Ok, for you who don't know anything about Ygg magic here's the short rundown of the situation:

Ygg is fantasy. Human mages uses demonic magic which taints their soul essence. That in turn has as an effect that they start assuming demonic form externally as well. When the transformation is complete they are basically completely transformed into demons, but they lose all their magical powers in the process. To hold of the corruption, the mage can brand themselves with sealing tattoos, bond magical iron fetters to their body and/or sacrifice body parts.

Thus far it sounds pretty doom and gloom, but that's not really what it is. What really is the point that the transformations and voluntary self-mutilations adds a certain colour to the magicians. We're not talking about mumbling old men in long robes in my game. We are talking about demonic sorcerers. In addition it serves as a game balancer, because using a lot of magic gives a lot of taint.

To sum it up, Ygg demonic magic (the one humans usually use) give taint which in turn gives demonic corruption serving two purposes:

* Colour to the characters since they look pretty weird but probably cool
* Limiting how much you want to throw magic around you (this is important because Ygg magic is pretty easy to use and there are few actual limitations to it)

But to cut to the chase:

My original scheme was having you roll up corruption as they happened. Initially you would not know what kind of demon you would end up looking like, but after the first few transformations it would be clear. After that the transformations follows a pretty set path.

For example you might be turning into a demon of the Malakai style. In that case you'd be looking into having:

Witch marks
Extra fingers/toes
White hair
Red eyes
Allergy to sunlight
Claws
Rotting bodyscent (50% chance)
Attracts bats (50% chance)
Forked tongue
Demon wings

The problem is that some of these might be really cool for your particular character, and some just destroy the concept totally.

On the other hand, letting players choose might unbalance things as some demon changes might actually be more useful than others. I'm also afraid that choosing might encourage people to go crazy with the magic because they know the changes are something they think will look cool anyway.

Do you see the problem? On one hand we have "let them decide gives more colour" on the other "let them decide doesn't disuade them from using excessive amounts of magic".

And the latter would really be a problem. It should be like using spells in Call of Cthulhu with the players thinking: "Do I really really want to do this?"

I can post the list of demon types I thought up so far if that is helpful.

First off let me apologize if I am covering ground that has already been discussed in other threads.

That said...

Pale Fire wrote: Ok, for you who don't know anything about Ygg magic here's the short rundown of the situation:

Ygg is fantasy. Human mages uses demonic magic which taints their soul essence. That in turn has as an effect that they start assuming demonic form externally as well. When the transformation is complete they are basically completely transformed into demons, but they lose all their magical powers in the process. To hold of the corruption, the mage can brand themselves with sealing tattoos, bond magical iron fetters to their body and/or sacrifice body parts.

Pale Fire wrote: Thus far it sounds pretty doom and gloom, but that's not really what it is. What really is the point that the transformations and voluntary self-mutilations adds a certain colour to the magicians. We're not talking about mumbling old men in long robes in my game. We are talking about demonic sorcerers. In addition it serves as a game balancer, because using a lot of magic gives a lot of taint.

Pale Fire wrote: To sum it up, Ygg demonic magic (the one humans usually use) give taint which in turn gives demonic corruption serving two purposes:

* Colour to the characters since they look pretty weird but probably cool
* Limiting how much you want to throw magic around you (this is important because Ygg magic is pretty easy to use and there are few actual limitations to it)

Pale Fire wrote: My original scheme was having you roll up corruption as they happened. Initially you would not know what kind of demon you would end up looking like, but after the first few transformations it would be clear. After that the transformations follows a pretty set path.

Chris wrote: What's the point of entering into a Pact with a demon to gain power if all that you need to do to gain a Demon's power (viz: become a demon) is find a Demon who is sucker enough to let you use their power?

Pale Fire wrote: How is this different from "blood" magic? Or Necromancy?

Chris wrote:

Pale Fire wrote: Limiting how much you want to throw magic around you (this is important because Ygg magic is pretty easy to use and there are few actual limitations to it)

Some fatigue systems I have seen do pretty much the same thing.

I think i'm missing the point of the demonic transformation thing a bit.

Pale Fire wrote: Thus far it sounds pretty doom and gloom, but that's not really what it is. What really is the point that the transformations and voluntary self-mutilations adds a certain colour to the magicians.

Pale Fire wrote: There is nothing inherently evil with being a sorcerer. The problem is that using it you start to look as if you were. Individual spells and summonings might be "evil", but most spells and abilities are quite neutral - they can be used for both good and evil.

