Hi I'm new around here but have been gaming for many years. Along with everyone else I have also designed my own game, I have even gone so far as to try and pitch it to already established game companies only to be told the majority of the time that they are a closed design house and do not except submissions. Armed with information I went on to look for companies that billed themselves as open design houses only to be told they were not excepting submissions at this time as well as for awhile into the future. Needless to say I was alittle disappointed.

So then I went a got alittle daring and went further to see what it takes to be a publisher. It's daunting but does not appear to be impossible. So far it seems to me that it is the smaller Indie Games that are in the greatest need of a publisher that would have the ability to get them on to the shelves. Now I'm not talking about being a publisher that just buys up Indie Games to sell for themselves but a publisher that is in the biz strictly to help independent games get into the market by using their status as a label. Think of it as a "brought to you by" type company that sponsors smaller independent designers by giving them the edge of being under a larger publishing label to help get their games on shelves. Add to this of also being a true "Open design house" in which designers can bring their ideas to get help on things like layout, printing options and the like. Or maybe they have a setting idea they would like seen with a certain but interested in creating specific rules. Or a place that artist can find work to illustrations for books and have direct access for imput from the creator. A company like this could offer everything from pdf online sales to bound in the store. I'm curious if anyone else has had similar ideas like this and if so would be interested in trying to see it come to life. Imagine if there was a company out there that could get your game seen from everywhere from the interenet to your local Barnes and Noble or game store. Real curious about feedback on this one.

Sylus

As a gamer and not part of the industry, I think this is a fantastic idea. A wide selection of different and original games. Brilliant.

However I have recently been finding that the world of RPG publishing is a difficult one. RPG.NET has a wealth of information and industry experience and, franky, the odd of an open RPG company surviving without big financial backing seems low.

A shame really, because you proposition is fabulous.

Actually it could be quite easy. Although the publisher would focus on Indie Games it would be able to supplement it's own income. For example. In the Indie market small print runs are usually relatively small compared to more established ones. In this case digital printing is a must as to its ease of use as well as it's low cost. If this style of printing is used it can create it's own supplemental income as the need for print on demand printing is very high. In talking with the head of the local universities printing department I was told that were he able to compete with local buisinesses he could easily put a few out of buisiness do to his output capabilities as well as use it to supplement his income to be able to devote more time and energy to more publishing styled work. Even with the lease on brand new equipment the digital printer can easily pay for its own supplies and the monthly lease agreement in simple kinko's like buisiness and still be able to afford to do the actually publishing of games without fear of going under as long as their are in a large enough town to support a copying buisiness. Plus with it being digital you can easily take orders from all over the country or the world as long as they use a common program format. The possibilties with this one are endless. I would love to see this one get off the ground. If anyone else has any ideas I would love to hear them.

Sylus

Hmmm. I'm not sure how different this is from what we actually do here. Consider Ron. He created Sorcerer, got it printed, and then got it on the shelves through Tundra. The point is that the printing is easy, and the distribution is being handled by a company sorta like you describe, at least one that does distribution. As far as PDF sales, I can make you a web site in an hour and you can be selling the PDF.

OTOH, even Tundra has to decide what to carry. No business is going to just carry every game sent to it. It would be imposible business-wise. Nobody has the time to cater to the thousands (yes, I said thousands) or RPGs that would come tumbling in. To do it as print-on-demand would require that you charge an obnoxious price for each game (I'd guess double what it normally would cost).

Why not just do it yourself like we do here?

Mike

Oh I thoroughly plan on doing it myself. The point behind this though would be having a company for designers to go to that have the means on their own. Not everyone has what it takes to go through and find everything they need or always know where to start. And no it wouldn'y be able to take on the literal thousands of people with ideas, but hopefully at least help bring to life the ones people are serious about or reall have what it takes to seriously compete.

Sylus

Hello Sylus,

And welcome to the Forge! The issue you've brought up was last discussed in the Best of the Forge? thread, and it definitely remains open for suggestions.

However, it all comes down to the specifics. The comics industry has shed much blood over these issues and I recommend reviewing as much as you can about that.

What I'm not quite seeing is the exact service you're providing.
- Is it a publisher (i.e. provides costs for printing and promotion)?
- Or an agent (represents and promotes the game to distribution and retail for a cost)?
- Or a warehouser (stores the game and handles invoicing)?
- Or a combination of the above?
- Would it have any ownership rights over the game (in part, like a publisher, or in full, like a distributor)?

Please don't answer quickly or with a phrase like "well, whatever," or "All of the above!" These are really crucial questions. If you were to compare the Sphinx Group (agent), Tundra Sales (warehouser + agent), Wizards Attic (warehouser + distributor, kind of), and Atlas Games (licensed publisher which leaves the rights with the creator), where would your profile fall?

