One of the things I don't like about TROS sorcery, at least from the point of view of a player, is that even with the extra dice from Spiritual-Attribute-motivated spells it's quite hard to resist aging; sorcerers should have at least some freedom to cut loose with raging floods of power without burning up to a year of their life. So I propose the following variation:

Instead of aging months with failed aging resistance rolls, a sorcerer accumulates points of Strain; for every month he would have aged in the normal system through magic use, he acquires a point of Strain in the same way. All sorcerers now have an additional Derived Attribute called Capacity, which equals TO x 3 -- this is the maximum Strain they can take without aging. Once their Strain rises past their Capacity, they suffer aging: 1 month for every point of Strain over Capacity, with knockout rolls as usual.

Strain can be eliminated by rest and meditation. Resting while conscious and relaxing (not travelling, working hard or fighting) eliminates 1 Strain point per hour; meditating in trance (successful WP/Meditation roll) eliminates 2 Strain per hour. A restful night's sleep (at least four uninterrupted hours) eliminates all Strain.

What this does is essentially create a "buffer" of points that still provides a limit to the most excessive uses of sorcery while still freeing up sorcerers to have more fun with their powers, and not requiring them to either parsimoniously count out TNs or use magic only for the most soul-crucial tasks.

Reactions?

Stephen-

Depending on what you're trying to accomplish with your game this is either unneccessary OR a really great idea. It depends on your goals.

If you want magic to be used in greater quantities and qualities with less punishment (as some folks do) then this is a wonderful way of doing that. If you want magic to be painful (which I do), then I'd leave things as-is.

Have you played the sorcery section as-is? I assume so, but if not, it would certainly be worth a try. If so, then I assume that these mods and questions you have are all trying to tweak it to your liking (something I heartily approve of).

Jake

Jake Norwood wrote: If you want magic to be used in greater quantities and qualities with less punishment (as some folks do) then this is a wonderful way of doing that. If you want magic to be painful (which I do), then I'd leave things as-is.

Hi there,

I'd like to emphasize something I didn't make explicit in the essay I contributed to the rules, and I wish I had.

Spiritual Attribute bonuses apply to rolls, not to pools. This means that if you have a Sorcery Pool and you split it in half, one-half for the spell and one-half to resist aging, then the SA bonus for this action can apply to each half in full.

For a full-on balls-to-the-wall, really-mean-it moment of sorcery, that's twenty-five extra dice to each roll. Now for the key point: don't split the pool into halves, after all. Say your Sorcery pool is (um) 9 dice. Put one whole die into the spell and save eight for aging.

Now look: 1 + 25 = 26 dice for the spell, and 8 + 25 = 33 against the successes of the first roll (which is damn well gonna be less than 26). See? Sorcery gets lots less risky when the character cares, and the better your pool, the more reliable this trick is, just as it should be.

Spells in TROS are not any-use tools - they are expressions of passion. The sorcerers who wanna play ego-games and blow up stuff all 'round for trivial reasons are the ones who shrivel up, whereas the ones who have focused and scary passions will live long, effective, and world-changing lives.

Best,
Ron

Another option to lessen the Danger of magic is to allow the use of dice to resist aging without "expending" those dice. In other words if I have an SP of 9 and cast a spell with 2 dice I can resist with 7. Then my SP would be 7 until I refresh either normally or in another modification at a slower rate than normal.
Im tired so that may not make sense, let me know.

Stephen wrote: One of the things I don't like about TROS sorcery, at least from the point of view of a player, is that even with the extra dice from Spiritual-Attribute-motivated spells it's quite hard to resist aging; sorcerers should have at least some freedom to cut loose with raging floods of power without burning up to a year of their life. So I propose the following variation:

Instead of aging months with failed aging resistance rolls, a sorcerer accumulates points of Strain; for every month he would have aged in the normal system through magic use, he acquires a point of Strain in the same way. All sorcerers now have an additional Derived Attribute called Capacity, which equals TO x 3 -- this is the maximum Strain they can take without aging. Once their Strain rises past their Capacity, they suffer aging: 1 month for every point of Strain over Capacity, with knockout rolls as usual.

