Okay, you'll have to excuse me if this isn't incredibly coherent. I'm just tossing around ideas at present. I want to hear people's responses and thoughts, and I may write the whole thing up in a more structured form later.

I'm deliberately avoid use of any GNS-related terminology here. Treat everything I say as having big <GNS off> tags around it.

I had some thoughts the other night. Character is the chief focus of most, if not all RPGs. What I mean by this, is that most (if not all) RPGs are games in which each player has a character (or group of characters) that the play, and in which the focus of play is on these player characters (PCs). These characters are usually (if not always) defined by a character sheet of some description. Such character sheets are usually (if not always) split into distinct sections, representing different aspects of the character.

Given this, how much does the layout of, arrangement of sections on, and space given to each thing on the character sheet affect the way in which PCs are created and played? And what about the order in which each section is focussed on during character creation?

Most of the systems I've seen have a very linear approach to character creation. You deal with x category of characteristics, then y category, then z, etc.

When I make characters, I usually start with an idea. Not an over-arching, full-blown concept, just a simple gimmick, quirk, or image. I'm going to call this thing a 'schtick', for the sake of clarity. Examples of schticks might be that the character is extremely rich (Resources 5+ in Storyteller), is a Templar (Deadlands:HoE), or uses a particular weapon (a double-bladed lightsaber in Star Wars). The character's schtick is something that is a vital part of the concept of the character in my mind.

Now, if I'm making a character in, say, Storyteller, I don't get to give my character his schtick of Resources 5 until relatively late in the normal character creation process. I have to deal with all the other stuff first. The way all of the character's components are laid out on the sheet reflect and reinforce this.

It came to me that perhaps if the order of character creation, and the layout of sections on the character sheet were altered, this might help me to build up a character from the schtick. I could establish the schtick, then add elements related to the schtick, then those elements less related.

To help with this, I sketched a rough outline of a character sheet that might encourage this sort of approach. I'm going to refer to it over the next paragraph or two, so here it is for your viewing pleasure.

[img]http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/users/e4bc3701/bc/My+Photos/Schticks.gif?bc9Og09APF_MS1Yr[/img]

Now, I've used Vampire as an example game for this type of character sheet, but with a little customizing, the idea could be used for just about any game.

The idea is that the schtick is added first, in the red box, followed by the particular elements from the other categories that support, or are related to the schtick. In this example, I've used Intelligence from the Attributes category, to suggest that the character uses his Intelligence to help him maintain his riches; Law from Abilities, because the character has made his money as a lawyer; Contacts from Backgrounds, because the character mixes with his fellow rich, and the Flaw, Prey Exclusion: The Rich, for the same reason; Dominate from Disciplines, as this also helps him maintain his fortune. After that, one would move on to the other things in the various categories.

You could put just about anything in the schtick box. Anything that you could put on a character sheet that you want the character to have, or be. If there are game statistics or rules for it, you can put it there. Hell, even if there aren't you could probably still put it there. The schtick acts as a foundation on which the other elements are built.

I needn't have put something in each of the 'secondary and supporting characteristics' boxes either. And I could just as easily have had two or three things in a particular 'supporting' box.

The point of all this, is that it is a method of character creation that encourages the development of the kind of character the player wants to play. By focussing on the element the player already has fixed in their mind, and moving out from there, that original element is not diminished or distracted from by the process.

So, how does your character sheet and creation process reflect the kind of character players will create? Can players start with a simple idea and move outwards from there?

And how do you think this way of doing things will affect the way you and other players create their characters?

Hi Adrian,

This has been a big issue for me throughout my experience of role-playing. I knew, for instance, that a traditional character sheet would detract from playing Sorcerer; I also knew that big blank spaces in the free-form tradition were not functional (Sorc is not a free-form game).

So we had a big discussion about it in a
Character sheet design call thread at the Gaming Outpost, and the results may be found at the Downloads page at the Sorcerer website. The original versions were by Paul Mason (after my design specs) and Ben Morgan modified them later.

Ben Morgan seems to be the main man these days for character sheet design, combining graphics with layout in a way that is meant to reinforce the goals inherent in the game. You can see his stuff in many of the games available at Memento-Mori and lots of other places too.

