Another idea last night:

If you are fighting someone with a wooden sheild (even one with a metal rim), and are using an axe (ok pick maybe too), you can declare attack, wager number of dice, and if they block, after they allocate dice you can choose to try to lodge you axe in there shield.

The mechanics I'm still working on, here's an idea:
You have to pay another point of activation, but their defense target goes up by two for thier roll to avoid getting an axe in the sheild.
(this isn't super thought out, i'm very interested in suggestions)

Effect of having an axe in your shield: You get an emcumberance penalty of 2 CP

Scott

It's an interesting idea. I'm not convinced of an axe in the shield being worth 2 CP on encumbrance, though.

Jake

Perhaps one shall just count it as carrying an extra weapon for encumberance purposes?

This sounds like too harsh a penalty to me. My second thought is... Intentionally disarming yourself in battle doesn't seem like a good idea to me. By choosing to intentionally lodge your weapon in thier shield... this should open you to a counter strike from the weapon in thier other hand on the next exchange IMO with a CP bonus for them and defense neg's for you... All that being said... I have no experience with that. But i think thats how the wingometer would read in the middle of a game session. 2 things to consider... How big is the AXE? Did the AXEMAN lose 2 CP for wielding it? stuck in the shield, the heavier end is near the player (easier to move this way)


Anyway these are my thoughts on this novel approach to combat. I can certainly see thrown axes being stuck on shields.

The thing is that I think it would be pretty easy to dislodge, as the axe is a lever in nature...yeah, it'd slow things down, though. I'm thinking like this:

Terrain roll of 7+attacker's successes to dislodge
+2 Block DTN so long as it is lodged.
-1 die for Movement

Jake

Unless it is a VERY big axe that sounds too harsh to me Jake.

Especially if the blocker doesn't get an advantage on his next attack.

Annoying? yes. Tiring long term? (endurance checks) Yes

But to immeadiately assess those mods seems too high to me. And that change in DTN. I'd think an EN*ST/2 check vs 4+Wt of axe every 3 exchanges before it kicks in.

It isn't the size of the axe, it's the length or moment arm that makes it unwieldy to have loged in the shield. I mention this because the Romans used a similar tactic. They would throw their pilums at shielded enemies not so much to injure them, but to lodge them in the opponent's shield. Making it practcally useless.

Interestingly, too, the pilum had a soft long spearhead that intentionally bent when it hit so that it couldn't be thrown back if it failed to lodge.

I think this is a valid tactic, and I think that a 2CP penalty for an axe mekes sense. Perhaps more (certainly more for a spear sticking out of it).

Mike

I'm familiar with the pilum... an axe is different on several levels however. It Wasn't that the shields were useless on an individual basis... more that they had a long shaft coming out at nearly a right ange that IMO negated the benefit of shield wall type defence... To add to this effect the shaft would swing making balance a more difficult thing. And those poles from the wooden section would bang into your buddies on defence.... much less the case with an axe most of the time.
The head of the axe will not turn in the shield, thus the axe handle will not swing. To effectively stick the axe into the shield like a pilum the angle will be almost 90 degrees... (a shield block was specified even if angled, the block will be almost parralell to the shaft)) the pilum shaft stretches out behind the head to provide the momentum for the strike and the bending of the shaft. The Axe handle is also 90 degrees to the head... so axe handles (and pick) will be close to parralell to the shield.... this minimizes any leverage effects of thier weight.

Also since the Pilum was a thrown weapon, it didn't leave you right up against your opponent unarmed. The romans in thier disciplined shield walls would happily wait for the additional weight of the shields of thier opps to take effect. And your right, a buddy couldn't just pull the pilum out of a shield like an ave could easily be.


I hope this makes sence as to why i don't believe Melee Axes should have the same effects as a pilum. Also the shields typicaly encounteres might be better than the pilum faced.... I don't remember the special I watched on the pilum real well so this may not be the case. Remember the Pilum strategy went away.... I think it was because of better shields... but i don't recall why for sure. Was a series called ARMS and ARMOR i think. done by an english museum.. they had awesome combat renactments.

Ok i've thought about it some more... the shields would be almost unusable with a pilum...