Strain can be eliminated by rest and meditation. Resting while conscious and relaxing (not travelling, working hard or fighting) eliminates 1 Strain point per hour; meditating in trance (successful WP/Meditation roll) eliminates 2 Strain per hour. A restful night's sleep (at least four uninterrupted hours) eliminates all Strain.

What this does is essentially create a "buffer" of points that still provides a limit to the most excessive uses of sorcery while still freeing up sorcerers to have more fun with their powers, and not requiring them to either parsimoniously count out TNs or use magic only for the most soul-crucial tasks.

Reactions?

Ron Edwards wrote: Spiritual Attribute bonuses apply to rolls, not to pools. This means that if you have a Sorcery Pool and you split it in half, one-half for the spell and one-half to resist aging, then the SA bonus for this action can apply to each half in full.

For a full-on balls-to-the-wall, really-mean-it moment of sorcery, that's twenty-five extra dice to each roll. Now for the key point: don't split the pool into halves, after all. Say your Sorcery pool is (um) 9 dice. Put one whole die into the spell and save eight for aging.

Now look: 1 + 25 = 26 dice for the spell, and 8 + 25 = 33 against the successes of the first roll (which is damn well gonna be less than 26). See? Sorcery gets lots less risky when the character cares, and the better your pool, the more reliable this trick is, just as it should be.

Spells in TROS are not any-use tools - they are expressions of passion. The sorcerers who wanna play ego-games and blow up stuff all 'round for trivial reasons are the ones who shrivel up, whereas the ones who have focused and scary passions will live long, effective, and world-changing lives.

If you're going to make a Strain attribute or something, don't make it TOx3. My sorceror would have a Strain of 15 (TO of 5... most sorcerors have high TO because it factors into SP), and thus could cast a 15 TN spell without aging a month. I don't like that.

If it were a small buffer, such as TO or (TO+ST)/2 or Draw, Discipline (the most useless derived statistics) or something similar, then I might buy that. Easy spells (TN 1-5) could easily be cast with no aging, but harder, more powerful spells should always have a consequence (that's why they should be avoided!)

Sorcerors can cast spells as Spells of Three, if they aren't in a rush. This allows not only a bunch of extra dice, but also allows the sorceror to lower the TN by one or two with gestures and dialogue (which is a misleading term, because he isn't speaking to anyone, so it's monologue, but oh well). This means that, prior to his adventuring life, the sorceror hasn't cast many (if any) spells above TN 5 or 6, and then may have used most of his pool to resist aging. This would explain why some sorcerors have very little unnatural aging to begin with.

Hi Stephen,

It's interesting that you're beginning with a concept of what a sorcerer is, then identifying where the system is inconsistent with that concept, rather than working from the system and seeing what behaviors/practices of sorcery are most effective or consistent within that.

First, and least important, I don't see the most successful sorcerer characters placing Vagaries as their A category. Experience with longer-term TROS play has led me to think that a character does very well to set Proficiencies/Vagaries at a lower category and work them up through in-play improvement. Therefore both spell-relevant attributes and CTN-affecting skills can be more reliable than most discussion on this forum seems to take into account. Also, doing this means sorcerers can be made who are pretty good at lots of stuff besides magic - when these guys bulk up their Vagaries through experience, look out.

Second, everything I said about firing with 25 extra dice also applies to(say) 10 SA dice total. If my Pool is 6, and I get those 10 dice for each roll, then I can have 11 on the spell roll and 15 on the aging roll; if I rack that Pool up to (say) 12 through experience, then it's 11 on the spell roll and 21 on the aging roll if I'm using the same tactic. Not bad!

Third, I think the very concept of "day to day" sorcery is not especially consistent with TROS magic as written. People are so used to the idea of the levels-based magic in traditional role-playing, that they begin to take it as an assumption that "magic works that way," with smaller and less harmful spells being taught, and working up to massive and dangerous magic later. I suggest instead that magic in TROS ... is massive and dangerous. Learning it would involve a lot of practice with "dead" ammunition, so to speak, and unleashing it for real is a matter of grave import and nothing to do with "day to day" concerns.