Sorry to disappoint you Simon, not much I can do about that though. The game is the ways it I think it should be I can't do it differently.

Now, a very common misconception is the Ygg demonic magic is the focus of the game. There are several types of magic and the demonic kind is simply one of them.

There do is a mythological background to why humans can use demonic magic, and that's because the (younger) gods used the human soul as a place to hide one of the 5 keys they used to seal this world from the demons.

The demons are extra-dimensional beings with varying powers, from insignificant to godlike. Anyway, they are bad business and so is the power they are built of.

As a consequence, using this type of magic corrupts the user - it is an easy and seductive power though.

So why do I say it is colour? Despite the subtle tragic motif of the Sorcerer - at least the heroic one usually played by the players - there is nothing I have put in there to seriously harm the gaming pleasure. You can play the sorcerer as efficient as an AD&D wizard if you like, the difference is that you won't be stopped from using magic by the rules, instead it is restricted by the finite amount of demonic energy you can use before your soul is consumed by taint. The visible signs of demonic corruption are supposed to work like warning signs, telling the player when he/she is letting the character race too quickly towards the inevitable end.

So what is demonic energy? It is a type of magical energy (there are different ones, they are all characterized by their semi-sentience and ability to affect other matter), which also befouls the user with demonic essence. Although there are no listed psychological effects, such may occur if the player wishes.

Am I answering your question Simon? It is "only colour" to me because it does not lie in the depth of the premise to me. The effects are merely outcomes of what demonic energy is. I choose this type of magic as the most influencial, because it a) makes sense for this type of magic to be easy yet have very little real inpact on the world and b) there is so many visible effects that could naturally occur with this type of magic. And visual stuff is important to me. I hate the trimmed down spells which are little more than an effect. For me, how a spell looks is as or more important than what it does.

Palefire

You seem to be lurking arounbd Forge a bit more than the old Art of Gasme Design haunts.

As magic systems using taints are quite close to my heart right now I'll see if I can tackle your question. I passed over the same question myself a year or so ago in Wayfarer's Song - although I had an easier job because magic in WS is flavoured with intent and taints are based on the sort of magic you are channelling.

Thus is a sorcerer chanels healing magic he suffer's bittersweet healing taints. Destructive magic causes destructive taints. Magic assocaited with wolves will make a character wolfish in mind and body.

In Wayfarer' Song taints are rolled randomly to start with. The GM is encouraged to invent taints as the game progresses. Either way taints are specifc to the type of magic being cast. This is key because although the specific taint is random the basic theme of the taint will not usually go against the grain of a character concept.

I also think you should consider implementing a 'soulburn' mechanic so that a player can choose to stop casting magic before they are tainted. Careful sorcerers who use magic with strict moderation should be tainted less than sorcerers who weild power with glee abandon.

Now as for your system - let me follow the lines of one querry above? What makes angels different from demons? Every religion or mythology that has 'demons' has some kind of counter balancing good spirit. We have angels in Judeo-Christian belief and Islam. There are Asari (Spelt right?) in Hindu myth. Other enlightened beings inhabit Budhist and Shinto teachings.

Remeber however that a lot of religions (arguable) have no 'demons' at all. Norse, Egyptian, Greek, Maori, Aztec, most ethnic African religions blur the line between divine and demonic.

Hel is the daughter of a god. Hades is a god. So too is Set and Anubis. In Maori myth the 'god' of oceans Tangaroa acts more like a demon to fishermen who want to eat his children without permission. The 'god' Tane-Mahuta comes down quite harsh on anyone who murders his chrildren: trees or and birds.

One question I must ask is do demons even make sense in the cosmology of your world. Demons (christian) and trolls (norse) are out of place in the same world.

Back to the topic at hand...

Anyway assuming you have demons in some sort of Judeo-Christian sense you could (should?) have angels too. You could have whole hierachies of angels, archons, divas and demons. Perhaps depending on the sort of magic a sorcerer practices the type of spirutal entity he becomes will vary?

Perhaps magic could just be a conspiracy: a means for the two dynasties of heavan and hell to swell their numbers for the final battle at the end of days?

You also mentioned that demons in Ygg are perhaps some sort of extra-planar entity rather than a spirit linked to creation. So if you are set with the demon-as-alien-spirit thing you *could* write up a whole bunch of tables that have different taints of the same general theme. Then, allow a GM to choose a table that makes sense in the context of the magic a sorcerer uses and won't destroy a character concept but still creates some uncertainty (and negative effects).