One of my ongoing concerns with character sheets is the role they play in use, i.e., checking stuff off, keeping track of things, and so on. A lot of combat-oriented games' sheets have demonstrated to me that a chart or ladder is much better for tracking wounds/damage than a plain box to erase and scribble in repeatedly.

Since metagame mechanics are often major aspects of play in a lot of games, it strikes me as odd that they are rarely trackable on sheets in that fashion - e.g. in Hero Wars, in which Hero Points are a crucial and fascinating part of play, there ain't nowhere on the sheet for them, much less any way to track them in a basic way.

Best,
Ron

P.S. Your <GNS off> puzzles me, for a number of reasons. Send me a PM or email if you're interested in helping me understand it. No need to discuss that here.

Quick comment: Honestly, putting space on a sheet for 'consumables' is usually a waste of time in my option. Only values that change slowly should go on a sheet. Anything else just tends to make the sheet messy. (You have to erase, write in, tally in the margins or something).

Relative to SW:You have a good idea, although because of the way people read, the thing they see first is the top. (This is why we have headlines, abstracts, and opening newspaper paragraphs)
I would suggest makeing the sheet as a couplie tiers, Top is most important(schtick) and below it is other stuff in order of importance. You don't HAVE to put the name at the top.

I just wanted to start of by saying that any diagram that puts the word, "schtick" in big bold red is great and funny as hell. I think more technical terms should be as fun as this one.

That said I wanted to comment on the order in which we create characters. I would argue that any game that has something called or resembling attributes will automatically cause the average player to fill them in first. We are trained to do so because they've historically been the foundation from which we build characters. I'd go so far to say that even if you put the Att. section of the character sheet on the last page on the bottom of a seven page workbook, players would still want to fill it in first.

...but, they may start to get the idea. I think that if you want to get players to develop characters in an order counter-intuitive to the historical model, then you need to place the sections in odd positions on the page. Or you need to seperate the sections and disperse them thoughout the page. For example, you could take each one of the four attributes in my imaginary example game and integrate them with skill sections or descriptor sections, and then move those larger sections into weird places on the page.

However, you have to be careful not to wreck the structure of the sheet. It still has to be useful during game play and easy to read.

One idea that I always found interesting was the worksheet method of character creation. On the first piece of paper was a worksheet with a bunch of steps telling you how to create your character, and when the whole thing was said and done you transfered the pertinent information onto the much more useful in-game character sheet proper.

Hi there,

Tim's point brings up a central issue: what's the sheet for? Making a character, or playing the character?

As I mentioned in my essay, "layering" is a feature of RPG character creation in many, many systems. People are often used to starting with one set of numbers, then deriving a secondary set, and then using combinations of these numbers to derive or determine certain other things. For these games, character sheets are often literally worksheets, much like algebra worksheets in high school.

Whereas playing the character often references values on the sheet, which may or may not be the same ones that are most obviously placed in a worksheet. Are these values easy to find? If the values change, is there room or perhaps a method to do so?

It strikes me that the "creation sheet" for steps to make a character and the actual "play sheet" for the use of a character are two very different things and might be best kept separate.

Best,
Ron

As examples of what I do when designing a character sheet:

---

Chthonian, the only change I would make from the current sheet to a final one would be a neat border and better art. I added rules summaries all over the sheet so that someone can quickly figure out how to play even after the briefest introduction.

The System is supported by character sheet. The first chart (on the right) shows steps in a roll. Since every roll uses a Skill, the Skills are on the left with the basic roll rules on the right. Safety and Sanity are used both during a roll (optional) and after a roll (most often), which means they are lumped with appropriate charts at the bottom.

http://www.harlekin-maus.com/chthonian/chthonian_charsheet_1_2.pdf

---

Fighter-D Alpha, my weird cousin to Donjon, has all that is needed for play, including little point totals for easy reference. Unfortunately, I couldn't fit the 1 Success = 1 Fact + 1 Danger die rule summary on the sheet. I really should. Other than that, here are a few design considerations:
- All Scores have the spiky circle or a square, underlines are for words being filled in.
- Danger is a massive circle, big enough to put the Danger dice in. Instead of writing (and rewriting) a number for a Danger die pool (which is a constantly shifting number), I find it easier to just have the Players plunk a bunch of dice in a designated area.

http://www.harlekin-maus.com/fighterd/fd_charsheet.pdf

Long, long ago, I designed separate "character worksheets" and "character reference sheets" for Classic Traveller, on exactly the rationale Ron describes. (GDW provided design forms for starships, but not for characters, even though the design process was almost as complex....) Would've been useful for Champions too, but I never played enough of that (or GURPS) to make it worth the effort.