Fourth, I think that an all-sorcerer or nearly-all-sorcerer game would be just the ticket for a great game, specifically because wyverns will be summoned, the dead will rise to fight, and cities will be destroyed. Your admonition to suppress this possibility sounds to me as if you might fear "losing" something as GM. Perhaps that something is really not so terrible to lose.

Best,
Ron

Stephen wrote: especially given that aging rolls require you to beat not just an Aging TN but to get that many successes, as well.

I wouldn't say that they don't last long... after all, they are most of the very select group of ROS PCs that die of... (shudder) old age.
:-)

Unless they cast the very special ritual from OBAM that'll give them.. err.. 523 extra years (I think.. that's from memory).

Of course, there is a drawback or two... ;-)

[edit]
Actually, I should note at this point that this ritual is not actually "canon" TROS - it's from a section of the book that is "unofficial"
[/edit]

Brian.

Hey Ron,

I appreciate you taking the time to explain this to me; I do like the game, I just have these little quibbles that trouble me, and I appreciate your patience.

Ron Edwards wrote: Everything I said about firing with 25 extra dice also applies to(say) 10 SA dice total. If my Pool is 6, and I get those 10 dice for each roll, then I can have 11 on the spell roll and 15 on the aging roll; if I rack that Pool up to (say) 12 through experience, then it's 11 on the spell roll and 21 on the aging roll if I'm using the same tactic. Not bad!

Ron Edwards wrote: I think the very concept of "day to day" sorcery is not especially consistent with TROS magic as written. People are so used to the idea of the levels-based magic in traditional role-playing, that they begin to take it as an assumption that "magic works that way," with smaller and less harmful spells being taught, and working up to massive and dangerous magic later. I suggest instead that magic in TROS ... is massive and dangerous. Learning it would involve a lot of practice with "dead" ammunition, so to speak, and unleashing it for real is a matter of grave import and nothing to do with "day to day" concerns.

Hi Stephen,

Actually, it's your patience I'm appreciating. I was afraid my last post was too patronizing.

Let's hash out this all-SA's thing a wee bit more. In my last example, I specified that 10 SA points were being employed (to get away from the all-at-5 assumption). I think you're mistaking me to say that all five SA's are being employed. In fact, those 10 points don't even have to be coming from all 5 SA's.

Let me illustrate. Say Van Helminck, a made-up-this-instant sorcerer character, currently has Destiny 3, Passion 2, Luck 5, Conscience 1, and Faith 2. This is a pretty standard profile for a TROS PC who's been SA-active session after session, without deliberately "lining them all up."

OK, he's all busy with some conflict. Say ... oh, two of his SA's can be involved. (Which is not at all hard to imagine; arguably, a mindful TROS player will simply angle hard toward conflicts which involve his or her SA's anyway, and a mindful GM is pumping SA-relevant plot hooks at them constantly; otherwise, what's the point?) Say they're Destiny and Faith, for 5 points. Cool! The very act of using those two SA's, in this situation, nets him at least one more point per SA (see the rules!), quite likely more. Let's call it three added total.

Next action: that's 8 points for using these two SA's again, and this time the player spends 2 Luck - bam! 10 points, as in my example.

Next action? Why look, both of those SA's have gone up friggin' again, and let's call it three total again! That would be 11 total, except that they max at 5, so now he's got 10 points total just from them. H'm, could he wangle his Conscience into the situation, depending on what it is? If his Passion is consistent with his Faith, maybe that's in there two. And he still has those three points of Luck if he needs them.

My point? Ten SA dice isn't very hard to get, even if you're using only two of your SA's, not all five. I also suggest that a mindful player can line up four or five SA's without terrible trouble - certainly, not for a "stupid goblin leaps from bushes" encounter, but definitely when it counts, emotionally.