Best,
Ron

Actually these are all very good questions and ones I asked myself multiple times. When I began thinking about this I started by asking myself what I wanted a company to be able to do for me when I went to them.
!. I would prefer someone who had the publishing capabilities as I was only one person with limited funds. Just like any other normal guy.

2. Yes I would need an agent. I would need someone with a face in the industry that came across as more of an entity than just one guy working on his own.

3. I would want someone who could handle distribution. Yeah I could put a thousand copies of it in my shed but that wouldn't be very professional now would it. :)

4. Yes I would love to retain the rights to it or at least be the main person, if they bought it, that they consulted as to it's development.

Now I looked at my list of things, which is very similar to yours and probably everyone elses and tried to find someone who could do that. I couldn't find. I regularly got answers of we're a closed design house, or if they were open, sorry we're not taking submissions at this time. All in all it was a very frustrating time so I decided I would do it on my own but got to thinking about other designers going through the same problem. What would they do or where would they go? So I starting researching how to become my very own full fledged help them with the works publisher. So here is what I would do.

1. I would offer full printing services. If they needed no other help than this it would offer quality digital printing and methods of binding for a reasonable fee. All printing would simply require all the materials presented to us on disk in which we could then feed to the machine and let it go to work.

2. If they had everything in a rough form form and only desired printing but weren't sure how to get their game in a workable format, we would help with layout.

3. We would also do distribution and promotion if they so desired.

4. All services would be provided for at the most reasonable fee possible. Should they wish to retain their rights to the design, we would provide all services and then all profits would be passed on to the designer after costs of publication are paid for, minus a small percentage for our services.

5. If a design were to come in that was purely supplemental for something we put out, we would put both designers in touch with other to decide how well they would work together and then proceed from there on the go ahead from the original designer.

6. We would be willing to sign NDA's on all submissions before reviewing, as well as insisting on it for everyones sake that was involved.

Granted these are all rough things that would be involved in what I'd like to see it do but as you can see, yes it would be an all of the above type of company. Somewhere a designer can take a game and just sell it off outright or have help seeing it developed and come to life with a company name to help back it up. I may be an idealist but I believe it can be done and would genuinely help the Indie society as a whole.

Sylus

Hi Sylus,

Thanks! I'm glad to see you've considered these things already; as you might imagine, I was kind of dreading dealing with someone who was full of enthusiasm but was short on concept. But, as is, good.

What you're proposing is very much like what Atlas Games, Hobgoblynn Press, and (I think) Hogshead Publishing do. All of these companies pay for print costs and handle much if not all of the warehousing, promotion, and distribution-hassles for the games, whereas the creators "retain the rights." The profits are handled variously; sometimes it's a split percentage

The companies I've mentioned, though, tend to keep their focus on already-established game designers with substantial, indeed stellar reputations: John Tynes, Greg Stolze, Robin Laws, etc. These people can be counted on to generate within-industry interest and great game designs/text, and they can be relied upon especially to do the job and not wander off somewhere unexpectedly.

(I did say "tend," not "restrict" - De Profundis is a good example of an exception.)

Aldo Ghiozzi regularly recruits smaller-press, lesser-known game designers to be published just as you describe, using his company Wingnut Games. I suggest checking out his site and perhaps contacting him about how he does it, for comparison. Aldo knows a lot about the gaming biz and can provide a great deal of perspective.

Best,
Ron

Ron thanks for the info, I'll definitly be trying to check them out. Hopefully by throwing the idea out there it will let people know that it is possible. Who knows maybe it''ll generate some enthusiasm for the idea among the designers who already know how hard it is to go through it on your own.

Sylus

Hi Sylus,

Well, that was kind of Phase One of the necessary dialogue that your post brings up. Phase Two is a little rougher, a little more dangerous. Let me know if I tread on your toes, and please don't perceive the following as an attack.

FIRST, A DEFINITION
The Forge is about "indie" games, locally defined as Self-published and Creator-owned. This is a very difficult concept for many people. By the Forge definition, Unknown Armies is creator-owned (Tynes and Stolze share the intellectual property rights) but not self-published (John Nephew put up the money for the print run, promo, etc). This quite radical definition on my and Clinton's parts has led to a lot of puzzled debate, but much of that is based on misunderstandings. I'll try to clear some of them up, and then I'll (finally) get around to explaining why this is relevant to you.

CLARIFICATIONS
1) Nothing is fundamentally wrong with the Atlas Games model, or until recently, Synister Creative Systems. This model is paralleled in comics by the companies Image and Sirius Comics. The rationale is just as you describe: to remove the travails of publishing and promotion from the creator's shoulders.

