at. As for how to implemnt all this stuf ...
True. Human nature is to duck when someone is shooting at you. Self-preservation and all.. But soldiers are trained to achieve the mission objective. And, often times, this includes killing the enemy. As a result, most rounds (at the squad/platoon level.. I'm not talking about artillery) fired in combat, by trained professionals, is designed to kill the enemy. Period. If he's dead, he can't shoot you.
On 9/16/2002 at 6:58pm, Thirsty Viking wrote:
RE: Re: The Riddle of Steel, SMG's and lasers
Sneaky Git wrote: My apologies for the semi-rant nature of what follows..
Thirsty Viking wrote:
Rifles have differing range increments. as an example an M16 probably has a TN of 12 at 300 yards.
That TN is overly harsh for a trained rifleman. Max effective range for the M16A2 against point targets is 550 meters, and 800 meters for area targets.
I'd disagree with you. Based on my experience on firing ranges in the army. A high percentage of shots by trained riflemen miss at 300 yards. in firing range conditions. Assumptions need to be made about how well trained they are.
Just so we are talking about the same range, here are the probabilities based on d rolled for hitting with a TN 12.
[code]
1 9.0%
2 17.2%
3 24.6%
4 31.4%
5 37.6%
6 43.2%
7 48.3%
8 53.0%
9 57.2%
10 61.1%
[/code]
As you can see 53% of shots made with 8d will hit.
Also Joe average without any training in the M16 can hit at 300 yards 31.4 % of the time if he aims. I think TN of 12 might be generous.
Think I'd recomend TN 6 range increment 50 yards on an m 16 this gives TN 12 at 300 yards.
Instead of ACCURACY for hit location apply the -1 or -3 modifier to their TN with a rifle. this generates your snipers and sharpshooters quite nicely.
On 9/16/2002 at 7:13pm, Thirsty Viking wrote:
RE: The Riddle of Steel, SMG's and lasers
Sneaky Git wrote:Thirsty Viking wrote: Use the MP refresh rules to simulate recoil. do this by penalizing the refresh rate on the round after firing. Recoiless weapons refresh normally..
This could work. It's a good way to simulate recoil.. so long as the shooter fires more than once.
Isn't that the biggest effect of recoil ... assuming a skilled shooter? sure i've seen novices knocked on their buts firing a grenade launcher, but not anyone with experience.
Sneaky Git wrote:Thirsty Viking wrote: Once the US Army made a couple of minor changes, and switched powder, the M16's notorious jamming difficulties ceased. The M16A2, an evolution of the M16 and M16A1, is one of the most reliable assault rifles in the world.
Sounds good, I hope it is now true. It wasn't in the late 80's but as you say my info may be a bit dated. I never suggested that nothing has changed in 10 years... Heck the soviets no longer own eastern europe.Sneaky Git wrote:
Remember, the goal is to kill the enemy. If a pistol round was better at it, frontline combat troops would all be carrying SMGs (most use pistol rounds, or "short" rifle rounds). It is just that they lack the range and stopping power of assault rifles.
More the range and accuracy than the stopping power. You also have to hit, and maintain combat effectiveness. SMG's are by thier nature less accurate and shorter range. All weapons are trade offs. If they weren't snipers would use the same weapon as a police officer walking a beat. While velocity is part of the equation, the mass of the round is as well. When you trade mass for velocity you gain accuracy and distance.Sneaky Git wrote:
The AK47, OTOH, fires a 7.62x39mm round that is compatible with Russian/Soviet weapons, but not NATO weapons.
Perhaps this has changed, but they told me at West Point the Ak47 could use m60 rounds.. but the m60 couldn't use ak47 rounds.Sneaky Git wrote:Thirsty Viking wrote: Last thought Most rounds in modern warefare are fired in Supressive fire... shots that cost an enemy CP because he can't aim well while being shot at. As for how to implemnt all this stuf ...
True. Human nature is to duck when someone is shooting at you. Self-preservation and all.. But soldiers are trained to achieve the mission objective. And, often times, this includes killing the enemy. As a result, most rounds (at the squad/platoon level.. I'm not talking about artillery) fired in combat, by trained professionals, is designed to kill the enemy. Period. If he's dead, he can't shoot you.
Most of rounds fired in combat miss. Profesionals under fire will return fire in a war situation even if they don't have a target yet. Sure a round is designed to kill. But far more shots are fired.. at the platoon and squad level than ever hit thier target.
Lastly, perhaps I shouldn't have said most. but certainly less than most military pistols that would be carried by groups in an xcom situation. Unless the starting charachters a street thugs. (the bloods vs the aliens for Los Angelos is kinda a cool idea) lol OBVIOUSLY you have to hit to do any damage at all. M16 is the weapon of choice in our army because we desire to engage at range whenever possible. If you hit your enemy farther away than he hits you things shift in your favor. It's also easier to safely call in support the further away from the enemy you are.
On 9/17/2002 at 12:00am, Wolfen wrote:
RE: The Riddle of Steel, SMG's and lasers
I'm going to have to throw in a few disagreements here...
I'd disagree with you. Based on my experience on firing ranges in the army. A high percentage of shots by trained riflemen miss at 300 yards. in firing range conditions. Assumptions need to be made about how well trained they are.
I'm hardly a trained rifleman, but I can hit the 500m. pop-up, without taking time to aim, with an M-16 most of the time. I was just a tanker, more comfortable with my M9 than my rifle, and more comfortable still with D-U Armor surrounding me, and putting 120mm rounds down-range. Oddly enough though, I could hit the 500m targets more often than the 50m. Had to do with the length of the weapon, -vs- the length of my arms, more than the accuracy of the rifle. I shoot considerably better with the M-4 Carbine (carbine version of the M16A2, if you're not familiar with it) than the M16A2, because it's a lot shorter rifle.
More the range and accuracy than the stopping power. You also have to hit, and maintain combat effectiveness. SMG's are by thier nature less accurate and shorter range. All weapons are trade offs. If they weren't snipers would use the same weapon as a police officer walking a beat. While velocity is part of the equation, the mass of the round is as well. When you trade mass for velocity you gain accuracy and distance.
Way we were taught, it was the tumble of the round once it penetrated a body that applied most of the stopping power. Something about the caliber of the round, the length, and the shape that makes it tumble once it hits soft-tissue. This is also the reason why the M16A1 was considered a less effective weapon during Vietnam and the Korean wars, due to the high amount of foliage. The bullets would hit the leaves and branches, then begin to tumble, drastically reducing accuracy and range. In clear terrain though, I've seen a sharpshooter put a round through an Ivan at 700m.
On 9/17/2002 at 6:49am, Bladesinger wrote:
M16a2 Ect.
Sneaky Git...you are very correct and our learned but missinformed or not quite as experienced comrade Thirsty Viking should heed your words,for you know of what you speak.
On 9/17/2002 at 4:04pm, Mike Holmes wrote:
RE: The Riddle of Steel, SMG's and lasers
OK, I want to chime in.
