Well folks, don't think it can't happen to you.

I just lost my job over the issues being discussed here.
Not because my boss wanted me gone, not because we have any personal issues about how to run the lab, but because it is literally not safe for me to work there anymore.

Yesterday, my life was threatened.
This morning the back window of my car was smashed in.
(yes, police reports have been filed about both incidents)

A volunteer at the Center apparently found (or stole from private employee files) the memo discussing RPGs, religion and filtering criteria. He then whipped a posse of parents into frothing fear and hate of the "Satanist" in their midst who is "corrupting the minds of their children" and damning my boss for his "immoral" and "unethical" act of hiring me.

Currently a petition is heard to be circulating demanding my removal for the above reasons, and possibly the removal of my boss for hiring me as well as my coworkers (who all had a say in hiring me). There is also a letter which indicates litigation is going to be brought against me for unspecified reasons.

Anyone who wants to read the even more awful details of all this can surf over to the "Updates" section of my website and be stunned at the behavior of folks who call themselves "Christian."

(And I hope my Christian friends and others of similar religious persuasion on the Forge realize I am not and do not intend to slam them or their beliefs...just the hypocrites)

PS -- Moderators, sorry if this post is off-topic...I figured with the RPG elements of the issue and the nature of the thread, it wouldn't be. Feel free to move it if necessary.

greyorm wrote: Well folks, don't think it can't happen to you.

My goodness.

I just wanted to offer my sympathies, and complete bewilderment.

I really think there may be no way to advocate gaming to people who are so motivated by base level fear motivations. People get very scared regarding their children, and some people's upbringing and nature may preclude logical discussion or understanding of many issues, especially where ethics are dogmatic over relativist.

Misinformation and mob mentality can carry things a long way. I think any words of encouragement may fall pale, as it would be a truly massive task to attempt any education or action against that sort of mentality.

Jeremy

Clarification: I agree with Jeremy's above post, when he says that as far as some people are concerned, nothing will convince them that gaming (or your religion, as from your blog it appears that this is the area where the problems are arising) is harmless.

When I said "take action", I meant take action to stop this bigot (and when it boils down to it that's what this person seems to be) poisoning other people with his attitude.

W.

This is very distressing, epsecially as I fear I'm utterly powerless to help.

And I'm not going to advise anyone on whether or not to fight back, when I'm not personally on the front lines with them.

But if you do... this matter goes far beyond role playing game advocacy. Perhaps the support organization you should be talking to is the ACLU.

Letters-to-the-editor of support in your local newspaper can be very helpful in such situations, unless the newspaper itself is hopelessly biased. A reporter willing to be fair can be even more so. You should make contact with them, because you can be sure the witch hunters already have. You have some influence, albeit small, to influence whether the headline comes out "Satanist Exposed at Community Center" or "Homegrown Terrorists Threaten Community Center Administrator."

Associating the threats and vandalism with terrorism (which in fact they are, by any definition) can be particularly effective in the current times.

And if you don't... well, the state I live in purged a lot of this crap out of its system in 1692. (I was a little concerned when my wife and I moved to my present town, a much smaller town than any I'd lived in before. Neighbors were asking what seemed to be slightly pointed lifestyle questions. To my relief, it turned out they were asking because one of the families on the street is a gay couple and all our new neighbors wanted to make sure we weren't going to be bigots about it.) Care for a change of scenery? The weather's much nicer too. :-) (Be prepared for some serious sticker shock in the real estate market, though.)

One of my sisters lives in Minnesota, in an area I always thought was pretty rural but it's a lot closer to Minneapolis than you must be. Her husband owns Dreamhaven Books which sells SF, graphic novels, and alternative fiction. (Not RPGs, but plenty of other stuff with scary demon graphics on the covers.) They organize SF and fantasy conventions, hold public book signings with Neil Gaiman and other writers, and he even published the original XXXenophile (X-rated SF) comic book series. They've never had any trouble of this kind. I guess the question you have to consider is, do the terrorists represent the secret sentiment of the rest of your community, or are they the ones out of place?

- Walt

Thanks for the support, all. We are taking steps to deal with this, because I'm not letting someone terrorize my family and publically slander me like this and get away with it.

But whether this is community sentiment or not remains to be seen. I don't believe it is. I've never had any problems with anyone else around here, and everyone else I work with is shocked and dismayed at the actions and the attitudes of this group.