For Mind's Eye Theatre LARPs, I always used a standard legal pad to make characters (dividing the ruled left margin into two columns to track freebie point gains and expenditures, with the actual character traits on the main part of the page) before transferring the results to a character sheet. That worked well enough that I didn't need to make an actual form for the purpose.

Spreasheets for character generation. Then a nice printed version that comes off of that. Put it on the website. For better distribution, put it in Java or whatever. Player logs on, makes character in no time, prints it out, and is ready for play.

Or even better, just keeps the character on his laptop, and works from there.

Mike

Here's an example: Steve Jackson's In Nomine is a game with an absolutely (IMO) fascinating background. However, an unfortunate combination of (again, IMO) overcomplicated system and poor layout and editing have caused me to very nearly pull my hair out. I actually still have up on my site both the character sheet (which I am quite proud of) and the character creation worksheet I had to come up with, simply because people couldn't keep the process straight in their heads, never mind all the page flipping back and forth (okay, Choir, Superior, Attunements, Forces, Attributes, Resources, Skills, Vessels, Roles, Artifacts, Servants, Songs, Rites, aaaaaaaarrrrrrrgh, I'm going insane). If I were to run the game again anytime soon (and it is on the very long list of games I really want to run) I would strip the system down a LOT, probably reducing all those different things into something simpler and more unified, like "Keywords" or something.

Most recently, I've really fallen in love with several fairly related concepts:
1. Single page character sheets. Mostly because I hate flipping the sheet over to find stuff, and I seem to be the only one in my group that can figure out how to print them double-sided.
2. A simple enough system that once all the character info is on the sheet, there's still room left over for quick reference stuff.

See my stuff for octaNe and InSpectres for examples of both of these.

Actually, now that I think of it, octaNe is a perfect sheet to look at (if I do say so myself), because the design really doesn't emphasize any particular character element over another (with the possible exception of Plot Points and maybe Styles, but only because of the bigger font size).

Side Notes:

Zak: Today is the first time I've had a chance to take a look at the Cthonian character sheet. I absolutely love it. I wouldn't change a thing (I think the artwork on it now stands quite excellently on its own, and the font is quite nifty), but if you really want to put a border around it, that's cool, too.

Ron: Thanks for the mention. I still get a thrill out of this whole "people actually come to me for advice and stuff" thing.

I love to make character sheets. I actually make unique character sheets for all my characters. I even do it for other players too.

Here are a few examples (WARNING these are HUGE and a lot of formatting has been lost because of MS Publisher's conversion to HTML.)

Alana (pretty much based off of the character pictured...)
Nikkie (a cyborg character...)
Unamed (an unfinished character sheet for my brother's charachter)

I tend to worry more about the feel that the character sheet invokes and keeping all important information on one page.

-Joshua

The process of creating a character in OAD&D was rather complex when it first came out, and each additional volume increased the complexity. I became aware that to fully create a character from nothing, not limited in any way, I needed a almost dozen hard cover books on hand for reference--

• Players Handbook for a wealth of basic information.
• Dungeons Master Guide for ages, previous skills, MU starting spells, and some other miscellany.
• Monster Manual for some detail on PC races from the PH.
• Unearthed Arcana for several classes and races added, weapon specialization, and other modifications.
• Dragonlance for Krynn-based characters.
• Oriental Adventures for Oriental characters, equipment, and such.
• Monster Manual II for race info on Deurgar.
• Fiend Folio for race information on Drow and Svirfneblin.
• Deities & Demigods to select a deity.
• Dungeoneers Survival Guide for many non-weapon proficiencies and some equipment.

• Wilderness Survival Guide for additional non-weapon proficiencies and equipment.


Add to this that there was never any revised suggested sequence for doing this, and the original suggested sequence didn't work well at all--it started with race and went to class, when nine out of ten players will know what class or class combination they want to be, and so will pick a race based on that. Yet sequence was important. If you rolled natural psionics, that would impact what spells you carried. If you came up short of stature, certain weapons were forbidden. Your choice of weapons and armor might be influenced by your hit point roll. Again and again in character creation I ran into "Yes, but before I can do that I have to go back and do this."