I used both models of M16 from 1987 to 2002, and I found only a slight increase in reliability during that time. In general the damn things will jam after firing a lot of rounds. Not a huge problem, usually, but in combat potentially fatal. Anyhow, I still believe that the M16's reliability is mostly a matter of Army propaganda. Mewanwhile I got the honor once of firing the millionth round from an AK 47 at a test site (I think they told everone that, I think that many more than a million rounds had been fired). It had never been cleaned once in all that time, and had never once jammed. Apparently it's next to impossible. Consider the designer. Kalishnikov was a soldier himself, and wanted to make a weapon that would withstand the rigors that he had seen on the East Front in WWII. Not hard to believe that the lowest US bidder (and owned by Mattel, for that matter) Colt, makes a sub-standard weapon. Democracy at work. ;-)
Anyhow, that all said, it's not an unusable weapon by any means.
Also, comparing the M16 load to a pistol load does not hold up. Yes, it's a .223 or 4.45 MM round (to be precise). But it's hardly rimfire ammo. The load is much larger. Also, longer barrel length translates to higher veolocity. IOW, the round that comes out of an M16 is much more dangerous than all but the largest pistol rounds. In fact, the tumbling effect is not all that large with the M16, actually, thats an effect of all small calibre weapons. A lot of the damage done with such high velocity military rounds is due to tissue shock caused by the suction of the round traveling through tissue at such high velocities. IOW, not only does it make a hole, but it tends to bruise and tear lots of surrounding tissue. Which is effective in combat. It makes for injured soldiers, not dead. Which is advantageous in combat. Each injured soldier requires at least one more uninjured soldier to tend to.
That all said, any 7.62 round is going to beat it hands down for damage. These are all similar to or larger than the 30-06 rounds hunters commonly use for deer hunting. And they are very effective. The FN/FAL uses such a round and came under a lot of scritiny in France where their equivalent of SWAT teams used the weapons. Seems that too many bad guys were being shot and the round was going straight through and injuring innocent bystanders. 7.62 is scarry powerful.
The 7.62 that NATO uses, and the Warsaw Pact nations use are, the same calibre, but different lengths. Hence John is correct about interchangability amongst the weapons he cited. But I think that he has them reversed. I think that the NATO round is larger and therefore does not fit into the AK-47. I'd have to check. The ammo is often listed by its length as well as calibre to differentiate.
I qualified expert on most occasions, but when I missed, I missed the far targets as one would expect. I'd get it to about a 10TN or so at that far target. Here's an important consideration. Notice how in ranging the targets the intervals in between tend to increase? That's because ffom a human perspective, things need to double or halve in perceptibility to have an affect on our ability to sense them. See the GRUPS range/size/movement table.
IOW, ranges sould not just add straight for powered weapons. For muscle powered weapons, the problem is oomph, and so linear progression will work for them. But for firearms and energy weapons especially, drop is not nearly the problem. So instead of calculating a penalty for every increment of so many yards, it should be at the doubling of a certain increment. So if we choose 25 meters as PB for a M16, then:
50 meters TN+1
100 meters TN+2
200 meters TN+3
400 meters TN+4
800 meters TN+5
I might even go to 20 meters base. Given the above, I'd go with a TN 6 base for the M16. That means that a guy with CP 10 will still miss the 400 meter target 35% of the time. Which means he'll probably qualify expert (not really that hard). I probably had a CP of 7-8 IRL (National Guard, part time, FA, :-) , which is why I often only made sharpshooter. This seems to make sense to me.
Are there penalties for moving targets in TROS? There ought to be; it makes as much difference as range.
Note that I'd also require a shift from 10 to 12 as TN 11 is the same as TN 10.
Just my thoughts.
Interestigly, for single shots, the laser isn't going to be much better. Again, the limitation is human perception. Any of these weapons can mount a scope which will reduce the range penalty effectively, but increase movent penalties, interestingly.
Mike
On 9/17/2002 at 4:30pm, svenlein wrote:
RE: The Riddle of Steel, SMG's and lasers
Here is a web site with lots of information on wounding effect of firearms:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/tactical.htm
Specificly the "Wound Ballistics" liink.
I would love to here a rebuttal about it.
For example they consider the effect of hydrostatic shock to be minimal for stopping or killing a target.
Does anyone have a better researched source than this link?
Scott
On 9/17/2002 at 5:28pm, Thirsty Viking wrote:
RE: The Riddle of Steel, SMG's and lasers
It's not worth argueing over. There are always gifted sharpshooters, and there are always those who have a lot of skill. getting hit with almost any bullet hurts. even a little derringer rd and be quite effective. Take your propaganda and make hitting at 700 yards with an M16 a TN of 5 for all I care, and have it tear limbs off of peoples bodies with every hit, Its your game. Under the numbers I proposed an M16 would have a TN 20 at 700 yards, a TN of 17 in the hands of someone with major Accuracy. If it had a scope, that TN would be still less (no I have never used an M16 with a scope).
As for the anecdotal evidence of hitting more often at 500 yards than at 50 yards... I have no responce.
about TN's for an M16
From army firing Range documents:
B-4. CONDUCT OF THE RECORD FIRE RANGE:
a. Rifle record fire will normally be fired on Range 32 or Range 101. These ranges are computerized and have 16 firing points. Range Control will provide tower operators for these ranges. The OIC will coordinate with the tower operator for specifics about running the range. Soldiers are required to detect and engage targets at distances ranging from 50 meters to 300 meters. Soldiers will fire two twenty round magazines. The 1st will be fired from the foxhole supported position. The 2nd will be fired from the prone unsupported position. The following standards apply:
[code]
RATING STANDARD
EXPERT 36-40
SHARPSHOOTER 30-35
MARKSMAN 23-29
UNQUALIFIED 22-BELOW
[/code]
20 shots from a foxhole with weapon supported by sandbags.
20 shots prone with elbows supported by the ground.
These could be argued for additional dice, or lowering of target number.
Reguardless the army qualifies a marksman as someone who misses with an M16 less than 45% of the time. In game terms they would be rolling their the lesser of MP or WIT x2 dice.
Are there people who hit almost every time... Yes
Would a person with major gift Accuracy Hit almost every time ... Yes
a person with minor gift accuracy as presented normally qualify as a sharpshooter, and major gift as an expert (tn9 with 8 dice hitts 98% of time at 200 yards and 83% of time at 300. ... typical score of about 38 --- the odds only go up if he has wit 5 and 10d mp)
So I'll stick by my numbers with the house rule for Shooting gift
Minor Gift Sharpshooter - Reduces Range penalty by 1
Major Gift Expertshooter - Reduces Range Penalty by 3
firing Position Prone +1d for shooting attacks
firing position Foxhole/supported +2d for shooting attacks
Reguardless of annecdotes, it models the U.S. army with an M16 fairly well
As for stopping power you may be right... all the people I talked with shot their foes in Jungles of Vietnam and Central America. They weren't too happy with it. I was out before fighting in the desert. Your explanation if accurate would reconcile the points of view and suggest a weapon specific rule for vegetation AV's. That being said, I still believe that making an m16 with one success a Damage level of 9 is too much. That is what was proposed in the initial ranges.
On 9/17/2002 at 6:38pm, Mokkurkalfe wrote:
RE: The Riddle of Steel, SMG's and lasers
Whoa...Lots of knowledge being thrown around here.
I really appreciate your answers, and have made up some hodge-podge rules.
Single shot:
As with a bow. With semi-automatic weapons, you can shoot twice a round.
The second shot's Refresh is penalized by the Recoil value.