I'll look into the newspaper angle, possibly talk to some reporters. Because, honestly, these folks just ruined the Center's computer program and self-guided adult education program...they don't have another lab tech capable of administration and doing all the network wizardry they required for it, or working the hours they need.

I don't know if they'll be able to find another one, I was the only qualified applicant when I was hired, though I really hope they can.

The tech they have left can only work part time, and while he can easily get the skills, he's easily smart enough, he doesn't have the associated experience, and he doesn't have the skills for the time being.

So, these folks went and shot themselves in the foot, along lots more people not involved in their crusade. It's...disgusting...it's selfish and narrow-minded. Ugh...ok, I'll stop.

As well, whether this is simply a religion issue or also involves D&D remains to be seen, since the folks making the accusations are claim to have evidence of some kind about my attempts to "convert their children" or whatever. What that evidence actually is, they aren't saying, which could mean they don't have any.

The only possible thing in question that was lying around to be grabbed up was some RPG notes along with the selfsame in regards to the censorship issue; so, for the moment, I'm going to assume they're taking the absurd track and equating it all with "Satanism" and D&D is their tactic alongside religion.

And Walt, next time I stop in at Dreamhaven, I'll have to say "Hi" to your brother-in-law. Small world (I don't frequent the store, but I have been in there a couple times when we're in the Cities visiting relatives. They have a great selection of stuff).

We're a few hours out from there, in the land of rednecks and beer-guzzling, where disproven hysteria like this just hangs on in small pockets.
Even so, a number of the folks at the office were completely blown-away, and stated they didn't know D&D was such a controversial issue.

And heck, the local bookstore used to carry "Dragon" and an assortment of RPG products, and still carry all the TSR novels and etc, even though the owners were of the likeable "old prudish biddy" type, very much like my grandma, so...

greyorm wrote:
As well, whether this is simply a religion issue or also involves D&D remains to be seen, since the folks making the accusations are claim to have evidence of some kind about my attempts to "convert their children" or whatever. What that evidence actually is, they aren't saying, which could mean they don't have any.

The only possible thing in question that was lying around to be grabbed up was some RPG notes along with the selfsame in regards to the censorship issue; so, for the moment, I'm going to assume they're taking the absurd track and equating it all with "Satanism" and D&D is their tactic alongside religion.

No, Mike, nothing like that. Nothing that might be taken the wrong way, well, by rational folk, anyway. After all, the logic we're dealing with here is simply that I'm a "Satanist" because I'm not Christian. Add to this that I'm Wiccan (ie: A witch! Look at the nose! -- They put this on me!) and that's all this individual needed to declare a righteous crusade against the unholy infidel.

And further consider the psychology of the sort of individual that threatens someone's life (in front of a three year old, no less) and vandalizes their property. We aren't talking about some regular Joe who is merely misguided or misinformed here, someone who just "got the wrong idea" from something.

greyorm wrote:
And further consider the psychology of the sort of individual that threatens someone's life (in front of a three year old, no less) and vandalizes their property. We aren't talking about some regular Joe who is merely misguided or misinformed here, someone who just "got the wrong idea" from something.

Hello,

I moved all these posts to their own thread, in this forum, because I'd like all of the Forge members to participate in this discussion.

Specifically: there is no existing role-playing equivalent to the Comic Book Legal Defense Fund, which is the institution that helps comics retailers from going out of business when targeted by anti-comics groups. The CBLDF accepts donations from comics publishers which go into a kitty to help with legal costs - which is how the retailers are vulnerable; the attacking groups know that they can't sustain a real court battle.

This situation is different in venue, but it is exactly the same issue in terms of legal issues. And is there a TSR fund set aside to help those who are victimized due to their TSR-based hobby? Of course not.

I suggest that Raven is being thrown to the wolves in response to actions that are reminiscent of the Klan. I suggest that his employers are "looking good" by sending the "deviant" packing, in the vain hope that they will no longer be a target (a false hope) for the whoevers. What Raven needs is representation.

Well, I'm not a lawyer. But I do know this: that we, the folks at the Forge, know lawyers. We also represent a far more well-connected, societally-savvy cross-section of gamers than can be found in most places.

So put your heads together!

Who knows the right people?
Who is the right legal counsel, even for consultation?
Who can provide the right information? (not bullshit speculation, please)
Who can provide names for people who can provide that information?
Who can provide whatever small monetary support, if necessary?

Think about it. This is what the Forge is for. Look around you; we are the only body of role-players who can do this.