Also, perhaps make taints more subtle so that they are less likely to destroy a character concept.

Overall I think that some randomness is important in encouraging the sorcerer's player to ask: Do I really want to do this?

Tables allows you include one or two 'nice' taints', several neutral taints, and a bunch that are really problematic for a character.

Another thing is that simply explaining very carefully what will happen to a character who uses demonic sorcery BEFORE chargen you may encourage those players who have a strong and immutable character concept in mind to opt away from demonic magic altogether. The system as you are describing it appears more likely to appeal to players who enjoy a little chaos in their game.

I hope some of that is helpful. You may want to read over Wayfarer's Song to see how I've handled some of these problems. I can post a link if you don't have it already from my posts over on the Art of Game Design.

Chris

I don't know where the "angel" angle came fromI thought I already described what the demons are. Consider it a simple title so that the reader knows approximately what to expect from them. If I call them the Hlghtrruth, it's not as obvious. There's nothing judeo-christian about my world. There are no angels. Besides, the world demon comes from the Greek "daemon" (as I suppose most people here already know), so if the christians felt they could use that name for their evil spirits, why can't I use it for the evil godlike beings that was banished from the earth by the (younger gods). The name demon is also used to as a mere descriptive epitet. For example I've seen Fenrir called "the demon wolf Fenrir".

Your posting was very interesting Peregrine, I'll get back to it soon. This was just a very quick posting to clarify the setting a little.

One good reason not to use the word demon is to avoid confusion.

If your demons are unique and significantly different from the usual image/concept of a demon that will come to a reader's mind when he/she reads the word then perhaps 'Hlghtrruth' *is* a better word becuase it is neutral - although I know you choose it in jest. It reminded me that Cthulu and Balrog are silly names outside the context of their settings. Invented names can make the 'demon' stand out from the rest of the usual evil spirits, and they can make a reader think 'hey I better pay attention this is something different.'

Some more questions:
If the 'younger gods' ejected the demons from the world could demons be called elder gods? Can 'younger' god magic be chanelled by human souls. If not, why not? Do people still worship demons? Did they ever worship demons? Also, how can evil energy from evil creatures ever do anything good like healing?

Incidently, I kind of assumed there must be a Judeo-Christian spin becuase of your list of taints: wings, aversion to sunlight, forked tongue, red eyes, stinking smell. Most of your taints sound very much like Medieval Christian demonic imagery. Might want to change that.

Looking over your posts you seem to get this kind of problem a lot - getting side tracked on setting issues when all you really want to know is whether randomly rolled or choosen taints would be preferable.

Just had an idea so here's a third option. Provide a list of taints - but - make it the GM's duty to choose the taint that a character gets. This way the GM can decide if a taint will disturb character concept too much. Or choose two or three taints randomly and allow the character to choose from *these* which one he 'wants'.

Chris

Peregrine wrote: One good reason not to use the word demon is to avoid confusion.

If the 'younger gods' ejected the demons from the world could demons be called elder gods?

Can 'younger' god magic be chanelled by human souls. If not, why not?

Do people still worship demons? Did they ever worship demons?

Also, how can evil energy from evil creatures ever do anything good like healing?

Incidently, I kind of assumed there must be a Judeo-Christian spin becuase of your list of taints: wings, aversion to sunlight, forked tongue, red eyes, stinking smell.

Looking over your posts you seem to get this kind of problem a lot - getting side tracked on setting issues when all you really want to know is whether randomly rolled or choosen taints would be preferable.

Just had an idea so here's a third option. Provide a list of taints - but - make it the GM's duty to choose the taint that a character gets.

Pale Fire Said:

There is no pact.

Sorcerers simply tap energy from demonic dimensions. The conduit is their soul and the process taints it. As the soul starts to develop a demonic side, the physical body is twisted in accordance.

Demonic energy naturally flows into the world because it has less of magical energy within it. The souls of humans work as gates that can be opened and let the energy in. However, once a soul is completely infused with demonic energy, there is no "drop" in potential so no magic flows through the soulgate anymore.

This makes the sorcerer essentially powerless and stuck in a demonic shape. Since the demonic shape in itself usually doesn't have any special powers, that's often a Bad Thing (tm).

Pale Fire wrote: There do is a mythological background to why humans can use demonic magic, and that's because the (younger) gods used the human soul as a place to hide one of the 5 keys they used to seal this world from the demons.

