Not quite certain where to put this, but considering the "Romantic Partners Who Game" thread is located herein, I'll take that as a sign this might be the correct forum for it.

Simply, my boss wants me to filter RPG content from the Center's computers, along with a few other things, including "witchcraft, pornography, gambling and hate sites."

Reason: he's heard it is linked to Satanism and that bothers him.

Whoa, nelly.

Problem? Well, I'd hoped not. I typed a letter up explaining my position that the linkage of RPGs to Satanism is about as tenuous as the link between single motherhood and Satanism. I attempted to address what he had likely heard and refute the most common claims, reinforcing the positive benefits of role-playing games and the endorsements of such by places like the National Association for Gifted and Creative Children, all of which he was quite impressed by.

So, we discussed it somewhat, and I had thought I'd gotten through...however, a few hours later, he approached me about it again and was unfortunately back to the "really worried" and "I don't know anything about it, but I have a bad feeling about it" statements and attitudes.

Problem: I'm not really certain where he's coming from...in fact, I'm not certain he really knows where he's coming from.

He asked a few questions such as, "Could it disillusion kids reading it?" And when I asked what he meant, since that was a rather vague query, he couldn't really explain his fears or what he meant by "disillusion."

I've started the draft of a second letter with some Gaming Advocacy URLs and a summary (in my own words) about what RPGs are about and like, but I'm afraid that without knowing what his specific worries are, I won't be able to address them adequately.

Mostly this post is just venting, because the situation bothers me a great deal. Moreso the idea that I'll be forced to block access to certain types of information based on misinformation, and that I am greatly opposed to such blocking.

BTW, this isn't a place of business where certain content has to be filtered in order to keep employees/clients "on track" or to avoid monetary costs to the company, so it isn't really about him "being the boss" and having the final say in the matter of what is allowed on the network...unfortunately, however, that nonetheless is what it boils down to.

To explain, the Center's lab is for research and internet access for anyone who doesn't have it at home...I have people in there working, learning, surfing, chatting and playing. What needs to be filtered becomes an issue of appropriateness, or rather, safety. Pornography, hate-sites, gambling sites and so forth I have no problem with filtering for various reasons having to do with harmful content (or appropriateness in the case of porn, though I personally have nothing against it, per se).

So, anyone have any suggestions? Anyone been in a similar situation? How do you handle advocacy issues when they confront you at the place you work?

(note: Yes, I brought attention to the filtering/banning of "witchcraft" as well, due to issues of religious freedom that a ban on such would invoke, that issue goes hand-in-hand with with this one due to the reasons given, IMO...but I'm concentrating on the RPG aspect in this forum)

Well, we all know that your boss's case is based on misinformation.

But when you can find threads on this very site talking about how fun killing puppies for satan was... you can see where he might get his ideas.

Hmm - sounds suspiciously to me as if they are not his concerns but someone elses... people usually know why they hold a position (or at least, have a suitable rationalisation handy) but in the scenario you decribe, of having the conversation and then finding that he still had fuzzy objections, it may be that he spoke to someone else in the interim. Dunno.

contracycle wrote: Hmm - sounds suspiciously to me as if they are not his concerns but someone elses... people usually know why they hold a position (or at least, have a suitable rationalisation handy) but in the scenario you decribe, of having the conversation and then finding that he still had fuzzy objections, it may be that he spoke to someone else in the interim. Dunno.

Just tell him Satanism is a religion and he'd also have to censor sites dealing with Judaism, Xtianism, Hinduism and all the other -isms.

Then pop him in the mouth with your spiked gauntlet.

Have you asked him where he heard of this connection?

I mean, it's nothing new, but, as has been pointed out, it seems to have died a death in most places that don't have churches which consume Jack Chick pamphlets. I'm not going to deny that roleplaying can take you to some worrying extremes, but that's true of everything, even wholesome things like baseball.

Perhaps the best case you could make is that, while roleplaying is enjoyed by all manner of messed up kids, it's also enjoyed by any number of responsible, reasonable, grownups, all over the world. Thinking about it, The Forge is a pretty good example. We've got business owners, voters, artists, former student politicians, good solid taxpaying folks.

