Yes, I made a post over at rpg.net.

Yes, a bunch of people started throwing personal insults at me (most of whom haven't read my work or even know what I look like).

Yes, that is the reason I love The Forge. Thank you to Ron and Clinton and everybody else. You have a wonderful, friendly environment to discuss disagreements.

Take care,
John

PS: I received about a dozen private "John, I think you're cool!" e-mails since I posted. Those I count. The rest, I discount.

I won't throw insults, just a gripe:

I wanna be 17 and Immortal.

I wanna rumble.

I want my Neverland, John.

:)

John you fetid rat-bastard, how dare you show your disgusting visage here! I thought we were rid of your retched presence! Had I known that you were going to be allowed to return I'd have revoked my subscription here! Your mother was a Hamster and your father stank of elderberry!

Mike

P.S. Don't want anyone thinking that we're getting soft here at The Forge. ;-) Sorry John. How are ya?

Gosh, the Forge even gets a better class of Flaming Trolls...

deadpanbob wrote: Gosh, the Forge even gets a better class of Flaming Trolls...

Hey, John, been tempted to write at all lately? Might that also be a secret reason for lurking on site (he said, hoping to heaven that it was true)?

Mike

I've still got my eyes out for a copy of Orkworld. I haven't read any of your gaming stuff (just the Last Paladin fiction). I'm guessing I can't order from Wicked Press anymore, what with the website down and all?

Granted, ebay has a copy for 10 bucks (after shipping), but I'd rather support you directly.

Heya John, glad to see you're hanging about!

Oh, and Mike, you misspelled "wretched"...as written, apparently John carries his upchucked 'presence' around with him, possibly in a jar. Or maybe it just follows him around like a lost puppy. Either way, it's a pretty disturbing image, but great as an idea for a Sorcerer character.

(Figured I'd continue the mock troll-flamewar -- for those keeping track, that was the the move known as, "Ha, you can't spell!" ;D )

I'm now going to go design a Sorcerer character based off John Wick and his horrid, upchucked presence. What sorts of powers should I give it?

John Wick wrote: Yes, that is the reason I love The Forge. Thank you to Ron and Clinton and everybody else. You have a wonderful, friendly environment to discuss disagreements.

James wrote: RPGnet is a sewer. A popular, heavily-trafficked sewer, but it's still a sewer. It's nearly impossible to get any sort of real, substantive discussion going on

Yeah, this is true on more and more forums. I was chatting with someone the other day about forums in a different industry, and between the two of us we could only count a few forums total--about one or two per "industry" that actually promoted thought on the topic they claimed to hold. And the forge is nice.

Oh, and John, I published my game, The Riddle of Steel, largely due to some encouragment you gave me in an email where I wrote "I've got this game, what should I do with it..." I felt dumb for writing it at the time, but it was before I knew about any RPG websites, but I knew I liked L5R, 7th Sea, and especially Orkworld...

Anyway, thanks.

Jake Norwood

James wrote: ...thanks to the confluence of moderators who don't moderate...

Dudes, dudes,

All this just a couple of months after I requested a "Be more fuckin' nice dammit" policy toward other RPG sites, most especially RPG.net.

John's right about his treatment there, in my view, but I'm not going to let this forum start trading invective either.

And yes, it is moderated, now. You should have seen it two years ago. My call is to give credit where it's due, for improvement, and RPG.net has improved immeasurably.

Best,
Ron

Hey John and the Forge gang. Had to add my rant...

Yes, RPGnet's forums are sewers. I lost my temper there again the other day. I was posting in the ads/promos forum about my Action Exploits Diceless Rules and that I was going to release BTRC's CORPS background for it (of course I didn't mention BTRC). Someone had to immediately point out that I might be infringing on BTRC's copyright. So I lost it. If I'm posting it, I have license to do so. I'm not a gimp. Posting in Ads/Promos does not mean that I am soliciting for opinion or IP advice. I know, temper, temper.... If I want advice I come to The Forge. You can easily have an intelligent conversation here.

Anyway, John, my friend used to belong to some discussion list you moderated (L5R I assume). He used to tell me about the stupid questions and how you used to answer them. He used to laugh at your responses all the time. He loved them. I caught a few too.