2) However, it's not the model for games whose design is discussed at the Forge. Actual Play, RPG Theory, etc, can be about any game, but Indie Design and Publishing are reserved for a very strict economic set of games, as described in the definition above. The Forge parallels in comics would be Cerebus, Thieves & Kings, and Strangers in Paradise. The very concept of separating "publisher" from "creator" removes a game from "Forge type game." Granted, there are grey areas, but they're not as grey as many people think.

The rationale for preferring this mode of publishing instead of #1 is simple: retaining full creative control and full economic control of the material. No matter how great a guy John Nephew is (and he is), he cannot make publishing and promotion decisions specifically and only for the benefit of Greg Stolze and John Tynes relative to Unknown Armies. He has other print costs, other promotions, and other concerns to factor into his decisions about UA - case closed.

You mentioned "only the best games," at one point - and I suggest that this assessment is going to be much more difficult than one might think. Ultimately, your company is going to reflect what you think is the "best" game, whether in terms of play or economic-potential or both. In no way, shape, or form can you be said to represent the creators of the games in this regard.

3) Again: I am not talking about right or wrong, better or worse. I'm talking about choices a game designer has to make, and about the simple statement that the Forge is reserved, in terms of publishing/promotion (e.g. reviews) and in terms of what can be discussed in the Design forum, for games on one side of that choice.

RELEVANCE
Now for why this is relevant to you, and I ask you to consider this as necessary perspective, not a personal rejection.

If you were to set up as such a company, you'd be a "resource" at the Forge - a place we could send people to ask questions, provide industry insight, and otherwise help - but we will not promote games you publish, help people design them, or otherwise put the "guts" of the Forge to work for them. Discuss their play, yes; recognize them with respect, yes; include them regarding all the theory babble, yes ... but that's it. They would not fit the economic definition of the games the Forge is set up to promote.

That's why when UnderWorld was published by Synister Creative System, there was no forum for it at the Forge; when its rights reverted to Gareth Michael-Skarka as primary author when he moved away from SCS, it got a forum.

I would not turn people away from using your company, no more than I turn them away from SCS or Atlas or Hogshead. That option is a valid one, and I include it in my discussions of "how to publish." If and when your endeavor is successful, I'll be up-front about that too. Furthermore, any and all insights and advice you can provide to people regarding game publishing would be welcome on the forums. But as soon as a game designer began working with you, those aspects of the Forge that I mentioned become closed to him. It's not a matter of punishment or disapproval, but a matter of focus and mission for the site.

Best,
Ron

Actually Ron I totally agree with your definitions of Indie games and the like. I think part of it may actually a lack of communication on my part. My goal for this company would not be to buy up small games and then publish them but to provide a resource for Indie designers that may otherwise have nowhere to turn. I guess you could think of it more as like the farmers co-op of Indie designers. Everytime a designer wants to go to print they all have to find the same things. Be it a printer of some kind, a means of distribution, advertising and all those other little nitpicky things that can get in a persons way. The purpose of the co-op would be to help the indie designers get around these obstacles by helping put them in touch with the best people to fit their needs plus just some general moral support. If it were to provide the printing along with other services it would be doing just that, providing. If they wished to proceed beyond the Indie designed model that would be totally at their discretion. Otherwise it would be considered an all in one resource for Indie designers put together buy other designers that know what they are going through as well as providing a think tank for help when they need it the most. I hope this clarifies my stance on it a little. I would add more but I have to run my oldest to school. I to seriously appreciate the comments and the discusiion and no there will probably never be any offense taken.

Sylus

Hi Sylus,

If I'm reading this right, what you're proposing sounds similar to the services offered by Golden Pillar Publishing* although it sounds like your service would be more of a collaborative effort than a vanity one. Still, have you checked out their site?

As to an agent, distribution liason, etc. I believe Gareth-Michael Skarka was offering his expertise in those areas (and others) at one time so you might want to contact him.

In any case, I like the idea. It's a _huge_, but noble undertaking.

Good luck with it.

Pete

*I don't work for GPP, I only plug them in about every other post I make. :)

H'm!!

OK, Sylus, I see it better now. Let's follow the money, to be sure I get it, and maybe clarify the language a little for myself.

So the creator pays you as a printer! That's interesting. Yes, they would be "self-published" then, and yes, this is a lot like the Golden Pillar model although not identical.

Technically, the right language would be that they are your clients, and no one is employing anyone.

Also, I imagine you'd be functioning as an agent ... but you mentioned "distribution," though, which is very tricky. This is not a casual term in the publishing world; Woody warehouses my books and fulfils my orders, but he does not "distribute" for me in the technical sense (in which case he would own the books), not in the way that Centurion or Alliance does. Which of these would be "you"? And how would you be paid in the agent capacity?

In my What the industry needs (by me!) thread, I suggested that a variety of intermediary, small-press-friendly companies along the lines of Tundra, Sphinx, and Wizards Attic were the best thing that could develop next. Sounds like you're right in that mode.