Burst:
As with a single shot, although only MP(refresh as usual) minus Recoil dice can be used.
1-2 successes means one hit,3-4 successes means two hits, 5+ means three hits.
Automatic fire:
You can use your entire MP. You may divide your dice between up to three targets if you wish(assuming they're standing somewhat close).
Unless you have a bipod/tripod, you fire at TN+2, and have to subtract the Recoil value from your MP.
Mike's point is a very good one. The range increment should double each time.
And some values for this to make sense
Pistol
Damage 5p
ATN 5 +1/15 m
Recoil 1
Ammo 8
SMG
Damage 4p
ATN 5 +1/15 m
Recoil 1
Ammo 25
Assault rifle
Damage 6p
ATN 6 +1/50 m
Recoil 2
Ammo 30
Some more questions also.
How much ammo should these things have?
a) a "standard", nameless machinegun
b) a hand-held cannon(fires single, big, explosive rounds)
c) an auto-cannon/minigun
Constuctive criticism would be appreciated, especially on the weapon values, since I know next to nothing about these things.
Hmmm...I can't preview my post...
On 9/17/2002 at 8:31pm, Mike Holmes wrote:
RE: The Riddle of Steel, SMG's and lasers
svenlein wrote: Here is a web site with lots of information on wounding effect of firearms:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/tactical.htm
Specificly the "Wound Ballistics" liink.
I would love to here a rebuttal about it.
For example they consider the effect of hydrostatic shock to be minimal for stopping or killing a target.
Does anyone have a better researched source than this link?
I agree totally. I didn't mean to imply that the M16 was particularly lethal, myself. Hydorstatic shock, as I said, hurts. Al lI said was that the M16 is as lethal or worse than most handguns. Handgun "stopping power" is a myth. In fact "stopping Power" is pretty much a myth. That is (and nobody believes me when I say this) that people experince the same impact when they are hit by a bullet as the firer does from the recoil. Exactly the same, actually (see Newton, Isaac). People tend to fall down actually, get this, because they think they're supposed to. The FBI recommends larger calibres (as bigger holes are nastier), but admits that the affects gained are limited. Simply put most firearms are not nearly as lethal as people think.
Oh, and where do I get all this data? The same site as the above. Where I get most of my non-anecdotal (anyone want to hear about firing a fifty cal, or 155mm howitzer?) data on firearms. You can find me quoting it on other sites like GO.
Mike
On 9/17/2002 at 8:49pm, Mike Holmes wrote:
RE: The Riddle of Steel, SMG's and lasers
SMGs should do exactly the same damage as pistols. Seeing as they use the same ammo, and have similar barrel lengths.
There should be two MGs, light and heavy. Heavy is not really a man portable weapon (more like a squad weapon). Many LMGs come belt fed with belts of 100 rnds. Same for HMGs actually. Belts can be linked together for a positional defense.
The Hand Cannon is fictitious, so you can do what you like. But all handguns are made for non-combat sorts of operations (officers only carry them because they can't be bothered to carry a full-length weapon). That said, they are designed with that sort of operation in mind. Which means from 5 to 15 rounds. Even the fifteen round Barretta is seen as a bit excessive inmany cases. That all said, there are weird handguns designed with clips that carry thirty or more rounds. What's your Hand Cannon for?
Miniguns (ridiculous weapons that can fire 100 rnds in one second) are sorta man portable, but nobody except movie directors think of them this way. Link as many 100 rnd belts together as you can carry. Because you're going to be out of ammo before you know it.
You can't carry and fire a 20 MM vulcan autocannon.
Mike
On 9/17/2002 at 9:07pm, Valamir wrote:
RE: The Riddle of Steel, SMG's and lasers
The closest realistic thing to a "hand cannon" would be a bazooka or a under barrel grenade launcher.
As for the lethality of fire arms and people thinking their supposed to fall down...there a great scene in U571 (otherwise a fairly mediocre movie) where an escape prisoner shoots a crew man whose coming at him. The crewman stops cold...gets this puzzled look on his face as if to say...wait a minute...that wasn't all that bad...and proceeds to go after the prisoner anyway.
On 9/17/2002 at 10:57pm, Thirsty Viking wrote:
RE: The Riddle of Steel, SMG's and lasers
Very good posts mike, i will respond to a few points in the other one in a second.
Mike Holmes wrote:
All I said was that the M16 is as lethal or worse than most handguns.
I agree with this, I tried to clarify earlier that I meant military pistols like a .45. Unless things have changed the army doesn't typically go to battle with a .22 pistol
That is (and nobody believes me when I say this) that people experince the same impact when they are hit by a bullet as the firer does from the recoil. Exactly the same, actually (see Newton, Isaac).
This is largely true, however rifles disperse this impact across a larger surface area (the but of the rifle) and to a degree over time (recoil springs, and Also the bolt action in a semi-automatic). These reduce the sensation of the impact. I have seen novices knocked on thier but when firing weapons because the weren't balance for it.
Oh a quick addition... the impact of the rifle is also slowed for the weight of the rifle. that gentle (or not so gentle) shug of an old heavey ww1 rifle is an awesome amount of momentum in the bullet.
On 9/17/2002 at 11:09pm, Brian Leybourne wrote:
RE: The Riddle of Steel, SMG's and lasers
Valamir wrote: a great scene in U571 (otherwise a fairly mediocre movie)
cough-cough-once-more-the-yanks-take-credit-for-something-the-brits-did-might-as-well-have-been-a-Mel-Gibson-film-cough
Brian.
On 9/18/2002 at 1:11am, Thirsty Viking wrote:
RE: The Riddle of Steel, SMG's and lasers
sorry to post this in sections but the Gurps analysis is very long.
Mike Holmes wrote:
I still believe that the M16's reliability is mostly a matter of Army propaganda. ... Anyhow, that all said, it's not an unusable weapon by any means.
I agree, and yes I too fired one of the last groups through an AK 47 that had 1500 students fire a clip each through it that summer, plus the clips fired by the instructors. They guaranteed us that it hadn't been cleaned all summer and that they didn't know if it ever had been. In all my weapons familiarization course it was the only one i ever had an instructor say... "if you have to use it, don't worry about maintenance it will not need it". It was far more likely that I would one day need to use an AK 47 for an extended periode of time than an M-60 but thats what I was told. So It made an impression.
Mike Holmes wrote:
Also, comparing the M16 load to a pistol load does not hold up. Yes, it's a .223 or 4.45 MM round (to be precise). But it's hardly rimfire ammo. The load is much larger. Also, longer barrel length translates to higher veolocity. IOW, the round that comes out of an M16 is much more dangerous than all but the largest pistol rounds.
I agree, I was commenting on the pistols that would be carried by high end military of an X-Comm campaign. (I Loved the computer Game) not the average saturnay night special.
On 9/18/2002 at 1:42am, Thirsty Viking wrote:
TRoS vs GURPS
Mike Holmes wrote:
That all said, any 7.62 round is going to beat it hands down for damage. These are all similar to or larger than the 30-06 rounds hunters commonly use for deer hunting. And they are very effective.
I qualified expert on most occasions, but when I missed, I missed the far targets as one would expect. I'd get it to about a 10TN or so at that far
the difference between a 10 and 12 on 1 die is 10% and 9% success. If you are prone or supported by sandbages, this either adds dice or could be ruled to lower TN. between 10 and 20 the effect of raising target nuymbers is much smaller than from 2-10 on 1d. Also 10 to 11 has no effect at all.