Resisting discrimination is not a matter of reasonably explaining just where the power-mongering terror-monkeys are "going wrong." It's a matter of acquiring political power of your own. And we have access to that power, dammit. Most of us are post-thirties white men - absolutely nothing stops us from using that power, in the form of connections, contacts, support, and information.

It's time we did so.

My task, this following week, is learning how to set up a legal defense fund such as the CBLDF. It's also to hit every lawyer I know with the relevant questions.

All other suggestions - and most especially help! - are vastly appreciated.

Best,
Ron

Mike,

The individual who started this is well known at the Center by the families who use it, and liked by many (though not all); but he's also lost a number of close friends over this issue, who can see through all this with objective reason. Unfortunately, he's also villanized anyone who won't side with him as being morally bankrupt and thus "the enemy."

I'm certain that his supporters have no idea about the other things which have occurred (the threats and vandalism, et al) or he'd likely be short a few more supporters, because I have a feeling that a number of them would take a second look and say, "Whoa! Wait a minute here...something isn't right."

Regardless, what this guy has going for him is mob hysteria, plain and simple.

Couple paranoia with ignorance and parental fear, add that we're dealing with people who've been taught and heartily believe "D&D is evil and the work of the devil" and "witches want to brainwash your kids via Harry Potter, Pokemon and <insert your flavor of the week here>," and who also believe quite sincerely in the actual existance of demons and the unshakable truth of their own convictions, put someone they trust as the main initiator and facilitator, and you have something that takes on a life of its own.

Further factor in that many of the families we're talking about here are at the Center specifically because of mental illness or substance abuse issues, and most of them are not well educated, and I think you can see how this all quickly gels into a modern-day witch-hunt. (Heck, even without either of the above factors)

Remember, not everyone who pointed out witches during the Salem witch-trials was short on judgement or rationality, but hysteria has a way of seeping into the cracks and coloring everything...and look at Nazi Germany, the whole country went Nazi-crazy and was swept with anti-Semitic fervor; normally sane, rational, decent human beings rode a tide of patriotic fantaticism and it took a horrid, bloody war to finally put a stop to it.

By their own judgement, they ARE acting rationally. They're responding to a threat, protecting themselves and their children from someone awful. And of course, if that someone awful tries to defend themself, it's all just smoke and lies.
At least that's the way they see it.

But if you step outside the situation and view it rationally, you can see all this. Embroiled in the midst of such, it's difficult to do so, and like the majority, they have no reason to doubt or re-examine what they already believe to be true.

Just the words "D&D" and "witch" cause ingrained automatic responses to trigger. It doesn't matter the context, it doesn't matter what else is included besides those words, those associations are the point of focus. And with the associations being what they are, anything or anyone that attempts to alter those associations is misled or lying because they're attempting to protect or defend something bad.

So, it isn't because these folks are suffering from lapses in judgement, it isn't because they're incapable of rational examination, it's just simple human psychology -- they're working from an entirely different set of assumptions than I or you are, and to them, those assumptions aren't assumptions at all, they're valid facts.

D&D is a game full of Satanic influence.
Real Satanists are out to lure their kids into "witchcraft."
Anyone involved in either are possessed or guided by actual demons.

Such "facts" are blatantly false to us, but we don't believe in Satan (or, well, some of us...not to marginalize anyone), real actual demons, or Satanic conspiracies.

Is D&D full of Satanic influence?
No. Of course not. But wait...it has magic, pagan gods and unholy things. To some people, that IS Satanic influence. You see, it's like dealing with an entirely different culture.

For these folks to admit it doesn't would require them to entirely reject their world-view and rewrite it -- which, unfortunately, is far more difficult than it sounds -- simply, it would cause a crisis of faith. And in such situations, most will go with what they believe to be true already, instead of undertaking the difficult altering of their perceptions and beliefs -- the brain simply doesn't like rewiring itself unless absolutely necessary, in response to stresses that can't be ignored.

Well, whew.
I hope that helps answer why the situation isn't simply as black and white as we would all wish it could be. If it were, the contents of the memo that is believed to have started all this would have been enough to forestall the situation, since it referenced facts from various sites and organizations about studies done on D&D, its effects and so forth.

As I said, assuming this started it, and assuming this memo was passed around to the involved families of the Center, or if it is just the word of this one volunteer that these individuals are going on.

Ron Edwards wrote: I suggest that Raven is being thrown to the wolves in response to actions that are reminiscent of the Klan. I suggest that his employers are "looking good" by sending the "deviant" packing, in the vain hope that they will no longer be a target (a false hope) for the whoevers.