I've been in similar situations, but that's more connected to the fact that I'm a goth, but hell, we get connected to satanism too. All you can do is explain it, really. When it comes down to it, you'll have to decide the exact approach, but I recommend advocacy as gentle as you can manage. Don't be amazed, perturbed, or annoyed in front of him. Calmly, and methodically, talk him through his various concerns.

By 'disillusion', I suspect he means either:

Make kids less concerned about matters of faith - this is a tough one

or

Make kids more tolerant of violence - this is the action film debate

If it's the former, which it might be, point out that there are Christian roleplaying games. Some people play them. Point out that it's a medium of entertainment, a bit like books, movies, and drama, but all at the same time, only a little different. Try the 'cops and robbers' or 'cowboys and indians' defence. Neither of those are likely to convince me that there's not a God in heaven, were that what I believe.

If it's the latter, well, you could go First Amendment on him, but I doubt that would work. Again, your best bet is to convince him that it's a medium of entertainment, that covers the same kind of range and target audience as mainstream Hollywood movies, except, because of the youth [and, ahem, geekiness] of the participants, there's almost no sex, so relationship issues that inform a number of films are replaced with, well violence. Point out that there are extremes, but that they're on each side. Any genre which can support Jared's 'Colorwheel' and 'Kill Puppies For Satan' isn't going to be all bad.

The best advice I can offer you is to sit down, and write that letter, and do the research, but don't send it. Talk to your boss. Ask him where these concerns come from, and why he's expressing them now. I'd say let him sit in on a game you're running, but that way lies danger. What you've got to convince him of, really, is that roleplaying is like any other medium of entertainment, and that it's no more harmful than videogames, movies, books, films, or theatre.

Anyway, whatever you do, good luck.

greyorm,

Fortunately, I've not been in your situation, however, as a librarian I do hear about filtering and censorship issues. If you have not already done so, I suggest that you take a look at the American Library Association web site: www.ala.org It has resources pertaining to intellectual freedom, including internet filtering: www.ala.org/alaorg/oif/ Good luck!

Julie

Hi Raven,

I agree with Gareth - it sounds very much to me as if your boss' concern is what he's hearing (and may have to abide by) from someone else. The priority is not what he wants, thinks, or knows about - the priority is how he can look good to an opinionated someone-else whose regard/money/whatever is important to him.

That's not a good position for you to be in and I hope you can work it out. Reasoned discourse is a very weak tool in such cases.

Best,
Ron

What Ron said.

In fact, this might just be a battle better left unfought. Galling as that may be, there's every chance that by going against this, you are garning more trouble for yourself than it's worth. What do you gain by changing his opinion? If it's simply Internet access to game stuff, well, there's ways around that.

Mike

Thanks for the respones, all.

I'll definitely check out the ALA site (surfing as we speak), so thank you for the heads up on that!

I tend to agree that he might have talked to someone in the interim, but I do have some nagging doubts about that being the scenario...nothing I can define, but such does bear bringing up with him (in asking why he's concerned about it now, after our first conversation). Mostly, I think, I need to get to the heart of the issue: figure out what the specific fears he has are and allay them with fact.

In response to what I get out of this, if this is a battle I should fight or just let go: If it were simply the RPG issue, I would just let it go, but as I mentioned this is tied up in the "witchcraft" issue as well.

That happens to tread directly on the toes of personal faith issues (hey, there's a reason I have the Rev. in front of my name, you know), to say nothing of First Amendment scenarios (which are honestly less important to me than the former, though quite directly tied up with it).

With the criteria for the filters being set as "RPGs are linked to Satanism," if I let the RPG issue go I'll have weakened the same defense I have for religious issues -- the pseudo-religious "link to Satanism" set as the criteria for our filter. I'll be helping pave the road to hell (After all, what's next after that? Harry Potter? Pokemon? Music?..we simply need better criteria and supportive reasoning than that given on our filters).

So, what I gain by changing his opinion is a better set of criteria to set filtering by.

I was thinking more on this last night: have any of you who set-up a campus gaming club run into this issue? ie: "I don't think we can support that because we've heard bad things about it." If so, what did you do?

greyorm wrote: I was thinking more on this last night: have any of you who set-up a campus gaming club run into this issue? ie: "I don't think we can support that because we've heard bad things about it." If so, what did you do?

Hi Raven,

Not a peep of protest has arisen about the campus gaming club for which I'm faculty advisor. Not even over the name "DemonCon" for our (very little) convention last year. The only concern I've ever encountered in the university context was with the term "gaming," which to many people means "gambling."