Also, if a sorcerer is flinging around 15-dice and 20-dice pool rolls around, then he's almost sure to get the "best roll" Luck point bonus most sessions, so sorcerer Luck tends to be pretty high.

You wrote,
"No day-to-day sorcery" is an atmospheric tradition left over from TROS's pulp antecedents, where sorcerers were always rare, mysterious, never understood and hideously powerful. But the impression one always gets upon visiting these sorcerers' lairs is that in the lairs and in the sorcerer's daily life, magic WAS a common thing. That, after all, is all "magic" is: something somebody else knows how to do that you don't. And the magical traditions of the real world weren't about cataclysmic power used on sparse, crucial occasions to serve overwhelming purpose; they were about daily practice, philosophical understanding, steady expansion of ability and quieter, longer-term desires for understanding. Yet even the best CTN-juggler will gradually lose a month or two every week, if he tries to use TROS magic this way; the odds inevitably catch up with him."

I'd like to examine this claim in detail. (1) Studying magic and practicing magic do not have to be defined as casting magic, in TROS terms. This is a very difficult concept for people - that guy's "doing magic," right? That means a spell roll, right? Wrong. He's working up his Ritual skill; he's working up his Language skill; he's working up his Vagary total. None of this presupposes that he's casting real magic at any point.

(1') Perhaps he does actually cast a spell as "practice," once in a while - trying out a Formalized spell in the best conditions, taking huge CTN reductions for casting time, using the best materials in the most relaxed conditions, putting eensy amounts of his pool into the spell-casting and reserving the lion's share for the aging resistance. But remember: nothing about the TROS rules says that you must cast a spell successfully in order to build your sorcery Vagaries higher. That's a BRP rule; it ain't in TROS.

(2) What source material are you actually talking about? Let's toss out all RPG-based assumptions, immediately: no modules, adventure scenarios, or fiction based on RPGs - poof. Let's also toss out all B-movies like Ator and so on. Let's hop back to the real pulp fiction: Robert E. Howard, Clark Ashton Smith, and Fritz Leiber; we can also include their true heirs, like Jessica Amanda Salmonson, Michael Moorcock, and Karl Edward Wagner. L. Sprague deCamp and Lin Carter are emphatically not invited. Looking at these works, most of the day-to-day sorcery is actually technology: drugs, alchemy/chemistry, and hypnotism. When magic gets used, huge catacombs to Otherworlds yawn open, reality twists and bends, the distinction between past and present fades, and huge friggin' entities wreak enormous havoc. That day-to-day stuff you're referencing doesn't look like "magic in action" to me, but rather study, reflection, and preparation.

I am not sure at all what you mean by magic traditions "of the real world," which frankly mean absolutely nothing to TROS. It's based on the literature I mention, not on mumbledy-babble historical occultism or doddering soothsayers or reading cards.

Anyway, this is an interesting conversation. Again, I'm hoping that it's enjoyable and I'm not aggravating you.

Best,
Ron

It's actually not as "limited" as you seem to think... If your looking for relatively low CTN spells with a really big bang, you can cause a kiloton-level event from a good mile away with a simple movement spell and a big rock. T-1, R-1, V-3, D-0, V-3 = 8... minus 1 or two for gestures and w have a spell with a TN of 6 or 7 that can litterally flatten a decent sized city from miles away.

... or use a pebble, lower your tn by a further two and have something thats equivalent to a plasma cannon. And you have a spell with a CTN of 4 or 5 that can take out a good chunck of an army... or turn a giant in full plate into giblets...

Or if you want to spendsome time on a big spell, you can do some summoing/imprisoning and make a few magical items that out can use whenever you feel like a little or no cost. Liek a sword with a movement spell attached to increase the power of your swings, make it easier to handle... or simply make it invisible to your enemies with a glamour... the possibilities are more or less limitless and they're a one-time expenditure if you do it right.

Mayhem1979 wrote: If your looking for relatively low CTN spells with a really big bang, you can cause a kiloton-level event from a good mile away with a simple movement spell and a big rock. T-1, R-1, V-3, D-0, V-3 = 8... minus 1 or two for gestures and w have a spell with a TN of 6 or 7 that can litterally flatten a decent sized city from miles away.