Peregrine wrote: Anyway assuming you have demons in some sort of Judeo-Christian sense you could (should?) have angels too. You could have whole hierachies of angels, archons, divas and demons. Perhaps depending on the sort of magic a sorcerer practices the type of spirutal entity he becomes will vary?

Pale Fire wrote: I don't know where the "angel" angle came fromI thought I already described what the demons are. Consider it a simple title so that the reader knows approximately what to expect from them. If I call them the Hlghtrruth, it's not as obvious. There's nothing judeo-christian about my world. There are no angels. Besides, the world demon comes from the Greek "daemon" (as I suppose most people here already know), so if the christians felt they could use that name for their evil spirits, why can't I use it for the evil godlike beings that was banished from the earth by ...

Hi Kester. A lot of postings in a row there. Probably the best is simply make a single posting and quote the portions you're replying to if you want to avoid potential confusion (unless, of course, you're trying to up your number of postings ;) )

The reson I didn't give you everything in the posting was that if I had it would be a hell of a long posting. Besides I think there are some stuff already posted here or on rpg.net.

As for the name, if you're thinking about judeo christian demon images then that's good. There are so many varied interpretations that this material is extremely evocative. What I mean with no judeochristian lore is that you don't have hierarchies of angels, demons and so on. There are different "hells" in a way... there are many different demonic dimensions, all which are very different. But few people in the game world itself know the difference - including the sorcerers and sorceresses themselves, so I found it useless to actually have something to describe what particular demonic dimension your magic is tied to.

In my opinion I think you could simplify by relying on your premise. After all if it is the "soul" that is being tapped, why not just call it such? "Soul Energy" or "Spirit" maybe?

Demoniac Divas

Pale Fire wrote: Hi Kester. A lot of postings in a row there. Probably the best is simply make a single posting and quote the portions you're replying to if you want to avoid potential confusion (unless, of course, you're trying to up your number of postings ;) )

Pale Fire wrote: The reson I didn't give you everything in the posting was that if I had it would be a hell of a long posting. Besides I think there are some stuff already posted here or on rpg.net.

Pale Fire wrote: ...maybe I wasn't clear. What the sorcerers to is to use their soul as a conduit, a portal to the demonic realms and channel the demonic energy which is what passes for "normal matter" in those worlds.

Pale Fire wrote:

Demoniac Divas

I guess that should be "deva", or am I completely mistaken. For some reason your bard thing got me thinking of the diva in 5th Element.

Pale Fire wrote: As for demon/daimon/daemon. I believe daimon and daemon and demon is pretty much different spellings for an identical thing, the greek name for the genious. When judeochristian lore adopted its use translating their concepts it slowly eclipsed their original use. However we mostly see "demon" used for the j/c version and daimon or daemon when people talk about the greek thing. However, that is not always the case.

Pale Fire wrote: I use the word demon for them exactly because the name is loaded.

BUT could we try to get back to the original point of this posting? (boy do my treads get side-tracked a lot). As a reminder it was:

"How do I on one hand keep the players afraid of the effects of the taint and on the other don't use it to destroy their character concepts, when their fear of taint is based exactly on that it might destroy their concept?"

Chris, you're starting to get it. Being a Sorcerer is a little like walking around with a nuclear backpack powering your superpowers or something. If you keep it charged, it's gonna be bad for you. You use it, it's gonna be bad for you. But it's very powerful, not less so as a deterrent.

As for the actual mechanics to handle taint, I already have a few versions, I don't worry so much about that.

What I'm worrying about is how much the deterrent (mutagenic stuff) is going to reduce the enjoyment for the players. (See the first post ;) )

Pale Fire wrote: Chris, you're starting to get it. Being a Sorcerer is a little like walking around with a nuclear backpack powering your superpowers or something. If you keep it charged, it's gonna be bad for you. You use it, it's gonna be bad for you. But it's very powerful, not less so as a deterrent.

Pale Fire wrote: As for the actual mechanics to handle taint, I already have a few versions, I don't worry so much about that.

What I'm worrying about is how much the deterrent (mutagenic stuff) is going to reduce the enjoyment for the players. (See the first post ;) )

Unfortunately I don't have a group here in Taiwan (here to study chinese), so I'm thinking of different venues to play it. One might be free form just to get a feel of the world, another, a little later might be run over chat or something.

I had an idea on how to solve the taint problem in another thread, look here for it.

Spelljammers: Never played it but I saw the ads for the box if that helps? :)