Hey Raven,

I wish you and your family the best. I also want to say that I admire the self-control and clear headedness with which you are confronting this situation. If I were in your shoes I think that I would have lost my cool.

Here is a short list of resources you may want to examine if you are considering legal action.

Trial Lawyers for Public Justice
http://www.tlpj.org

Wiccan Education and Anti-Defamation Groups
http://www.religioustolerance.org/witchcr2.htm

Tolerance.Org (particularly the listing of human rights groups by state)
http://www.tolerance.org

Southern Poverty Law Center
http://www.splcenter.org


Any meager support I can give is yours.

-Chris

And some useful gaming-related organisations:

CAR-PGA: www.theescapist.com

GAMA: http://www.gama.org/

I think one of them (I can't remember if it's GAMA or CAR-PGA) have volunteers willing to come along and help out in situations where gamers are being persecuted in this way.

I have (CARPGa chairman) Paul Cardwell's e-mail address, and can get in touch with him, if you give me contact information (e-mail or private message is good) for him to reach you, if you think they may be able to help. Although I've worked with him on other projects, I don't actually know that much about what they do.

I'd sue the guy for slander, and include lost wages in your damage claim. You might get the center to sue him, also, as he has put their funding at risk, so they might be able to show significant monetary damages as well. For slander to stick, given that you are not a public figure, you only need to prove that he said something about you which was false to which you personally object. The fact that you lost your job over the matter adds a lot of clout to your personal objection, so the only thing you'd really have to prove was that he said something false about you (which would include his claim that your role playing game involvement is satanism).

I have a Juris Doctore, but do not currently practice law, and this should not be construed as legal advice in the technical sense of that term.

--M. J. Young

Hello,

Here is a for-instance scenario.

1) A Jewish employee of a community-help center has his life threatened, to his face, by a volunteer at that center, who also calls him a "filthy Kike." The employee also has his car window smashed the next day.

2) The center's manager fires the employee, citing "It's for the good of the center and better for your safety."

There are names for these kind of events. They include slander, defamation, assault, discrimination, and harassment. They are fully actionable.

So, I'm not interested in justifying the "families' outlooks." I'm not interested in "seeing the boss' perspective." Frankly, I'm astounded that anyone would waste a moment on trying to do so - these actions are not tolerable in our society. It doesn't matter what these people feel; feelings are not the issue.

Raven's former employer owes him money and a written, official apology. The fellow who assaulted him needs to go to jail and face charges. I think these points are rock-solid and rooted in the foundation of our society. I can't imagine any other outlook on this issue - or discussion of any other aspect of the issue - that deserves a moment of attention.

Best,
Ron

Best,
Ron

I'm going to stick in an explicitly Christian perspective/advice, since nobody has ventured forth yet. I don't claim to speak for all Christians, but I am a member of the largest protestant denomination in the U.S, and there's a couple of points of church doctrine that the church has made sure everyone is pretty clear on:

1. We get along with other religions. We might disagree with them, but we don't antagonise them, we don't preach against them, and we don't take action against them or their members.

2. Violence is as a means to an end is right out. It made God's top 10 list. Given the context, I don't think he was fooling around.

The said, I thnk another good course of action might be to discuss these issues with area clergy (including your own). I suspect that even Wisconsin Synod Lutherans aren't going to be keen on this sort of thing. It's not much, but it does start to work at that power leverage.

Very well argued Ron. Makes me really proud to be a member of the Forge.

Clay's advice is pretty interesting in that it could be used as a means of damage control. If you get the local church to say it's ok, that might help taking the heat off the community center which might be a strategic as well as considerate thing to do (I'm thinking about the people has needs for it)

Pale Fire wrote: Clay's advice is pretty interesting in that it could be used as a means of damage control. If you get the local church to say it's ok, that might help taking the heat off the community center which might be a strategic as well as considerate thing to do (I'm thinking about the people has needs for it)

Pale Fire wrote: If you get the local church to say it's ok, that might help taking the heat off the community center which might be a strategic as well as considerate thing to do

Here's what my wife said in a chat:

Brandy wrote:
I think it would be pertinent for the center to phrase it in a way that they were trying to protect the children. Legally, they should be informing the parents if some act of violence was performed on their grounds. I doubt they'd do it, at this point, but it would cover their rear ... they'd be informing parents. Kind of a warning of potential disturbance at the center. I can't formulate this properly in my mind.