No... throwing around objects at high farctions of C is not agood idea (a atom of iron going at C theoretically has infinite energy, so that would be enough to shatter Weyrth though) ... but a 5 m chunk of iron going 72.8 km/s will make a boom of well over 300 kilotons...


...take a lead ball and get it going at high-mach and it'll start turning to plasma before it hits... and whatever it hits is going to be little more than toasted chunks of meat, bone, and steel....

I'm going to step in and moderate here. This thread is for Stephen's question and the discussion thereof. While the "big-bang" discussion does show how cheap amazing power can be in TROS, it's also like honey for flies. I officially forbid any discussion of the "big bang" or anything like it in this thread. You can start up another if you like, but I want this one to continue on the path it started (I, for example, and fascinated by Ron and Stephen's discussion).

End moderator mode.

Jake

Ron Edwards wrote: Hi Stephen,

Actually, it's your patience I'm appreciating. I was afraid my last post was too patronizing.

Let's hash out this all-SA's thing a wee bit more.

Say Van Helminck... currently has Destiny 3, Passion 2, Luck 5, Conscience 1, and Faith 2. OK, he's all busy with some conflict. Say ... oh, two of his SA's can be involved. (Which is not at all hard to imagine; arguably, a mindful TROS player will simply angle hard toward conflicts which involve his or her SA's anyway, and a mindful GM is pumping SA-relevant plot hooks at them constantly; otherwise, what's the point?) Say they're Destiny and Faith, for 5 points. Cool! The very act of using those two SA's, in this situation, nets him at least one more point per SA (see the rules!), quite likely more. Let's call it three added total.

Next action: that's 8 points for using these two SA's again, and this time the player spends 2 Luck - bam! 10 points, as in my example.

My point? Ten SA dice isn't very hard to get, even if you're using only two of your SA's, not all five. I also suggest that a mindful player can line up four or five SA's without terrible trouble - certainly, not for a "stupid goblin leaps from bushes" encounter, but definitely when it counts, emotionally.

Also, if a sorcerer is flinging around 15-dice and 20-dice pool rolls around, then he's almost sure to get the "best roll" Luck point bonus most sessions, so sorcerer Luck tends to be pretty high.

Studying magic and practicing magic do not have to be defined as casting magic, in TROS terms. This is a very difficult concept for people - that guy's "doing magic," right? That means a spell roll, right? Wrong. He's working up his Ritual skill; he's working up his Language skill; he's working up his Vagary total. None of this presupposes that he's casting real magic at any point.

Perhaps he does actually cast a spell as "practice," once in a while - trying out a Formalized spell in the best conditions, taking huge CTN reductions for casting time, using the best materials in the most relaxed conditions, putting eensy amounts of his pool into the spell-casting and reserving the lion's share for the aging resistance. But remember: nothing about the TROS rules says that you must cast a spell successfullyin order to build your sorcery Vagaries higher. That's a BRP rule; it ain't in TROS.

Let's hop back to the real pulp fiction: Robert E. Howard, Clark Ashton Smith, and Fritz Leiber; we can also include their true heirs, like Jessica Amanda Salmonson, Michael Moorcock, and Karl Edward Wagner. L. Sprague deCamp and Lin Carter are emphatically not invited.

Looking at these works, most of the day-to-day sorcery is actually technology: drugs, alchemy/chemistry, and hypnotism. When magic gets used, huge catacombs to Otherworlds yawn open, reality twists and bends, the distinction between past and present fades, and huge friggin' entities wreak enormous havoc. That day-to-day stuff you're referencing doesn't look like "magic in action" to me, but rather study, reflection, and preparation.

Hi Stephen!

Great discussion.

You wrote,
There are just too many different varieties of Destiny, Drive, Faith and Passion to imagine finding an easy way to line them up without conscious predesign (which also rubs my writer's instincts the wrong way; an interesting character should regularly be caught in situations where his SAs are pulling him in different directions, in my opinion).