Mike Holmes wrote:
target. Here's an important consideration. Notice how in ranging the targets the intervals in between tend to increase? That's because ffom a human perspective, things need to double or halve in perceptibility to have an affect on our ability to sense them. See the GRUPS range/size/movement table.
A couple things here gurps uses a 3d6. here are ~TN equivalents for 1d10
I have used 2 ranges 4d10 and 8d10 ...(I think 4d10 represents firing each round, and 8d10 every other rd(firing range)) to show how modifying a TN in GURPS varies from RoS %'s are for 1 success and the equivalent MODIFIED GURPS target #
[code]
RoS TN 1d10 8d10 Gurps 4d10 Gurps
02 90.00% 99.99% 99.99%
03 80.00% 99.99% 99.84%
04 70.00% 99.99% 99.19%
05 60.00% 99.93% 97.44% 16
06 50.00% 99.61% 93.75% 15
07 40.00% 98.32% 16 87.04% 12-14
08 30.00% 94.24% 15 75.99% 12
09 20.00% 83.22% 12-14 59.04% 10-11
10 10.00% 56.95% 11 34.39% 9
11 10.00% 56.95% 34.39%
12 09.00% 52.97% 10 31.43%
13 08.00% 48.68% 28.36%
14 07.00% 44.04% 25.19% 8
15 06.00% 39.04% 09 21.93%
16 05.00% 33.66% 18.55%
17 04.00% 27.86% 08 15.07% 7
18 03.00% 21.63% 07 11.47%
19 02.00% 14.92% 07.76% 6
20 01.00% 07.73% 06 03.94% 5
21 01.00% 07.73% 03.94%
22 00.90% 06.98% 03.55%
23 00.80% 06.22% 03.16%
24 00.70% 05.46% 02.77%
25 00.60% 04.70% 05 02.38%
26 00.50% 03.93% 01.99%
27 00.40% 03.16% 01.59% 4
28 00.30% 02.37% 01.19%
29 00.20% 01.59% 04 00.80%
30 00.10% 00.80% 00.40% 3
31 00.10% 00.80% 00.40%
32 00.09% 00.72% 00.36%
33 00.08% 00.64% 00.32%
34 00.07% 00.56% 00.28%
35 00.06% 00.48% 03 00.24%
36 00.05% 00.40% 00.20%
37 00.04% 00.32% 00.16%
38 00.03% 00.24% 00.12%
[/code]
The reason I argue straight line modifiers is that the shot that is off 3 inches at 50 meters is off by 18 inches at 300 meters on the same trajectory.
Also gurps uses a modifier of 2 for doubling the distance, If you check thier charts they modify by 1 for roughly every 50% and thier scale is different see above. At points modifying the TN by 1 is a huge increase
Mike Holmes wrote:
For muscle powered weapons, the problem is oomph, and so linear progression will work for them.
Actually it doesn't - all missle weapons operate at the same str across thier range in our system... so umph is technically equally maximized in an attempt to kill .... best examples crossbow and handaxe...
Mike Holmes wrote: But for firearms and energy weapons especially, drop is not nearly the problem.
This is handled by the size of the increment In gurps the increments are the same and all ranged weapons are given an accuracy modifier. 1/2 damage ranges and maximum ranges. This isn't a bad system.. but it isn't our system.. at least not at this time. Interestingly enough, the effect of aiming for a sec has a very similar effect in terms of success at hitting an identical target.
Mike Holmes wrote:
So instead of calculating a penalty for every increment of so many yards, it should be at the doubling of a certain increment. So if we choose 25 meters as PB for a M16, then:
50 meters TN+1
100 meters TN+2
200 meters TN+3
400 meters TN+4
800 meters TN+5
I might even go to 20 meters base. Given the above, I'd go with a TN 6 base for the M16. That means that a guy with CP 10 will still miss the 400 meter target 35% of the time.
While I like your philosophy of modifiers for SPOTTING things, I find AIMING things to be a different matter entirely. A Scope addresses much of this, assuming you have the correct range dialed in to compensate for the drop. and the propper windage set... sure at 50 meters these matter little, at 500 they add up on a balistic weapon. I'd give TN reductions for a scope... and better more for use of a laser range finder with the scope (or pehaps the same with bonus dice) this ensures a close estimate of distance. All assume a weapon zeroed in for the user of course.
Mike Holmes wrote: Are there penalties for moving targets in TROS? There ought to be; it makes as much difference as range.
Your right, but if you check the way gurps handles it, speed is inversly related to distance. the speed is added to the distance, and that number is checked... the effect is that a running man at 500 yards is the same target # as a sitting man.
Mike Holmes wrote:
Interestigly, for single shots, the laser isn't going to be much better. Again, the limitation is human perception. Any of these weapons can mount a scope which will reduce the range penalty effectively, but increase movent penalties, interestingly.
Gurps would disagree with you here, they double the range of the M16 for the same penalty. I assume this is because no recoil, no drop, no effect from wind.
On 9/18/2002 at 4:18pm, Mokkurkalfe wrote:
RE: The Riddle of Steel, SMG's and lasers
Mike Holmes wrote: SMGs should do exactly the same damage as pistols. Seeing as they use the same ammo, and have similar barrel lengths.
There should be two MGs, light and heavy. Heavy is not really a man portable weapon (more like a squad weapon). Many LMGs come belt fed with belts of 100 rnds. Same for HMGs actually. Belts can be linked together for a positional defense.
The Hand Cannon is fictitious, so you can do what you like. But all handguns are made for non-combat sorts of operations (officers only carry them because they can't be bothered to carry a full-length weapon). That said, they are designed with that sort of operation in mind. Which means from 5 to 15 rounds. Even the fifteen round Barretta is seen as a bit excessive inmany cases. That all said, there are weird handguns designed with clips that carry thirty or more rounds. What's your Hand Cannon for?
Miniguns (ridiculous weapons that can fire 100 rnds in one second) are sorta man portable, but nobody except movie directors think of them this way. Link as many 100 rnd belts together as you can carry. Because you're going to be out of ammo before you know it.
You can't carry and fire a 20 MM vulcan autocannon.
Mike
Right. Have changed pistol damage to 4, same as a SMG.
Pistols will, as you say, be used by officers and as sidearms for guys with bigger stuff. SMG's are there more for security teams and similar NPC's.
In the game, you use the Hand Cannon when smaller bullets just bounce.
My guess is that it's a semiautomatic grenade machinegun. It is, as you say, a made up weapon, but will here be used as a weapon against organic beings with a tank-like carapace. It may either fire explosive rounds or solid slugs.
Miniguns(a la Predator) are there because I like them. It will probably only be for helicopter support, base defence and similar things, although a clever PC might find some use for a crasched helicopter's gun...
On 9/18/2002 at 5:04pm, Mike Holmes wrote:
Re: TRoS vs GURPS
Thirsty Viking wrote: the difference between a 10 and 12 on 1 die is 10% and 9% success. If you are prone or supported by sandbages, this either adds dice or could be ruled to lower TN. between 10 and 20 the effect of raising target nuymbers is much smaller than from 2-10 on 1d.Yep, I'm mostly agreeing with your asessment here. My TN10 was more or less a compromise between your assessment, and that of the others here that seemed to work statistically.