Last year there was an alleged act of abuse on the playground at our school. One student was doing something inappropriate with another student. The school, to cover their butt, sent a letter home informing parents. You see what I mean? The center could send a letter home stating that an act of violence (harassment and destruction of property) was performed in their parking lot (it was the parking lot, right?)

That way... the community would know what this "ring-leader" had done (violent acts) without the center directly pointing fingers. They'd be covering their butt legally... and uncovering his. (the ringleader's)

Hi Zak,

This center has fired Raven already. It's expressed its "defense" against the opposition in no uncertain terms - by joining it in its persecution of Raven and thereby hoping to come to no further harassment.

Providing them with some rationale that they could have used instead of doing this isn't going to solve anything. The concern is the injustice and crimes committed toward Raven by the guy in question and by the center itself, not anything about this center's fate or well-being. They are entirely off my radar screen for those purposes.

Best,
Ron

Ron,
I had registered that he had lost his job, but I misread Raven's log (I can no longer go into work, due to safety concerns, thus I have no more job.), wrongly believing his loss of work voluntary.

So yes, my suggestion won't help. And yes, crimes have been committed by this individual and the center, and it's frustrating to imagine them going unpunished.

BEGIN EDIT
It may have been unclear but what my wife was saying was (contrary to what I thought): "I understand that Raven was fired. I think the center owes Raven many things, including an apology. But what may help Raven in the short-term is if the center sent out a letter to parents. A good way to get the center to do this is if they believe it will help cover their own butts. But ultimately it would inform parents who were following this 'ringleader' that he had been violent toward Raven. The part that would be most useful is the center could simply state the facts; i.e. the events that transpired without implicating or slandering anyone by stating names."
END EDIT

Raven & Ron,
Dragon magazine recently put some effort into allowing convicts to receive their subscriptions in jail. You could petition Dragon for some sort of assistance (publicity or better yet, financial). Granted, Dragon had some financial interest with prison subscribers, but being assaulted and unlawfully fired may rally their support.

-Zak

A memo discussing the cons of blocking Web access to RPG sites leads to threats, violence, and loss of employment? Absurd. Bottom line - Ron's exactly right, the society I *think* we all live in does not allow such things to go unpunished.

I've already let Raven know privately that if he decides the general public can help him, I'll do what ever little bits I can, supportively, informationally or financially. And I told him that he shouldn't be shy about making that request.

Ron (and the rest of the Forge) - the same is true of a general "defence of RPG" fund/organization/whatever. I don't know enough to help in a big way, but I'll happily contribute some time and a few greenbacks to any such effort. I think this is a good, important idea no matter what ends up happening with Raven's specific situation, so I'm interested no matter what.

Gordon

I've been letting this simmer, and had to come back to it.

Ron Edwards wrote: Raven's former employer owes him money and a written, official apology. The fellow who assaulted him needs to go to jail and face charges. I think these points are rock-solid and rooted in the foundation of our society. I can't imagine any other outlook on this issue - or discussion of any other aspect of the issue - that deserves a moment of attention.

Hi M.J.,

That's fair, as a cautionary point. A lot will depend on how that state views the issue, as well as on how the employer justifies the termination. That's where the Minnesota lawyers know the game and we don't, so my view of specifically "what they should do" is pretty minor.

Best,
Ron

Holy crap, Raven.

I'll add my voice to M.J.'s, with all the disclaimers that come with being a non-practicing attorney. You might contact your state's Bar Association to drum up an attorney who might bring a case on your behalf. Also check to see if you have a Legal Aid office locally and see if you can get some representation. You absolutely have some strong points on your side, not to mention the potential harm to your family. I'd also contact the police and the District Attorney's office. It's important to show you've tried to notify the proper authorities. Underline that you have a small child who is at risk.

Is there enough of a supportive community there for you to rally public outrage to your side? Death threats and vandalism are newsworthy. If there's a local paper, you might contact them and see if they'll run a story, preferably one that lauds the center for its contribution to the community.

If you have any other questions, I can't give legal advice, but I may be able to offer some other suggestions for places to go and legal resources to contact. Feel free to e-mail me, and good luck.

Best,

Blake

Heya all, an update, as promised.

Alas, MJ is correct. I spoke with my attorney (from Legal Aid) yesterday and discovered that Minnesota is one of those states with "at will" employment, exactly as MJ describes, so I have no recourse against the Center itself for its decision to terminate the position for the reasons given.