I agree with you in writer's-instincts terms, although I think you are concentrating on the "problem" phase rather than the "resolution" phase.

I also am curious about how much TROS you've actually played - mindful players are very, very good at (a) saying "Aw, shit!" (delightedly) when the SA's get contradictory and (b) reacting appropriately, whether through in-game actions/effects or by metagame simply changing the SA's by spending them out, such that the "realignment" occurs in one or two sessions. I do not consider this process to be a competitive or negative one between GM and players, but rather the shared and often mutualistic process of Narrativist authorship.

Your comment indicates a level of surety about lining up the SA's which I think is only justifiable through extensive play experience.

Regarding Luck, you wrote,
Er, which bonus is this? Don't remember that one. Didn't read Luck that closely.

Whoever gets the highest single roll in a given session automatically gains a point of Luck (meaning an increase, not a "refresh"); whoever gets the lowest single roll in a given session automatically gets the same.

I strongly recommend that everyone playing TROS should read up on how all the SA's are gained and lost, because they are all different. It's astounding how fast many of them ramp up even when rolls fail, and also how easy it is to change them in mid-session.

Well, my inclination that studying and practicing magic has to involve actual use of magic is based on slightly more complex reasoning. Primarily it comes out of the vision of magic as Art, which suggests that one can only get so far on theory and simulation alone; actual performance is required to improve true ability, especially for a mystical peak of psychic exertion.

... for Vagaries in particular, the idea that one can get stronger in magic without actually using that magic feels wrong -- I can imagine improving Ritual and Language through "inactive" practice, but I have always imagined that mystical muscles parallel physical ones: you have to use them and push them to strengthen them.

In this passage as well as in your previous posts, you use the words "feel," "inclination," and "imagine" a lot, as well as a reference to "real world beliefs about psychic abilities" - which is fine, insofar as that's what you're describing, but these are very weak as a foundation for discussing a system/setting's features' validity. Again, my only sources for TROS are (1) the canonical pulp fantasy and any subsequent material that remains true to it, and (2) historically-evocative fiction such as The Trumpeter of Krakow or the Crusades fiction by Graham Shelby (sort of historical-romance without the bodices).

Oh thank God, someone who actually knows the real pulp stuff! Plus using some of the finest sources for discussion. Here we go.

Khemsa throws around Level 3 Conquers like they're going out of style without visibly breaking a sweat, getting stronger with each one rather than weaker (though there's a lot of SA-calling upon there in his final confrontation, granted). The Master eviscerates Kerim Shah with a word and a gesture, shapechanges in seconds rather than hours, and gets around on his crimson airborne cloud without invocation or travail. There's enough power tied up in the Foamball Fireballs that I'd certainly demand a casting price out of any PC who tried to create them. None of it costing (or, I'll grant you, appearing to cost at any rate) the kind of sweat, sacrifice, or higher purpose TROS sorcerers have to invest to pull off the same feats. Thoth-Amon and Xaltotun appear equally untroubled by concerns of aging (though Xaltotun, at least, is already dead, which explains that fact).

And all of these work best as embedded spells as I've discussed recently in the Low CTN spells? thread. I maintain that these are the most under-utilized rules in the book, based on forum commentary, and that they make sorcerers astoundingly powerful in the clinch in terms of resisting aging.

Notice that when Khemsa faces an unknown threat, who does not factor into his SA's in combination (i.e. Conan), he falls back on his (considerable) martial arts ability rather than flinging a spell.

Canonically, Thoth-Amon appears in a single Howard story (I do not include The God in the Bowl, nor the re-writing of The Black Stranger in the form of The Treasure of Tranicos as canonical), The Phoenix on the Sword. He clearly relies on his ring - a Gift which presumably carries phenomenal "safety margins" (e.g. lowered CTN) for powerful sorcery, and quite likely a focus for scary-ass embedded spells. His Passions (hatred for Ascalante, pride), Drive (revenge for humiliation), possibly a Destiny (as who would doubt that Thoth-Amon is not destined for something-or-other, even though Howard didn't write about it), and what-the-hell, Luck for the final 5.