The reason I argue straight line modifiers is that the shot that is off 3 inches at 50 meters is off by 18 inches at 300 meters on the same trajectory.That's true, but it has nothing to do with aim. The difficulty of placing a weapon on target like most things in nature is on a logarithmic curve. This is recognized by most games, and is pretty well verified by any number of sources.
Also gurps uses a modifier of 2 for doubling the distance, If you check thier charts they modify by 1 for roughly every 50% and thier scale is different see above. At points modifying the TN by 1 is a huge increaseYes. This is why I was only using a +1 instead of the GURPS +2. If you think that this makes it too easy or to hard, the solution is to change the base range to account.
Mike Holmes wrote:
For muscle powered weapons, the problem is oomph, and so linear progression will work for them.
Actually it doesn't - all missle weapons operate at the same str across thier range in our system... so umph is technically equally maximized in an attempt to kill .... best examples crossbow and handaxe...
I'm not talking about damage. I'm talking about realism. Waht I think is that Jake went with linear intervals for muscle powered weapons because of the increased vagaries of such short ranged projectiles. The ballistics come much more into play. So for those, I would go with the linear method as Jake prescribes. But for firearms which have ranges that are much longer than the perception limits of human firers, the ballistic problems are negated more, and the perception based method starts to make more sense again (to be really accurate, you would have a slight difference between lasers and firearms to account for drop at long ranges, but...).
Agreed.Mike Holmes wrote: But for firearms and energy weapons especially, drop is not nearly the problem.
This is handled by the size of the increment
In gurps the increments are the same and all ranged weapons are given an accuracy modifier. 1/2 damage ranges and maximum ranges. This isn't a bad system.. but it isn't our system.. at least not at this time.Well, yes, I'm suggesting changes to the system. As it stands firearms are not "our system". So I feel no need to be bound to the rules exactly.
This is the same point I've been making all along (and therefore agree with GURPS). At a distance, the speed is effectively less damaging to your ability to hit. It's that natural log curve.
Your right, but if you check the way gurps handles it, speed is inversly related to distance. the speed is added to the distance, and that number is checked... the effect is that a running man at 500 yards is the same target # as a sitting man.
Mike Holmes wrote:We're not disagreeing. My point is that they don't change the range penalty. I'm simply simulating the Acc modifier by changing the base range. You get a finer granularity of results that way.
Gurps would disagree with you here, they double the range of the M16 for the same penalty. I assume this is because no recoil, no drop, no effect from wind.
And as far as scopes, they serve to cancel range difficulties. As you point out, they aren't effective at point blank. So instead of calling it a TN reduction, I call it cancellation of range penalties. That way, you can never get a better shot than PB with a scope. We're doing the same thing in the end, just using different terminology.
Mike
On 9/18/2002 at 5:39pm, Mike Holmes wrote:
RE: The Riddle of Steel, SMG's and lasers
Mokkurkalfe wrote: In the game, you use the Hand Cannon when smaller bullets just bounce.This is problematic. People often think this way, but it doesn't make sense. A HE round is designed to damage things in a radius of effect. But it is actually much worse against armor. What you want is some sort of AP round, or for something with a bit more kick, a HEAP (High Explosive Armor Peircing) round, which is a very different beast. Or HEAT (High Explosive Anti-Tank). Or HEP (High Explosive Plastic, also called HESH, high explosive squash head) possibly depending on just how tank-like. Or perhaps APFSDU (Armor Piercing, Fin Stabilized, Discarding Sabot) for those really tough targets. That last one uses a depleted uranium round, and no explosives at all. Very much just a dart. The MPAT round (also a round called HEDP or High Explosive Dual Purpose) can be set to either HE or HEAT before firing.
My guess is that it's a semiautomatic grenade machinegun. It is, as you say, a made up weapon, but will here be used as a weapon against organic beings with a tank-like carapace. It may either fire explosive rounds or solid slugs.
Of course, these are mostly tank rounds, but one could theorize something similar being used in a hand weapon, I suppose. When an infantryman today wants to defeat an armored target, he uses a HEAT round of some sort. Ralph's aforementioned Bazooka. But these haven't been used for a while. Today the infantryman has to use some sort of rocket propelled round froma shoulder fired launcher, as the ammount of material flung must be pretty large to affect a tank.
So what we'd have to assume is that there are some stronger explosives available out there to make a hand calibre weapon of any use in this case. Still, on wonders why you just woudn't go with a large volume of SLAP (Saboted Light Armor Penetrator). This is .50 cal ammo that I think would take care of anything that was not actually a tank.
Hmmm. It's problematic, you see. Such weapons sound cool to theorize about, but they just aren't very realistic. If I'm going up against a tanklike monster, I'm going to carry a Dragon. Make me a light auto version of this in your game, and I'll be very happy.
Mike
On 9/18/2002 at 5:52pm, Valamir wrote:
RE: The Riddle of Steel, SMG's and lasers
If I'm going up against a tanklike monster, I'm going to carry a Dragon.
Really? Dragons are kind of heavy to carry around.
I'd be more inclined to just let him fly on his own and just call him when I need him.
<duck>
On 9/18/2002 at 6:57pm, Mokkurkalfe wrote:
RE: The Riddle of Steel, SMG's and lasers
I really thought you were joking 'bout carrying a Dragon at first.
There will be a recoilless rifle(e.g. M3), or perhaps an AT-4. They'll be more for taking out alien robots and tanks though.
I myself just snatched the Hand Cannon from the original computer game, so I never reflected on it's purpose.
What do you(i.e. anybody qualified to answer) suggest as an tank-armor piercing weapon, useful in both long and (very) short distances against fast and relatively small targets?
On 9/18/2002 at 8:41pm, Thirsty Viking wrote:
RE: Re: TRoS vs GURPS
The reason I argue straight line modifiers is that the shot that is off 3 inches at 50 meters is off by 18 inches at 300 meters on the same trajectory.That's true, but it has nothing to do with aim. The difficulty of placing a weapon on target like most things in nature is on a logarithmic curve. This is recognized by most games, and is pretty well verified by any number of sources.
Ok RoS is already an Open ended Scale that Appears somewhat Logrithmic to me (but I'm not a math PHD, it may have a different name).
Personally I thought having someone(ungifted and average) succeede in hitting a man 800 yards away (TN 19 on my system) with an standard M16A2 fired in single shot mode from a free standing position (no modifiers) with only 1 second of dedicated aiming (8d for average Wit of 4) 14.92% of the time without a Gift was very GENEROUS IMO.
[code]My successful hits at 800 meters. Assuming sufficient MP for 2xWit
Wit Average Sharp Expert
4 14.92% 21.63% 33.66%
5 18.29% 26.26% 40.13%
6 21.53% 30.62% 45.96%
7 24.64% 34.72% 51.23%
[/code]
If your going to tell me that the Average National Guardsman can make that shot 57% of the time.... and targets at 1500 meters with an M16 53% of the time.... We are just not going to agree.