I wound up creating a "character creation document", in which I attempted to sequence the steps of character creation such that nothing was done before its prerequisites, and to incorporate synopses of all the information the player would need to make his choice. It was over a hundred pages and not near finished when I abandoned the document format (and quite a few friends had been happy to have old copies whenever I printed the new expanded versions), so I converted it all into a web site. Although it is somewhere near two hundred cross-indexed web pages, I missed a few things--there are deities in the Greyhawk rules that are not included yet (which means one more book).

But it didn't much matter whether the player used scrap paper to record the information in the order it was rolled or went directly to the character sheet with it (caveat: "rolling scores" and "adjusting scores" were separate consecutive steps, but you'd want to put the scores on scrap paper when they were rolled, and then adjust them before adding them to the sheet, if the sheets were handwritten). My own character sheets didn't pay any attention to the order in which characters were created, focusing instead on having commonly accessed materials readily available and trivial information squeezed into the cracks where it could be found at need.

It took several attempts to get character creation for Multiverser really working well, and in the end we were pretty close to where we started--get the important things on paper, then start to play, then fill in the rest as you go. I use four sheets. The fourth is for very brief history of where the character has been, the third for equipment, the second for skills, and the first for everything else (includes attributes, description, weaknesses, and aliases). This allows the sheet to be expanded at need, in essence by adding another page of skills or another page of equipment when the character overflows the first. We don't have the schtick problem, usually, because it's an I-game; but in those situations in which a player wants to play a "not I" character obviously he and the referee would discuss what the character is really like and then work out the details from that.

--M. J. Young

"Boink"

M.J. ... hey, I had an idea. Do you think there's any feature of an I-game that leads to different needs or standards for character sheet design? I'm thinking of the difference between Villains & Vigilantes and Stuper Powers, both I-games, in which the former (late 70s) uses the standard attributes of the time, i.e. you transcribe "yourself" onto the sheet; and in which the latter (mid-late 90s) does not - you merely "can" do the stuff that everyone at the table knows you can, subject to the one-step simplistic system for the game.

By the way, this is a great thread, and I'd like to comment more on stuff that's shown up. Josh (enoch), I suggest that people might want to use your character sheet customizing for their games, if you're willing.

Best,
Ron

Enoch wrote: I love to make character sheets. I actually make unique character sheets for all my characters. I even do it for other players too.

Here are a few examples (WARNING these are HUGE and a lot of formatting has been lost because of MS Publisher's conversion to HTML.)

I tend to worry more about the feel that the character sheet invokes and keeping all important information on one page.

-Joshua

Josh (enoch), I suggest that people might want to use your character sheet customizing for their games, if you're willing.

Those are gorgeous! Nice work. More evidence of the great spectrum of interest in character sheet presentation. I like presentation and want snazzy sheets like that, while my friend John is happy with something that looks like it came off a typewriter.

Hi Joshua,

Yeah, I'm one of those people who flips to the sheet and to the character creation section first thing.

And yes, the Connections forum is just where your sheet-creation skills will be appreciated. With you and Ben Morgan around, I foresee some very fine resources for Forge games-makers.

Best,
Ron

Character Sheets are a window into the core design priorities of the game. Even poorly designed sheets generally start with the idea of putting the information that is most critical or frequently referred to on the sheet. Therefor, such a sheet is an indication of what the designer feels is critical or will be used most often in the game. From that one can extrapolate. Its quick and dirty at best, but there are games I've promptly returned to the shelves all but unflipped through after 1 look at the character sheet.

I just want second what Valamir said. The character sheet, particularly for a gamer with a wide range of rpg experience, can provide a fairly accurate snapshot of what a game is about and how it goes about it. I find it to be an excellent starting point when perusing a new game.

-Chris

Eh. I dunno. I think that mostly character sheets are ill designed such that certain things are just listed top right because they are done first in generation, or just at random. In fact I think this is traditional. Take GURPS the character sheets all put the characters stats in the upper left. But in play they are mostly inored for all sorts of stats based off of them. I think they do this because early D&D sheets had the stats in the upper left. Those too are nigh useless in play. Bu use, the THAC0 should be in that spot.

I wouldn't put too much faith in basing your opinion of a game on the character sheet.