I have never seen one person get bad-mouthed that much. Other gaming companies should never bad mouth colleagues or even rivals for that matter. It's such a shame about the rampant anarchy there.

First, yes, the RPG.net fora are moderated. Moslty it consists of taking posts that have little to do with RPGs and shunting them off to some mystical place called "Tangency" where I believe a lot of the cooler RPG.netters now hang out almost exclusively in some sort of self imposed exile.

That said, I have noticed a distinct increase in the number of untrammeled discussions there. And a sentiment amongst posters as a whole that the trolling and flaming is no longer as tolerated as it once was. The signal to noise ratio is certainly lower than at the Forge, but as always the total information content there remains rather high with all the traffic. If you can sift through it there are actually some good discussions going on.

For instance I actually got into a pretty decent discussion of the definition of RPGs there along with, of all people, Gliechman. And there was an interesting thread on the use of flowery language when playing fantasy games.

Don't count RPG.net out. There's still a lot going on over there. If you haven't been there in a while, I suggest going over and taking another look. With a crtical eye, but an unbiased one. Some people seem to be able to exist there as easily as here. Ask Max (AKA Balbinus). He frequents both with equal aplomb. He asks questions respectfully there, and gets (for the most part) respectful answers.

Anyway, enough about that.

John, thanks for the teaser. Any chance you can give us more info? Will you at least let us know when the new site is up?

Mike

Everyone,

Certain people on RPG.net - and certain people here, and certain people everywhere, for that matter - are ill-tempered and unintelligent and hurt conversation, and trash on others.

I saw what was said about John, and to be honest, I pretty much stopped it there with one good pointy private message.

I'm stopping it here. For the record, RPG.net is an incredibly valuable resource that's been there long before the Forge. Some horrible people said some horrible things about John, but they aren't the entire site.

John, the thread you started was extremely nice, and means a lot to me. Thank you.

RPG.net ...

Isn't academic.

[Edited to remove passive aggressive remark. It sucked and came off badly. Not what I'd intended: Argument on RPG.net by virtue of sometimes being infantile can also sometimes be more frank. ]

Isn't censored/moderated.

Reflects a lot of people who play the most popular games in the industry--and, more importantly, like them and think they are well suited to their purpose of roleplaying.

It's nicer and smaller than Usenet (man, if you think RPG.net can get nasty, try freaking usenet).

There are some bright people there.

I've seen some of the best GNS discussions going there.

I've seen some of the best RPG-philosophy discussions going there.

I've never recieved a nasty Private Message on RPG.net.

They've reviewed one of my modules.

They might review my game (something that will likely never happen here).

If I wanted to post a review they would host it.

It's not The Forge--isn't trying to be, and shouldn't be. If RPG.net had a booth at Gen Con, I wouldn't set up shop there.

But it isn't "a sewer." It's hotter, faster, and bigger than The Forge (also cruder, coarser, and has lots of jerks like almost everywhere else on the Internet). If you don't like it consider that lots of smart, polite, and respected people do.

Edited to note:
I've found RPG.net very weak as a game *design* forum--it's trying but, for me, it's been weak.

I posted the essays about fault tolerant game design here and got lots of thoughtful feedback. On RPG.net it was moved to Ads/Promotion (essentially they saw it as pure advertising).

Unmoderated (and it *is* essenitally unmoderated) forums have a host of problems, all of which RPG.net has in spades.

Essentially the two are different (RPG.net is far more populist, far more mainstream, and often a good deal more honest). None of these are inherently faults or virtues.

Also: Those people who flamed John are morons. It's hard to ignore them--I know. But man, every idiot who posted venom on that thread just made themselves look bad. It said absolutely nothing about John. I found it regretable that it happened at all.

-Marco

Some horrible people said some horrible things about John, but they aren't the entire site.

But it isn't "a sewer." It's hotter, faster, and bigger than The Forge (also cruder, coarser, and has lots of jerks like almost everywhere else on the Internet). If you don't like it consider that lots of smart, polite, and respected people do.

Hiya,

Speaking of forum moderation, the Forge is moderated - and above, in this very thread, both moderators have spoken up quite clearly. However, subsequent posters are not listening.