My success % for 8d at 1500 meters for joe average TN 31 is .8% Not an impossible shot but not very bloody likely either. Thats what M-60's (maybe) and sniper teams(definately) are for. Theres a really nice sight called SnipersParadise this article talks about canadian snipers being given Bronze Stars for killing enemy troops and snipers at 1700-2430 yards that our forces couldn't engage with their normal weapons (at least not successfully). The 2430 yards being the longest kill shot ever documented in Battle conditions BTW. Their weapons were Macmillian Tac-50s. Gurps lists the max range of an M16 at 3843 yards... i'm sure that is using it as artillery though :-) I've never seen or heard about a scoped M16 .. we have much better specialty weapons for that range, but I digress.
Well, yes, I'm suggesting changes to the system. As it stands firearms are not "our system". So I feel no need to be bound to the rules exactly.
I feel the RoS ranged system works well. Remember gurps is a closed bell curve system they are much more cramped. I spoke unclearly... I meant that changing a gurps number by one has the effect often times of changing our TN by 2-4+. Gurps range modifiers are unrealistic but very playable for high fantasy every m16 a sniper weapon games IMO.
Lets model numbers at ranges...by giving the % chance of 1 success. I think you'll see that the diminishing returns of our ROLLING system made by jake give a good result for the TN's as long as the base range is a good fit for the weapon. It also saves rules for max ranges for the weaopn ... that is roughly TN 30 for a .8% success at 8d10. the weapon can shoot further of course.... But your Clearly wasting ammo hopng for a lucky shot.
Here is how my system works out... I don't claim it's perfect... but for an un gifted average stat rifleman taking shots with 1 sec dedicated aim standing unsupported... tell me where it isn't relatively fair or generous for an m16 and we can try to deal with it. And it is the RoS Missle system... no new mechanic. I'd smooth the drop at TN 10 if i could, but this is inherent in RoS.
[code]
TN Range 8d hit%
06 0000 99.61%
07 0050 98.32%
08 0100 94.24%
09 0150 83.22%
10 0200 56.95%
11 0250 56.95%
12 0300 52.97%
13 0350 48.68%
14 0400 44.04%
15 0450 39.04%
16 0500 33.66%
17 0550 27.86%
18 0600 21.63%
19 0650 14.92%
20 0700 07.73%
21 0750 07.73%
22 0800 06.98%
23 0850 06.22%
24 0900 05.46%
25 0950 04.70%
26 1000 3.93%
27 1050 3.16%
28 1100 2.37%
29 1150 1.59%
30 1200 0.80%
[/code]
assuming 40 shots equally devided between 75 150 225 and 300 yards on a taget range (I don't remember the exact placement)
He'd hit ~10@75 8@150 6@225 5@300 for a score of 29 the top of marksman
If sharpshooter is minor gift reducing range mod by 1 and same guy has it he hits ~10@75 9@150 8@225 6@300 score 33 mid range Sharpshooter
If Expertshooter is a major Gift reducing range mod by 3 and same guy has it he hits ~10@75 10@150 10@225 and 8@300 a score of 38 middle of the expert range.
The effect of Wit on my system assuming MP >= wit*2...
[code]
ungifted
wit 75 150 225 300 typical score
3 9.5 7.4 4.7 4.3 25.9
4 9.8 8.3 5.7 5.3 29.1
5 9.9 8.9 6.5 6.1 31.5
6 10.0 9.3 7.2 6.8 33.2
7 10.0 9.6 7.7 7.3 34.6
Sharpshooter
wit 75 150 225 300 typical score
3 10.0 8.8 7.4 4.7 30.8
4 10.0 9.4 8.3 5.7 33.4
5 10.0 9.7 8.9 6.5 35.2
6 10.0 9.9 9.3 7.2 36.3
7 10.0 9.9 9.6 7.7 37.2
Expert Shooter
wit 75 150 225 300 typical score
3 10.0 9.8 9.5 7.4 36.7
4 10.0 10.0 9.8 8.3 38.1
5 10.0 10.0 9.9 8.9 38.9
6 10.0 10.0 10.0 9.3 39.3
7 10.0 10.0 10.0 9.6 39.6
[/code]
As you can see with suficient training average scores for.. wit 5 ungifted would qualify as sharpshooters in the army , Wit 6 sharpshooters would be borderline Experts, And Wit 7 ExpertShooters would shoot perfect 3 out of 5 times (give him a sniper rifle). Side Note... The Gifts Qualify my sample soldiers with a wit 3.... with the modifiers of supported position for half the shots and for prone on the other half... a WIT 2 might make the cut. These numbers were not modified though.
On 9/19/2002 at 3:14pm, Mike Holmes wrote:
RE: Re: TRoS vs GURPS
Thirsty Viking wrote: If your going to tell me that the Average National Guardsman can make that shot 57% of the time.... and targets at 1500 meters with an M16 53% of the time.... We are just not going to agree.Hell no, I never said that at all. I agree that the TN I gave is for target shooting, prone supported position, some small amount of time to aim, etc. I agree with all your modifiers above. Snapshots would be much higherr, TN more like 14, 15 or maybe higher. And using the doubling effect, you do have to put a max range on shots. Anything over 800 meters is a completely random and unaimed shot.
Given these modifiers (which I was just ignoring for simplicity as such rules did not exist prior to you making them up), to keep the base TN where I had it, I'd have to lower the base range to about 5 meters. That gives.
5m TN6
10m TN7
20m TN8
40m TN9
80m TN10
160m TN12
320m TN13
640m TN14
1240m TN15
Again, too, you could be more realistic, and include drop (use the above for lasers) and get something more like.
5m TN6
10m TN7
20m TN8
40m TN9
80m TN10
150m TN12
250m TN13
400m TN14
600m TN15
900m TN16
You are, of course correct about the TN> 10 problem where the odds do not increase linearly. So you could declare any penalty that goes above ten to be doubled, or something. So a +1 TN added to a 10 TN would be a 12TN, and a +2 would be a 14TN (Hey, that's cool because it takes care of the TN 11 problem). In any case, this problem exists for both our methods. OTOH, it does make your method look a bit more like what I intend. Hmmm. That's probably still true with the doubling method.
My success % for 8d at 1500 meters for joe average TN 31 is .8% Not an impossible shot but not very bloody likely either. Thats what M-60's (maybe) and sniper teams(definately) are for. Theres a really nice sight called SnipersParadise this article talks about canadian snipers being given Bronze Stars for killing enemy troops and snipers at 1700-2430 yards that our forces couldn't engage with their normal weapons (at least not successfully). The 2430 yards being the longest kill shot ever documented in Battle conditions BTW. Their weapons were Macmillian Tac-50s. Gurps lists the max range of an M16 at 3843 yards... i'm sure that is using it as artillery though :-) I've never seen or heard about a scoped M16 .. we have much better specialty weapons for that range, but I digress.I agree with all this (including the artillery comment; again, I give it a max range of 800 meters). Scopes would increase the max range, of course. M16s come equipped these days with a scope mount. Not that I've ever seen one with a scope on it either, and I agree that it would not be the weapon of choice (lots of snipers still use M14s strangely). But one could. I'm not sure how it's germain to the discussion, however.