If the firing could be show to be due religious discrimination, then I would have a definite case, but given the situation, that would require a court case first to determine if there was religious discrimination on the employer's part.

I'm not sure if I accept that, and I'm in contact with the local ACLU about the issue, so I'll see what they have to say about it and if they can provide any assistance or there are any laws or rulings on the books which cater to this sort of situation.

However, if I cannot obtain unemployment compensation from the State, then I can take the Center to court for such, due to my firing not being related to my ability or on-the-job behavior. Also, I can still sue the private individual for slander and damages, and plan on going through with that.

I have also been told secondhand that the individual who began all this is planning to write an apology and admission that his statements were false. I've requested that, in addition, the same apology letter be distributed to everyone to whom the statements were made.

Once and if that occurs, I can't say what the next step will be.

This is an edit to the post: My lawyer and I had another chat today, and apparently I mistook what he said yesterday, or he was unclear -- doesn't really matter -- but I can't go after the Center for my unemployment compensation.

Apparently, what he meant (and which I took to be two seperate notions), is that I can contact our state's Human Rights department and have them investigate. If anything comes out of that, THEN I can take the Center to court.

Thought I should point that out quick so as not to confuse anyone as to the state of the law. This has no bearing on the slander case, however, which I still can pursue.

Hi Raven,

It seems as if you've managed to stay upright during the whole thing, which is great. If suing the Center is not possible, then at least there's the secondary issue that you mentioned, of whether you get unemployment and so forth. We also talked about what your "record" says, in job terms; if the Center is unwilling to release a clean bill and a good recommendation, I imagine a court would wonder why not (pending of course what a real lawyer says).

It may not be appropriate to expect a public answer from you about the next issue I'll bring up, so let me ask it of everyone, as a thought-experiment. Say you were in Raven's situation, and the person who assaulted you, etc, apologized and even did the whole written thing to everyone he'd talked to. Would you continue to press charges, or would you drop them?

Again, I am not expecting Raven to answer this, and actually I'd prefer that no one did, here on the forum. But our personal answers about this, to ourselves and for ourselves, seem to me to be very significant.

Best,
Ron

While gathering links to pentially helpful people/organizations/sites, has anyone mentioned the Escapist yet?

http://www.theescapist.com

It's one of the best gaming advocacy websites I've seen.

Ron Edwards wrote: We also talked about what your "record" says, in job terms; if the Center is unwilling to release a clean bill and a good recommendation, I imagine a court would wonder why not (pending of course what a real lawyer says).

Say you were in Raven's situation, and the person who assaulted you, etc, apologized and even did the whole written thing to everyone he'd talked to. Would you continue to press charges, or would you drop them?

Ron Edwards wrote: Specifically: there is no existing role-playing equivalent to the Comic Book Legal Defense Fund, which is the institution that helps comics retailers from going out of business when targeted by anti-comics groups.

Bill! Hooray, it's good to see you here.

Thanks for joining in. One thing I'm really interested in looking up is precedent from the last three decades - what's the history in cases like this? What gets ruled, what doesn't get ruled, that sort of thing.

I've been honing my vision for what I'd like to organize. So far, this is what I've got:

1) Unlike the CBLDF, the "fund" would not be geared toward retailer stores, but toward individuals. I'm not sure whether there's any history at all of a gaming retailer being targeted independently of comics. If there is, then I'd reconsider this point immediately.

2) Access to the "fund" would rely on a very specific set of concerns - it wouldn't be available to someone who commits crimes and also happens to role-play; it would have to be for someone was subjected to illegal treatment due to their association with role-playing in some documented way.

3) Repairing the "image" of role-playing by issuing statements really wouldn't be the mission at all. If some chief-of-police somewhere makes an off-the-cuff comment that "that D&D stuff" might be involved in little Johnny killing little Suzy, then I don't see the point of spending money to dash around going "Oh golly, no." (Although a definite mission statement would be readily available as a document, on-line and otherwise.)

4) Rather than being for paying direct legal costs, it would focus more on fees for information-consulting, perhaps with some specific lawyers who are willing to participate, definitely on initial retainer fees (the "cost to hire" startup if you will), and also perhaps on grimmer things like bail.

Anyway, those are the thoughts. Any comments or suggestions?

Best,
Ron

Ron Edwards wrote: Bill! Hooray, it's good to see you here.