But that is largely because the pilum swings around.the pilum didn't stick in the shielr, it passed through the shield with the head shape preventing it from being pulled out. the soft iron shaft bent to make it unusable as a return missle if it missed. this bending was caused by the leveraged weight of the wodden shaft section.

Anyway all these factors change in the presence of an axe's design. If th axe handle extends out away from the shield the axe could easily be dislodged by using the handle as a modified club attack... wouldn't do much damage but would clear the axe. Or hitting the handle with your weapon would knock it out. the axe is only efectively stuck if the handle is close to parallel to the shield face.

It is harsh, but I'm thinking of at least 3' of pole here, and lodged really solid. Fact is, I don't think it's a smart tactic, as it's pretty easy to open up (maybe the dislodge TTN is too high). Plus, it leaves the initial attacker weaponless.

Ooh, one more problem. Shield users are trained to deflect, not to "take the blow" on the shield. That being the case, it could be pretty difficult to lodge anything in a shield.

Jake

Jake Norwood wrote: It is harsh, but I'm thinking of at least 3' of pole here, and lodged really solid. Fact is, I don't think it's a smart tactic, as it's pretty easy to open up (maybe the dislodge TTN is too high). Plus, it leaves the initial attacker weaponless.

Ooh, one more problem. Shield users are trained to deflect, not to "take the blow" on the shield. That being the case, it could be pretty difficult to lodge anything in a shield.

Jake

The axe would certainly be less effective. I was thinking like CP5 penalty for the pilum (just drop the shield). And two for the axe. Maybe just one? Eh.

As to the validity of the tactic of disarming oneself at close range, that's left to the weilder to decide. Would it be trained? Proably not. But not impossible to do if you felt it needed to be done.

Possibly more important, what about weapons getting stuck in shields accidentally?

Mike

I brought up this issue as an asside at an earlier time. the main issue was shield durability. The result was that noone really wanted the rules on shields getting hacked up, Wanted to include stuck weapons. Since it isn't addressed... I decided but didn't post that a fumbled attack AND a FUMBLED block would have a weapon stuck in shield.

It would also have me the Slaphappy seneschal laughing my but off.

-John

Ok i was under the impression it was a common tactic between 400 and 1000 to use an axe to render your oponents shield useless, I appear to be wrong. I also thought frankish throwing axes had the same purpose as pilum but see the link below for a correction.

http://www.staff.ncl.ac.uk/nikolas.lloyd/weapons/franc.html

the Frankish and Anglo-Saxon verson of the pilum is called an Angon. Or so i have been led to belive.

Scott

svenlein wrote: Ok i was under the impression it was a common tactic between 400 and 1000 to use an axe to render your oponents shield useless, I appear to be wrong. I also thought frankish throwing axes had the same purpose as pilum but see the link below for a correction.

http://www.staff.ncl.ac.uk/nikolas.lloyd/weapons/franc.html

the Frankish and Anglo-Saxon verson of the pilum is called an Angon. Or so i have been led to belive.

Scott

one of the better ways to use an axe to beat a sheild is have the blade edge extend down so the under arch forms nice high arch then so simply bring the axe down hooking the shield between the back of the edge and the haft then pull down and towards the axe wielder pulling the shield into an untenable position then you lift the axe high and chop into the unprotected foe.



Digging in a shield only works if youve got a 2h axe and get it well in there, but then you may as well pul out and hit it again to break the thing if you went in that hard,

Now if your talk was about using an axe to BREAK bits off the shield making it less useful (huumm thinking 13th warrior duel now)
then we are talklng trouble from an axe

now this last tactic opens some hope... but not much... To pull the shield down... I assume you're using your weight to pull down the shield. with the AXE (probably have to be two handed usage)... this is going to make you off balance to defend against the return stroke. It will also put you at a fairly short range. and do no damage. It could be somewhat effective to take the shield away from the defender... for an ally to attack. when you raise the axe to prepare a strike though, your opponent will have his shield back. Also this would have little effect on a rounded shield except for you to stumble and probably fall as the axe slipps off.

Depends on the type of axe, whether or not you'll be in range for an easy attack. A poleaxe will generally keep you out of range, though anything shorter, I would agree with you John.

my mistake, i think of pole-axe as a pole arm, not an axe