I feel the RoS ranged system works well. Remember gurps is a closed bell curve system they are much more cramped. I spoke unclearly... I meant that changing a gurps number by one has the effect often times of changing our TN by 2-4+. Gurps range modifiers are unrealistic but very playable for high fantasy every m16 a sniper weapon games IMO.Well, I disagree. The GURPS rules seem to me and many others to be well designed. Considering that their line editor, Sean Punch (AKA Dr. Kromm), has a doctorate in Physics, I'm not surprised. It is an abstraction, as are all models, but one that is well thought out. In any case, I'd agree as I have before, that TROS's system works well for muscle powered weapons, but not for firearms which operate in a very different fashion.
I agree that your system does reproduce the army results well. I think what I have above probably will do just fine as well. A cool thing that my system does is explain the tactical need to move in on enemies when at less than 50 m range. And it explains the PB phenomenon. Which neither of our esitmates did previously.
Your system is probably easier, however, as it does not require a lookup or doing the doubling in head, and sticks with the same system across the board (one doesn't have to remember the exception). As such I'll acceed that any slight increase in realism that my system might have is probably outweighed by that advantage. And your system does have the advantage that the "random" roll for extreme range is part of the system as calculated (as opposed to just ruling miss). Which is always a cool feature.
So that all said, I'd pobably go with your system at this point. Just to facilitate play.
Mike
On 9/19/2002 at 3:23pm, Mike Holmes wrote:
RE: The Riddle of Steel, SMG's and lasers
BrianL wrote: cough-cough-once-more-the-yanks-take-credit-for-something-the-brits-did-might-as-well-have-been-a-Mel-Gibson-film-cough
Including Mel Gibson would make it an Australian-giving-credit-to-the-Yanks-for-something-that-the-Brits-did-cough. Just to be precise. ;-)
Mike
On 9/19/2002 at 3:36pm, Mike Holmes wrote:
RE: The Riddle of Steel, SMG's and lasers
Mokkurkalfe wrote: What do you(i.e. anybody qualified to answer) suggest as an tank-armor piercing weapon, useful in both long and (very) short distances against fast and relatively small targets?
Well, you are going to have to invent something because there are no weapons designed to take out something smalll with tank-armor at very short range moving quickly. Because nothing exists which is small with tank-armor and moves quickly. And you certainly don't engage such a thing at close range if you can avoid it.
So given the parameters we'll have to make up a weapon from scratch. I'm seeing some sort of personal recoilless rifle firing a HEAT round. Lets call it a 37mm just to keep it in the more reasonably man portable range (many anti-tank weapons are this size). Assume some improved munition in terms of penetrating thermodynamic qualities. Then we have to consider ammo feed. Go with something like the "manportable" minigun arrangement, and have rounds chain fed. If each round weighs say 2 lbs, that means that a man can reasonably carry say 20 rounds.
I'd imagine that the weapon itself would weigh another fifteen pounds. Call him heavily encumbered at all times. Recoil is vented off to the right. Check your backblast area before firing.
How does that sound? BTW, such a round would make a hole in a man large enough for a chihuahua to climb through, and would penetrate a couple inches of steel. Would that do?
Or is that overkill. I can imagine a 20mm version as well that would be a lot lighter. Again, however, you can't make this a recoil weapon. And a recoiless firearm would kill the user. The shoulder fired rocket launcher is seeming to be the only reaonable option. How about an semi-automatic version of one of those?
Mike
On 9/19/2002 at 3:38pm, Mike Holmes wrote:
RE: The Riddle of Steel, SMG's and lasers
Mokkurkalfe wrote: I really thought you were joking 'bout carrying a Dragon at first.
Sorry, I just assumed that everyone knew what a Dragon launcher was.
Mike
On 9/19/2002 at 5:27pm, Thirsty Viking wrote:
RE: Re: TRoS vs GURPS
Mike Holmes wrote: Hell no, I never said that at all. I agree that the TN I gave is for target shooting, prone supported position, some small amount of time to aim, etc. I agree with all your modifiers above.
Ok I had specified before that those effects would be part of a system bu not the base numbers... I didn't realize you were including them. Even so, at those ranges for our system ... you need to look beyond the TN's to the % hits ... you can dispute my 8d base line if you want.. certainly nothing sacred about it... but since you didn't, and noone else here did, I'll assume that is basicly acceptable.
Mike Holmes wrote: Snapshots would be much higherr, TN more like 14, 15 or maybe higher. And using the doubling effect, you do have to put a max range on shots. Anything over 800 meters is a completely random and unaimed shot.A well selected range increments just reduces the success results to limit this. My proposed system reduces my standard shot to a 7% hit level ... It depends what you mean by snap shots.... if you mean firing from the hip or whatever... i agree a TN is in order, but the biggest effect IMO is rolling 4d instead of 8d. if you doing snap shots every second.. probably 3d assuming recoil of 1 in the 2nd and succeeding rounds.
Mike Holmes wrote:Actually, it was the leargd drop from 9 to 10 that i was talking bout.... not a huge problem... just an annoyance. Given the precipitous drop at that range increment. Since it doesn't drop at all from 10 to 11.
You are, of course correct about the TN> 10 problem where the odds do not increase linearly.
So you could declare any penalty that goes above ten to be doubled, or something. So a +1 TN added to a 10 TN would be a 12TN, and a +2 would be a 14TN (Hey, that's cool because it takes care of the TN 11 problem). In any case, this problem exists for both our methods. OTOH, it does make your method look a bit more like what I intend. Hmmm. That's probably still true with the doubling method.
I agree with all this (including the artillery comment; again, I give it a max range of 800 meters). Scopes would increase the max range, of course. M16s come equipped these days with a scope mount. Not that I've ever seen one with a scope on it either, and I agree that it would not be the weapon of choice (lots of snipers still use M14s strangely). But one could. I'm not sure how it's germain to the discussion, however.
Ah... I was using it to show combat limitations of range by the M16 in the real world in standard configuration. The landing zone was under fire and the platoons there were pinned down and couldn't engage the shooters (not effectively anyway) given that they had M16's and possibly M60's (or whatever has replaced it, but you can't shoot what you can't see) as a normal infantry detatchment. The snipers were given 5 bronze stars (well authorized.. some snafu with canadian gov...) for saving the americans.
Mike Holmes wrote: Well, I disagree. The GURPS rules seem to me and many others to be well designed. Considering that their line editor, Sean Punch (AKA Dr. Kromm), has a doctorate in Physics, I'm not surprised. It is an abstraction, as are all models, but one that is well thought out. In any case, I'd agree as I have before, that TROS's system works well for muscle powered weapons, but not for firearms which operate in a very different fashion.
I agree that the rules as a whole are wonderful. That being said, a sniper charachter without a scope can hit quite easily at EXTREME ranges with an m16.
As long as I am talking Scopes: I believe that a scope should add to the range increment instead of modify the die roll. I'd have to look at it to get final numbers... Untill i do probably use a rule of thumb of adding 5 yards for each factor of magnification above 1, 10 yards if range is known within 20yards. And the scope is propely adjusted for range. Another nice thing about lasers, propperly scoped... you never have to adjust it for drop... or windage effect. so it would always be at + 10yards /per x-1
Mike Holmes wrote:Sorry i missed it.... I'll look back... but what point blank phenomenon were you discussing?
And it explains the PB phenomenon.
In my opinion you only close within 50m when you are either not sure where the enemy are, and/or can't get a shot from further away(frequently the choice.
On a side issue... how far can you throw a grenade effectiely? Could this be part of the closing in... assuming no handy 203?