Best,
Ron

P.S. edited to fix link formatting

It sounds like we're now getting on the same page. Yes "Client" would be the more appropriate term for what I would like to do. I also do understand that distributing is tricky but if there were someone who could act as a distributer it could help many designers a great deal to get their games seen as far and wide as possible. This is what I meant by my phrase of "brought to you by". It would be a company that provides the services needed by independent designers, but the key would be that it is done by other independents in a co-operative effort. I know this is huge, but the signs of other co-op efforts such as the forge show that it can be and should be done. As far as the distribution goes, no we would not be of the style that we own the books but help store and ship to the proper areas and help fulfill orders. This is a much simpler task if all of it is done from the same location, Plus it helps cut out a middle man to be able to help pass along savings to the customer and increase the profit of the designer. Overall the goal would be to help the designer it whatever way possible. I'm actually enjoying this conversation quite a bit, their aren't many people locally for me to bounce ideas off of. pretty soon I'll be tossing out my game ideas for popular consumption.

Sylus
And yes I will be definitly checking out those resources you mentioned, they sound like they will be a great help.

You know it almost sounds like I'm trying to unionize Indie designers to help beat back the opression from the man. ;)

Sylus

Hey Joe Hill,

In that case, I suggest avoiding the word "distribution" entirely, because it literally includes the concept of transferred-ownership in this business, and using "warehousing" (storing books), "representing" (promoting games and products before and after release), and "fulfilment" (collecting orders, sending books, invoicing) instead. One of the experts in this realm is Woody Eblom, the man behind Tundra Sales Organization. He's another great guy who can provide immense amounts of information, and I think we'd all benefit from more than one business, even a few, built on similar models. Another crucial person to talk to is Eric Rowe of Wizards Attic; if you haven't checked out that website from top to toe, you should do that soon.

Best,
Ron

Hi Sylus,

Here's something else to consider: payment.

How will you be paid? Tundra Sales, for instance, acting as warehouser, fulfiller, and agent, takes a commission on each sale and that's it. When I worked with the Sphinx Group (agent only), Liz took a flat fee each month. If you're going to be acting as printer, then that's presumably going to be a sliding fee based on non-predictable costs, just like "real" printers do it.

Do you intend a "schedule" of fees, to be combined for a client based on the services he or she wants? What are your thoughts on this issue?

Best,
Ron

The other thing to consider is your business' reputation.

If you're going to print anyone and everyone who can contract you for the price you're quoting them, you won't be able to discriminate in terms of quality/type/format/etc of product.

Now, I believe that part of the definition of an indie game should (if it's not already) be that the creator is the only one making decisions about those things. Thus, should you decide to discriminate on that basis, you would remove the game's indie status.

But, if you won't pick the games you'll print, then how will the 'brought to you by' mark benefit the game? You say that games will be able to benefit from the company's reputation for putting out quality product, but if there's no 'quality control' aspect, that reputation is null and void.

I'm not trying to dismiss your ideas, or tell you that you're wrong here. You needn't pick one approach or the other. But you will need a way to distinguish between 'brought to you by' and 'printed by'. One will be approved by your company, the other won't.

I don't mean to derail this thread, but I just want to clarify a little information about Atlas Games from what I understand as a former employee. The only instance (to my knowledge) of Atlas being the type publisher that Mr. Edwards refers to them being is the special case of Unknown Armies. John Tynes and Greg Stolze own any/all rights to Unknown Armies, and Atlas Games licenses out the right to print the RPG books. There aren't any other games / books like this in the Atlas catalog. It's also important to note that, unless I'm mistaken, the freelancers that work on the UA books are doing it work-for-hire just like most Atlas titles (and the vast majority of RPG books in the industry).

The creator rights that John and Greg have for Unknown Armies are important, and probably the only way I'd have a company publish a game of mine. But using Atlas Games as an example of what I would call a 'record label'-type games publisher isn't really accurate.

(As an aside, I agree with most everything Ron Edwards has said here - just thought I'd take the opportunity to clarify some information about Atlas.)

Anyway, carry on...

Ron Edwards:
"What you're proposing is very much like what Atlas Games, Hobgoblynn Press, and (I think) Hogshead Publishing do. All of these companies pay for print costs and handle much if not all of the warehousing, promotion, and distribution-hassles for the games, whereas the creators "retain the rights." The profits are handled variously; sometimes it's a split percentage..."

Hi Alex,

Got it - and thanks. I was indeed thinking about UA as the prime example, probably because it's been kind of the poster-child in some of my recent discussions with Industry Luminaries who favor this mode of publication.

Hobgoblynn Press might be a better example, in the long run.

Best,
Ron