Ron Edwards wrote: One thing I'm really interested in looking up is precedent from the last three decades - what's the history in cases like this? What gets ruled, what doesn't get ruled, that sort of thing.

Ron Edwards wrote: 1) Unlike the CBLDF, the "fund" would not be geared toward retailer stores, but toward individuals. I'm not sure whether there's any history at all of a gaming retailer being targeted independently of comics. If there is, then I'd reconsider this point immediately.

Ron Edwards wrote: 2) Access to the "fund" would rely on a very specific set of concerns - it wouldn't be available to someone who commits crimes and also happens to role-play; it would have to be for someone was subjected to illegal treatment due to their association with role-playing in some documented way.

Ron Edwards wrote: 3) Repairing the "image" of role-playing by issuing statements really wouldn't be the mission at all.

Ron Edwards wrote: Anyway, those are the thoughts. Any comments or suggestions?

Hi there,

I think the "gaming experts" idea is a good one, although I'm dubious about who gets to be one. I'd lean more toward the legal-guy-who-knows rather than, "Eddie, local gamer-about-town." I'd definitely like to have a number of expert-witness type folks available for consults, though, at least after it's nailed down just what qualifies them as experts.

The trouble is conflict of interest. If we have (say) Peter Adkison as an expert witness regarding AD&D, it's indubitable that he knows the game inside and out and sideways ... but that very biz-status that renders him an expert also disallows him as a meaningful witness in the eyes of the "other side" - "Of course he's in favor of it," they'd say.

But then the other extreme is Eddie off the street, who might just as likely be a bona fide occultist as a standup citizen as any other bloody thing. Finding a meaningful definition of "expert" for purposes of having expert witnesses would seem like an important task.

Tell us more about Paul Cardwell - who is he, what does he do, etc.

Best,
Ron

I have known a number of people who worked as expert witnesses, in computer security, software QA, and other scientific disciplines. They were all independent consultants working in those fields, maybe with a career at a company first. So . . . rather than Peter Adkison, I think you're looking at someone like John Tynes or Robin Laws as your "best" match in the expert witness area.

Hope that's useful,

Gordon

As I believe I mentioned, Paul Cardwell is the chairman of CARPGa; he also happens to be a Methodist minister, which makes it difficult for the "other side" to easily discount him. I believe he's in Canada, so getting him to trials here would be difficult--but he's an amazing resource person, one of the few I know who are familiar with role playing games as they existed before D&D was first published.

As to defining "experts", we've probably got a few; it would depend on exactly what sort of tack the attorney wanted to take, but I think we could find some.

--Paul Cardwell, as mentioned.

--Dave Arneson, I believe, is not affiliated with any major company yet has a solid knowledge of the field; he is also an elder in a conservative Evangelical church, but I don't know his credentials in any detail.

--Tracy Hickman has published a number of articles addressing role playing game issues in religious publications, and could be recognized in the field.

--Lynette Cowper of SJGames (I believe) might qualify; she's also a tremendous resource person in regard to the gaming controversy, but I don't know the details of her credentials.

--Bill Walton would probably qualify, wouldn't you, Bill?

--Rodney Barnes, current president of the Christian Gamers Guild, ordained minister, and author of Claymore, which is given away free.

--Rick Loomis, President of GAMA and of Flying Buffalo Games.

--As for me, my degrees are in theology and law and I've written extensively about games and gaming (and am anticipating publication of an article in defense of gaming in two significant Christian magazines). I'd probably have to cut my hair, but I could do it.

The trick really is to find people who are published gaming advocates with good credentials. It can't be objected that they are gaming advocates if they are well credentialed; everyone knows that expert witnesses are selected because they support the position of the side that presents them. Expertise is established based on credentials. It permits the witness to testify about the nature of an area generally even if he doesn't know the specifics of this case--in legal jargon, it establishes his "opinions" about the subject as "relevant evidence" in the case. The jury then decides whether the evidence presented is convincing. That is, the attorney can't call a bunch of gamers to the stand to testify that they play games and have no tendency toward violence or satanism or anything like that, because they aren't presenting any evidence directly about the case--they arguably don't know anything about this situation. But Paul Cardwell could be called to the stand, established as an expert in the field, and then present that CARPGa's research has found a negative correlation between role playing on the one hand and violence on the other, and that is relevant evidence because he is established as someone whose knowledge of the field enables him to present facts, not opinions or anecdotes.

And face it, if Pat Pulling can qualify as an expert on the subject, probably half the regulars on any major RPG web site forum could.