The reasons are pretty easy, I think:

1) The university itself is aggressively hands-off regarding student clubs and group activities, which ties into its liberal-arts and open-campus and freedom-of-thought general mandate.

2) The club is way under the radar screen in terms of size and activities. Bluntly, a role-playing club isn't an automatically-public thing; we don't "do it" out on the quad regularly or reserve a platform and a megaphone in the cafeteria.

3) The campus mascot / team name is "Blue Demons," and if they can be Catholic and get away with that, then we can be DemonCon and be perfectly patriotic about it, re: campus.

Best,
Ron

Do you have any well-adjusted RPG friends you might be able to introduce him to? Maybe that would be a good thing. Or maybe a modjule or book that doesn't have a lot of really nasty pictures or "contraversial situations" (Maybe one doesn't exist, hmmm...)

If that doesn't work, I suggest you use the secret rituals encoded in your D&D 3rd edition manual to "Polymorph Other" him into an Austrailian Kangaroo Mouse. Hee hee, j/k (But you knew that, right?)

The important thing to remember is that your boss, while misinformed, is really a stand up guy, not a player hater. He just wants the best for his clientel. Thats a good thing.

Good luck,
Travis

Actually, his boss could be a real Satanist helping to shine the spotlight on RPGs so true Satanism is under that much less scrutiny.

Ok, maybe not, but ignorance is a dangerous thing. And if what Ron suspects is true then Raven's boss is the ignorant pawn of someone even more ignorant, hence more dangerous.

Sorry, I have a difficult time not associating the kind of behaviour that Raven's boss exhibits with evil. In it's more virulent form it causes things like the Third Reich and McCarthyism.

I really wish you the best of luck, Raven.

-Chris

O.K., I can't tell you whether to fight it or not. That's something you're going to have to work out from what you know of him. But I can tell you that there are a lot of good resources available, and many of them are from Christian gamers.

I think I would probably ask him what he thinks role playing is; whatever he says, you might want to go ahead and laugh before explaining that it's really just make-believe with rules. There are probably scores of pages that say this; mine is What Is an RPG?, but you probably don't need one to reference.

The Christian Gamers Guild is building a growing list of resources for this sort of thing. I'm afraid that two of the best tools, an FAQ on games for Christians and a list of game designers and publishers who profess faith (of any denomination), are not yet complete. However, there are a list of articles linked from http://www.geocities.com/christian_gamers_guild/chaplain/index.html which you might find useful, and more coming out every month. (At this moment, both Cornerstone Magazine and The Expositor are considering publishing an article in defense of role playing games; quite a few of the links are to e-zines defending fantasy from a Christian perspective.)

As I say, I don't know whether you want to fight this, whether you think showing him that what he's heard is mistaken, or not; but if you do, there are resources to help.

--M. J. Young

(P.S.--if you think it would help, I can get you a copy of the Cornerstone/Expositor article in advance of publication, as long as you don't spread it around.)

greyorm wrote:
I was thinking more on this last night: have any of you who set-up a campus gaming club run into this issue? ie: "I don't think we can support that because we've heard bad things about it." If so, what did you do?

The best approach I can suggest is to point out the breadth of material covered by gaming :

Science Fiction games like Star Wars or Star Trek, pointing out that there are games for these specificaly;

Superhero games in the style of Spiderman and Fantastic Four;

Point out that one rolelaying game, Hero wars, is published by a
member of a native american shamanic tradition. Banning works
such as this on religious grounds is clearly persecution.

Roleplayign games are kile novels. Would he ban all fan fiction
because some of it might be satanic? Would he ban all digital
photographs because some of them might be pornographic?

If there is specific material that he feels uncomfortable about
then you may have to compromise, after all it's not your
computer system either. If you can show you're being reasonable
and are willing to be flexible, it may give him a comfort factor
and encourage him to be more tolerant and open minded too.

For example, it might be reasonable to remove a 'killing puppies for
satan' article from a message board frequented by young children.



Simon Hibbs

erithromycin wrote: If it's the latter, well, you could go First Amendment on him, but I doubt that would work.

I was thinking more on this last night: have any of you who set-up a campus gaming club run into this issue? ie: "I don't think we can support that because we've heard bad things about it." If so, what did you do?