Mike

I know I've said it before, but it bears mentioning again. The character sheet is the one page (or set of pages) in the book ("old-school" games such as Palladium FRP aside) that players will be looking at the most during a game. So you might as well make it look cool.

The trick is the balancing act between the aesthetics and the organization.

Ron Edwards wrote: "Boink"

M.J. ... hey, I had an idea. Do you think there's any feature of an I-game that leads to different needs or standards for character sheet design? I'm thinking of the difference between Villains & Vigilantes and Stuper Powers, both I-games, in which the former (late 70s) uses the standard attributes of the time, i.e. you transcribe "yourself" onto the sheet; and in which the latter (mid-late 90s) does not - you merely "can" do the stuff that everyone at the table knows you can, subject to the one-step simplistic system for the game.

nice thread... I've been thinking about character sheet design myself lately, and here's something that occured to me: I like it better when a copy of the character sheet is shown before character generation is described. it mentally prepares players for what they need to do, plus it gives an outline of the steps in character generation. if the sheet is designed correctly, of course.

this is one reason why the GURPS "attributes in upper left" didn't bother me, because you needed to set your attributes first most of the time. also, IQ rolls and DX rolls are pretty common...

still, I find that the right-hand side of a character sheet is the most used during play. GURPS has the skill list on the right side (at least in some designs.) Sorcerer has that important number scale going down the edge (I like that a lot.)

maybe that's a good character sheet design concept: left side = first character creation steps, right side = most used in play.

I think that there's a lot of truth in the character-sheet-org-as-order-of-generation theory. I hadn't really devoted that much thought to the issue and went and had a look at some of the BRP variant character sheets I designed ( I do this a lot as I game quite a bit in French but English is my native tongue and it's also the language I buy stuff in mostly) and from top left to bottom right over the page it did reflect what I thought was order of generation. From Stats to skills to name and background through to magic.

One thing that occurs to me though is that while this is fantastic as a heuristic for character creation, is it really that useful in play? Surely the usefulness of a sheet in character creation is very much secondary to its usefulness in play?

For example here are a few things that occur to me :

* Why is name first? Surely that's only there so that people can recognise the character in a folder... even the most distracted of players doesn't really need to look up the name of his character during play?

* Why are resources such as money or hitpoints given a small box? These are usually the things that get rubbed out and rewritten most so some kind of decimal place slot system would be useful for money and it should be prominent on the sheet and probably at the front. The same goes for equipment in games where this is important.

* In many well-meaning games (i.e. games with narrativist or anti-gamist pretentions) there are slots for background. Why? Surely a blank page would serve just as well? One theory might be that by putting it there you're encouraging your players to come up with a back-story for their characters... in people's expericnce is this true?


I think character sheet design is DEFINITELY one of those areas of gaming where too much is owed to the D&D history of the hobby. the best example of this is actualy Amber which has one of the worst character sheets I've ever seen. The things it allows you to keep track of aren't what are actually important in the game and it also gives far too much space to unimportant stuff that could be handled in a smaller way.

for example, to my mind one of the key elements of cracter definiton in Amber is what the character did before he started play... where did he come from? what did he study? basically indication of what it's reasonable for the character to know and be able to do. This isn't handled AT ALL by the sheet. Iem and shadow construction though get a whole page when surely a line would be sufficient?

MR. Analytical wrote: I think that there's a lot of truth in the character-sheet-org-as-order-of-generation theory. I...had a look at some of the BRP variant character sheets I designed...and from top left to bottom right over the page it did reflect what I thought was order of generation. From Stats to skills to name and background through to magic.

MR. Analytical wrote: * Why is name first? Surely that's only there so that people can recognise the character in a folder... even the most distracted of players doesn't really need to look up the name of his character during play?

MR. Analytical wrote: * Why are resources such as money or hitpoints given a small box? These are usually the things that get rubbed out and rewritten most so some kind of decimal place slot system would be useful for money and it should be prominent on the sheet and probably at the front. The same goes for equipment in games where this is important.

MR. Analytical wrote: * In many well-meaning games (i.e. games with narrativist or anti-gamist pretentions) there are slots for background. Why? Surely a blank page would serve just as well? One theory might be that by putting it there you're encouraging your players to come up with a back-story for their characters... in people's expericnce is this true?