--M. J. Young

MJ mentions Tracy Hickman...but I have to wonder at the use he, or someone of similar beliefs, would provide in a case, or at least a good selection of cases.

Let us take my situation, for example. I would definitely NOT want (to continue the example) Mr. Hickman testifying for me, as I'm reasonably certain he would end up causing more trouble than he would prevent.

I am getting a little ahead of myself, so let me explain:
Part of the problem with my situation is the fact that I play and defend RPGs, the other part of the problem is my status as a non-Christian minister.

Mr. Hickman's beliefs are such that he would be incompatible with half of the case. You see, in a dialogue between the two of us some years back concerning some statements about paganism and witchcraft contained in his essay on morality in RPGs, which I found wrong-headed and damaging to the pagan community, he outright stated that I (and anyone of similar religious persuasion) am simply damned to hell, following a dark, ultimately corrupting path and either tricked by Satan or outright worshipping him -- whether I believe myself to be or not.

He then repeated the same to a stunned (and devoutly Christian) friend who wrote to him after hearing about the response I'd recieved. My friend apparently believed Mr. Hickman was just misinformed and might be more open hearing defense coming from a good Christian. Disappointingly, he was not.

Now, I'm not bashing Mr. Hickman or his beliefs -- they are his beliefs, and as long as he's not burning crosses on someone's front lawn, pubically defaming or causing problems for anyone or any group, I have no problem with what he chooses to believe. He was also very polite in his statements, which doesn't change things much (anyone can politely insult someone).

But, the issue at hand: would I want someone of Mr. Hickman's beliefs supporting me in a case like this? By all the many Gods, NO!

Gamers are a cross-section of the population, and likely as many as are Christian are Pagan, so the chances of an expert having to testify on behalf of someone of a non-Christian faith is higher than usual, and if it comes up, it becomes a problem area for the defense.

Unfortunately, being a Pagan is often a liability in our modern culture and thus moreso in court; having someone who does not respect your beliefs on "your side" in court is as much a liability. That's my concern.

I thus suggest the list of "experts" be rounded out with those of more neutral or less extreme beliefs, or that faith itself be downplayed as an issue, though I can unfortunately see the use of having those of (what is generally perceived to be) fundamentalist Christian faith defending the game against accusations of Satanism or occultism, as it gives more emotional weight to their objections.

On the other hand, we should also have experts whose religious beliefs are not a part of the issue, only the facts they can provide, such as any of the individuals who have studied the effects of RPGs as a whole (Bill, I think, can provide a good list of what studies have been done and by whom...correct?).

I would be particularly interested in adding the researchers for the actual studies done by the Institute for Gifted Children [sic] on that list, as well as those involved at Canada's CDC [sic, again] and the American Department of Suicidology, the FBI, etc. If the individuals involved can be contacted and would be willing. Solid secular experts would only be of benefit in the courtroom.

The whole idea that "Christians play, so it's a GOOD game" because "Christian = Good" sets up a subtle dichotomy I don't personally like, though I know the power it already holds in our society's psyche.
Certainly, an intelligent prosecutor could rip such a case apart by turning the issue wholly to the defendant's religion, if non-Christian, and painting the poor recipient of such as a horrid devil-worshipper who just happens to play RPGs as well, thus foregoing that angle.

Two items:

I've an update about the situation at my website. Bascially, I've recieved an apology letter and the individual is attempting to repair the damage he did, but I (as yet) do not have my job back. I'm going in on Monday to talk with my former boss and ask if they plan on doing right by me and my family, considering the situation with the individual and those he riled up has reversed itself.

Legally, I've already discovered that I can't sue my ex-employer for releasing me; whether I can or wish to make a human rights issue out of this or not remains to be seen.

Second, in case you missed it, a branch of our lovely media, in typical sensationalist fashion, has now linked D&D to the sniper shootings out on the eastern seaboard. Here is the link to the article about it: Save vs Channel 9 For Half

I point this out as the nature of this thread is to stir up movement towards the establishment of an RPG defense league. According to the author and his Court TV viewing habits, the media situation is worse than I had understood, so I take this as a kick-in-the-butt to get things moving on that front.

Hi Raven,

Consider the butt kicked. Some Forge members have been astoundingly helpful, and the whole thing is further along than I'd thought to be.

I'm interested in a couple of other aspects of your situation, but some of them are off-forum stuff, so I'll be in touch.

Best,
Ron