Wart wrote:

erithromycin wrote: If it's the latter, well, you could go First Amendment on him, but I doubt that would work.

It might do - ISTR that in the court case Pat Pulling brought against her son's school (for failing to stop him playing D&D, which she alleged caused his suicide), the judge ruled that roleplaying games are "protected under free-speech provisions of the First Amendment of the Constitution".

Heya all,

I've talked to my boss about the issue again, and what it ends up boiling down to is: The Golden Rule. That is, he who has the gold makes the rules <bu-dum-pa>

Simply, he's worried about our funding. He spoke to a similar Center in a nearby town to see how they handled it, and found their motto is "Nothing Controversial." Since we (and they) are currently funded by a variety of private grants, we need to keep the grant-granters (er?) happy and not stir the waters or the Center loses money when funds are pulled out or denied the next time they are applied for.

(tangent: this sort of shennanigans, btw, is a perfect example of why I'm an avowed communist)

He seems to have been convinced that there's nothing really wrong with Dungeons & Dragons or RPGs, given the extensive evidence I outlined and pointed him towards, but the funding issue has been is main concern, and with good reason.

Second, for those who might think otherwise, I'm more-than-inclined to believe him, and dismiss any possibility of him agreeing-just-to-agree or using one concern to support another.
He's never been anything but honest and straightforward with everyone who works here, he's very upfront about everything with no beating around the bush in regards to anything, and we run a very casual workplace (heck, he cooks huge lunches just for the heck of it at least once a week...and anyone and everyone, employee or no, can come and gobble what they will).

So, that's where the issue stands, and I can deal with this as a criteria for a filter, since it isn't reactionary or moralistic...just terribly, horribly practical.

Again, thanks to everyone for responding, I do believe it helped, since it helped clear up the personal misconceptions of an individual, which is one more individual who won't be unknowingly or ignorantly contributing to the "controversy."

(BTW, for those who care about the other issue -- the witchcraft one -- we pretty much agreed that we couldn't filter it unless we decided to filter all things of a religious nature (not including hate-sites, bogus "satanism" tripe and similar junk))

Well, it's unfortunate that you had to give in on practical considerations, but at least you managed to win the important fight (religious freedom). Roleplaying has always been, and I think will always be, despite WotC's efforts, a sub-cultural phenomenon. It will never become mainstream, and it will always come under unfair attack by those who wish to destroy what they do not understand. It is inevitable.
That doesn't mean that gaming advocacy should give up, though.. We just need to realize that it is a fight we will never win, but instead will have to fight for as long as we want to continue playing and creating our games.

I don't know if I necessarily agree with all that, Lance.
Never...always...pretty strong words.

I don't doubt that role-playing games could easily become a popular, well-known passtime. Or they could fade into obscurity as a cultural phenomenon of the latter half of the 20th century.

After all, women gained equal rights, african-americans can vote and men can fly...the "status quo" is always a passing thing.

Lance thinks we won't win; I think we are winning.

There will always be that handful of nuts who benefit from stirring up trouble; it is unlikely that they will ever go away.

But the opposition to role playing games is not just the nut cases. There have been quite a few intelligent people who got the wrong idea early on and led to others getting the wrong idea--and that seems to be changing. Several influential publications among Evangelical Christians, including at least one influential in anti-cult organizations, are considering the publication of articles defending and even promoting role playing games as a particularly Christian form of entertainment (and not Christian role playing games--ordinary fantasy role play).

I'm waiting to hear which ones are going to actually go through; but there are already articles appearing in Christian magazines in support of fantasy.

The tide may well be turning.

--M. J. Young

If it helps, the satanist that was in our RPG group no longer plays RPGs. Instead, he's working on his degree in Chinese Acupuncture. I don't think he became a satanist through playing or running RPGs.

MJ is correct about the tide turning. The biggest effect is from the aging of the gamer populace. As the wave of gamers that I represent are now in our thirties and forties, even (some older), we are now more in control of some of the same agencies that may have previously caused problems for gaming. This will only increase for a while.

Heaven help us when the Magic CCG munchkins gain power, however.

Mike

Hi folks,

I split off the latest posts about Raven's job into a new thread in Site Discussion. With any luck, given the post I'm about to add to it, you'll see why.

Best,
Ron