Pigames, in particular - there are several issues I have with your last post, but the only one that matters here is that the topic has been moderated, and further discussion of what kind of sewer, so to speak, is not permitted. It's not your authority to say "let's drop it" when we moderators have already done so. I recognize your dismay at the thread in question, but your desire to get in a last word or whatever is something you need to self-regulate.

People get surprised at how unbending I can be about this stuff. I'll lock this thread upon one more phrase of invective, no matter how it's qualified.

Best,
Ron

No invective here.

While I am the first person to get in line to declare that censor ship is the most insidious evil that can be allowed to be perpetrated, I'm also the first to get in line to voice my appreciation for moderators who actually moderate in a topical / membership oriented forum.

Skillfull moderation is a very difficult and time consuming task (both reasons why many choose not to do it), but the Forge is one of the best moderated sites I visit.

Unlike EXTREMELY moderated sites (like the Babylon 5 discussion forum) where the moderator actually reads all posts before they get posted and only posts those he wants (including not posting posts if they are similar to others already made) and unlike extremely laxly moderated sites (like RPG.net or most computer game forums), the Forge has struck a very delicate balance between heavy handed and anything goes.

This is due largely to the efforts of our two moderators, but also largely to the efforts of the now nearly 900 members and 100 - 200 or so active posters to behave in a rational, mature, and responsible manner. In other words...like adults.

So, thanks to our moderators for moderating. Thanks to the memberships for being moderate.

Moderators also can be responsible for the shaping of the nature of the forum without directly censoring anyone. Hopefully, moderators are both thermometers of public sense as well as leaders within the community.

Jake Norwood wrote:
Oh, and John, I published my game, The Riddle of Steel, largely due to some encouragment you gave me in an email where I wrote "I've got this game, what should I do with it..." I felt dumb for writing it at the time, but it was before I knew about any RPG websites, but I knew I liked L5R, 7th Sea, and especially Orkworld...

Anyway, thanks.

Jake Norwood

On the moderation issue, rpg.net and the Forge have very different approaches to moderation each of which I believe function well for the site in which they are used.

Rpg.net has a minimal moderation policy, introduced relatively recently. A thread is pulled or a poster banned only for very narrow reasons. An irrelevant thread gets moved to the tangency forum, which is for non-rpg related discussions. A particularly racist or otherwise bigoted thread may get deleted, although often the forum regulars will just make the poster wish they'd been deleted. Being banned only happens for repeated posting of items of sheer bigotry, racist rantings for example.

The intent, as far as I understand it, is to be as close to unmoderated as is practical.

Here, the intent appears to me quite different. The Forge is closely and actively monitored and Ron does not hesitate to close down threads he views as unproductive. This leads to a politer and more focussed but less free wheeling atmosphere IMO.

The rpg.net approach works there because the main forum is a general rpg forum. Anything rpg related goes. It is a free for all and you have to hold your own. I like it for that but it does mean sometimes you take a lot of noise with your signal.

The Forge approach works because this site has a purpose, discussions are focussed and work towards progressing issues or game designs. Most posters come to the Forge to explore ideas and develop stuff. The close moderation and tight focus help that. The same approach would of course be a disaster on rpg.net, where a thread about which super hero game is coolest is entirely fine because sometimes people just like to chat about which games they like just for the sake of the chatting.

The JW thread was awful, I requested its deletion in fact. After all, I actually started that thread and I was embarassed by what it had turned into. Looking back I should have known that would happen but it certainly wasn't my intent.

So, John, sorry about my part in creating the thread where you got quite brutally flamed in my view without reason. Hope things are cool where you are and life is good.

As to the two sites, they have different purposes and goals. I post pretty much every day at rpg.net and am almost never flamed (ironically the JW thread was one of the few where I was), it can be a bear pit but I find a lot of those who find it so bring their own bears.

Of course, there are also some assholes with hobbyhorses who piss all over certain threads. Any rpg.net regular dreads certain topics arising because we all know that the same posters as last time will make the same egregious flames. So it goes, it's a price you pay for the freewheeling atmosphere.

On a last note, I'd like to see Gaming Outpost back on its feet though I doubt we'll see that now. Rpg.net and the Forge are both cool IMO but a third site would do the hobby no harm at all.