As for Leiber, the story "The Lords of Quarmall" is his pull-out-all-the-stops-of-sorcery tale, and there too, when you're actually down and dirty with magic it gets thrown around a lot without apparent sweat or effort. Gwaay and Hasjarl certainly have very powerful hatreds for one another, which explains Gwaay's last spell, but the Mouser's all-powerful sorcerer-killer spell is delivered almost by accident, and again without particular personal investment or consequence. And Sheelba and Ningauble are pretty heavily implied not even to be human, which takes them out of the realm of PC-dom entirely.

Gwaay and Hasjarl are on their home turfs, and presumably embedded stuff is all 'round them. As you say, I think that 20-25 dice for SA's are not unreasonable for them throughout the story; Leiber was deservedly a Grand Master with a strong theater background, and he obviously placed most of his stories in what amounts to the last 20% of the "whole" story for a given scenario - which in TROS terms means the SA's are fired 'way up.

I maintain that the Mouser does not cast the sorcerer-killing spell in TROS terms, but activates Sheelba's spell. It's quite up for grabs whether it "flubs" due to his incompetence or does exactly what Sheelba intended; I tend toward the latter interpretation.

... I will probably still create a "Strain" buffer if I ever play TROS myself (albeit a smaller one than I originally envisioned).

You know what this reminds me of? All those people who went into neophobic-twitch mode upon reading my game Sorcerer and seeing (a) only three scores (with no skills!) and (b) its one-roll initiative/hit/effect system. They all said, "When I play it, I'll add [X]," and then when they did, they said, "Shit, [X] really messed it up and was totally unnecessary."

I suggest trying the game as written. I've played (um) fifty-plus RPGs very seriously (meaning maximum fun) over the last few years, and one insight from that is that reading a game text and knowing how it plays are very, very different things.

Best,
Ron

my thoughts, (i admit im green having run a oneoff 13th warrior TROS and thats about it,)

I like the way sorcery feels, with just a little focus and effort big trouble is yours..... at a cost.

i liked the once mentioned and then ignored idea of not loosing SP when using it to resist the dreaded aging (henceforth and nowon to be called the drain) (no i dont play shadowrun) (much)

By saying you 'useup' SP to cast but not to resist drain i think you end up with more of my image of the sorceror. weith the possible variation (if you like complexity) of having max vag used 1 no SP lost when soaking 1/2 lost on a vag2 and normal service for anything doing a 3

Now imagine we have Gandalf (name out the sky guv, honest) he has a Sp of say 10 (arnt i generous)

he wants to do say a dirt easy vision 1 trick or the move 1 to play chess with a minor telekenetic trick

target number ends up say 3 or 4 with or without tweaking,

now why not gamble roll 1 or 2 die for the effect, it goes off then you have a nice safe 8 dice to get your drain to nadda.

Now if you are aiming at a CTN 6+ the odds are high youll fail or age or have to start doing SA manipulation etc......

It allows the sorceror to impress the natives and gives him the ability to do minor tricks and handy helps.

BUT it also limits him in the more gimmicks the lower the SP gets shaved until he runs the risk of aging anyway,

This allows the odd minor magic nonsence to make people fear the mighty sorceror while still limiting them in that too many triks will cost and performing them at all (because you can) could cause trouble when serious firepower is needed

i like to think of tolkiens Gandalf being like this, able to do a small number of magic tricks a day without to much danger, but remembering to conserve ammo for the real trouble and consequences


but hey this is just my view on an idea that isnt even mine to start with.

Even so im liable to let the system work as it is, just thought to offer a view

Apprentice of Steel wrote:

i like to think of tolkiens Gandalf being like this, able to do a small number of magic tricks a day without to much danger, but remembering to conserve ammo for the real trouble and consequences

Hi there,

The Apprentice's comments apply very well to the psychokinetic chess in The Lords of Quarmall.

Best,
Ron