On 9/19/2002 at 7:05pm, Mike Holmes wrote:
RE: Re: TRoS vs GURPS
Thirsty Viking wrote: As long as I am talking Scopes: I believe that a scope should add to the range increment instead of modify the die roll. I'd have to look at it to get final numbers... Untill i do probably use a rule of thumb of adding 5 yards for each factor of magnification above 1, 10 yards if range is known within 20yards. And the scope is propely adjusted for range. Another nice thing about lasers, propperly scoped... you never have to adjust it for drop... or windage effect. so it would always be at + 10yards /per x-1Hmmm. Seems logical, actually, to just multiply the range modifier by the magnification. Seems too powerful, however. There must be some mitigating factor.
Mike Holmes wrote: Sorry i missed it.... I'll look back... but what point blank phenomenon were you discussing?Hadn't been. It just occurs to me that a shot at Point Blank should be easier with a firearm than one at 40 or 50 meters. Neither of our earlier systems would allow for that. The Base range on the muscle powered weapons is small enough that you get a bracket that covers Point Blank by default. HAndguns would probaby have this effect as well. Rifles might not need it. But what about autofire again, then? That should certainly have greater effects at shorter ranges than 50 meters. Or is that why rifles now have the burst option? Probably moot.
In my opinion you only close within 50m when you are either not sure where the enemy are, and/or can't get a shot from further away(frequently the choice.Well, there are certainly other reaons for closing in. Flanking not the least of them. But my point is that it probably is easier to hit with a firearm at close range than at 50 m. That's all.
On a side issue... how far can you throw a grenade effectiely? Could this be part of the closing in... assuming no handy 203?
Anyhow, as I've said, probably not interesting enough to include rules for.
Mike
On 9/19/2002 at 8:09pm, Thirsty Viking wrote:
RE: Re: TRoS vs GURPS
Mike Holmes wrote: Hadn't been. It just occurs to me that a shot at Point Blank should be easier with a firearm than one at 40 or 50 meters. Neither of our earlier systems would allow for that. The Base range on the muscle powered weapons is small enough that you get a bracket that covers Point Blank by default. HAndguns would probaby have this effect as well. Rifles might not need it.
Hand guns would have a range increment of 20yards or less. actually for effective use the range might be much like a bow. just looked it up, 10-25 yards... sounds too long for handguns... I was only proposing the Range increment for an m16. Hiting with a handgun 56% of the time at 100 yards... is too generous I think. Sharpshooter and Expertshooter would still get thier bonus. hmmm at a at a range increment of 10m the
Average Joe would hit a man sized target 33.66% and an Expertshooter 48.68 This sounds good for a quickly aimed shot. Losing 4d for the snap shot adds plenty of negatives.... hand gun recoil effects are probably 1/2 the damage their damage rounded up.
On 9/19/2002 at 8:41pm, Thirsty Viking wrote:
More Thoughts on Scopes on rifles
I considered scopes as simply multipling... but a large amount of misses at range are caused by miniscule innaccuracies in aiming/ scope alignment or shooting techniqe if properly sighted, or even a step in an unexpected direction just before the shot. For these reasons I didn't give a straight multiplication modifier. This being said a 6X scope gives a shooting result of halving the distance modifier. 11 x is at 1/3 the distance modifier. hmm a 900 meter shot going from a hit % of 5.46 % for JoeAve to 52.97% Joe Sharpshooter hitting 83.22% of the time.
Perhaps not perfect... but a workable game solution I think.
An optional use in the spirit of rolling many dice... allow a scoped rifle the users AG * squareroot(magnification facto) bonus dice on aimed shots. AG bonus dice with 2x, 2*AG at 4x, 3*AG at 9x, 4*AG at 16X.
no too much, how about 2*(mag-1) bunus dice. 10X scope is 20 bonus dice... yikes lol snipers always have been scary
This would actually work Very well. Divide bonus dice by 2 if the scope is aligned but set to wrong range. If scope is out of alignment from jaring... the shot missed beyond 1st increment... This gives Joe Average with a scope the same TN but LOTS more dice. Allowing the head shots at a TN penalty etc... hmmm Would have to be an aimed shot, not snap... in fact with a scope i'd penalive a snap shot unless the shooter was looking through the scope when he spotted his target of opportunity.
Here are how Scopes would modify an M-16 .... Before the objections come... there are btter weapons for sniping than an m16... they have a longer range increment.
[code]TN M16 8d 2x 5x 10x 15x 20x
09 150 83.22% 89.26% 97.19% 99.70% 99.97% 100.00%
10 200 56.95% 65.13% 81.47% 93.54% 97.75% 99.21%
14 400 44.04% 51.60% 68.69% 84.84% 92.67% 96.45%
20 700 7.73% 9.56% 14.85% 23.00% 30.36% 37.02%
26 1000 3.93% 4.89% 7.71% 12.22% 16.51% 20.59%
30 1200 0.80% 1.00% 1.59% 2.57% 3.54% 4.50%
36 1500 0.40% 0.50% 0.80% 1.29% 1.78% 2.27%
[/code]
Assumptions in above table
Wit = 4
1 second of deicated aiming yields 2* wit MP(firing every other rd)
MP >= Wit *2
M-16 base range of 50yards
Scope adds (magnification factor -1)x2 bonus MP dice to aimed shots.
shots are fired standing up without other aiming aids/support
Note- other weapons like sniper rifles would have longer range increments. MacMillin Tac-50 might be 100 y For instance.
Hmmm, i had an error in my post, i've edited it... %'s seem a little week. maybe if we add 20 yards to range increment and use more dice ....
[code]TN M16 range 8d scoped 2x 5x 10x 15x 20x
11 0250 056.95% 0350 65.13% 81.47% 93.54% 97.75% 99.21%
13 0350 048.68% 0490 56.56% 73.66% 88.56% 95.03% 97.84%
14 0400 044.04% 0560 51.60% 68.69% 84.84% 92.67% 96.45%
16 0500 033.66% 0700 40.13% 55.99% 73.65% 84.22% 90.55%
17 0550 027.86% 0770 33.52% 47.96% 65.40% 77.00% 84.71%
18 0600 021.63% 0840 26.26% 38.57% 54.70% 66.60% 75.37%
19 0650 014.92% 0910 18.29% 27.62% 40.86% 51.68% 60.52%
20 0700 007.73% 0980 09.56% 14.85% 23.00% 30.36% 37.02%
21 0750 007.73% 1050 09.56% 14.85% 23.00% 30.36% 37.02%
26 1000 003.93% 1400 04.89% 07.71% 12.22% 16.51% 20.59%
28 1100 002.37% 1540 02.96% 04.69% 07.51% 10.25% 12.91%
36 1500 000.40% 2100 00.50% 00.80% 01.29% 1.78% 2.27%
[/code]
these last numbers have the right FEEL to me for game play. comments from people more familiar with scope effectivness are welcome. Just remember the average simiautomatic hunting rifle may have different range increment. Especially sniper weapons.
On 9/19/2002 at 10:17pm, Thirsty Viking wrote:
RE: The Riddle of Steel, SMG's and lasers
I found an error in my tables, when I fixed it the numbers were weak, so i modified the previous post with a new option. It feels good to me from a GAMEPLAY standpoint. Comments are welcome.