Topic: Do you ever wonder what's the point?
Started by: Sylus Thane
Started on: 10/18/2002
Board: RPG Theory
On 10/18/2002 at 7:05pm, Sylus Thane wrote:
Do you ever wonder what's the point?
I mean really with all the games out there do you ever wonder what's the point of trying to publish something new? Now I'm not trying to be one of those people that says everythings been done, nothing original will ever come out, that's bogus. My thing is do Indie designers really have a chance? Granted we all try and come up with unique rules mechanics for our games, but what we are really doing for the most part is creating unique settings. What's to say that we shouldn't just pack them all up and ship them to an established generic company like Fudge or D20? Now I'm not saying we should all just give up and sell out. I've just hit a slump and I'm not sure what to do with my game. I find it easy to get new players interested in it, but I have trouble getting old veterans to give it a chance because it's not a published and established game. Does anyone else have this problem? Like i said, I'm just in a slump and needed to vent alittle.
Sylus
On 10/18/2002 at 7:58pm, Mike Holmes wrote:
RE: Do you ever wonder what's the point?
Hey Sylus,
Ralph and I published Universalis and have sold quite a few copies. We feel fairly successful. And this is a game with no setting at all. Just rules. Sorcerer, is also successful, and has no specified setting. Dust Devils sells, Dunjon sells, and other similar Indie games sell with generic settings that have no details at all.
In fact, what Ron has started here is a landslide of designers who believe that setting is only so important, but system is king. And apparently others believe this as well, because the games sell.
TROS has a setting, but the highlight is the combat system. And it's selling really well. Well enough to seriously compare it to "the big guys". And certainly well enough to call it successful.
So do I think that we have a shot? Damn straight. Will we be as successful as "the big guys"? Only one way to find out. But, really, who cares? So long as we feel like our games are a success.
Mike
On 10/18/2002 at 8:09pm, Le Joueur wrote:
Do As Thou Wilt
Sylus Thane wrote: I mean really with all the games out there do you ever wonder what's the point of trying to publish something new?
Nope.
When it comes to creative endeavors, I have only one rationale.
Can I not do it?
Really, it's that simple. I read somewhere that the best advice a famous author felt he could give was to only be a writer if you couldn't help but write. (And it was Patrick Stewart who said, when asked what actors should look for, "Work.") I develop games because I can't stop thinking about game design, pure and simple.
Sylus Thane wrote: My thing is do Indie designers really have a chance?
This is a highly subjective question each of us has to answer for themselves. Yes, every designer has a chance, but to do what? Succeed? What does that mean?
Fiscal success? Critical success? Personal satisfaction at a job well done? Recognition? The list of reasons goes on forever and yours will be unique to you. I find a slump is usually the time I forgot why I do this, what makes it worthwhile. A little soul searching, some time off doing other stuff, and I come up with an answer; maybe not the answer or the old answer, but one's all you need.
I hope life goes well and you find an answer, I know I've enjoyed your commentary and hope things work out.
Fang Langford
p. s. As far as your friends go, if they ask why they should try your design, tell it's cooler than what they're playing. (Otherwise their philistines and you need better playtesters.)
On 10/18/2002 at 9:05pm, greyorm wrote:
RE: Do you ever wonder what's the point?
Become an artist.
Look at all the other wonderful artists out there.
Proceed to ask yourself the same question in regards to art.
Try not to do art.
Answer reached!
On 10/19/2002 at 3:19am, Paganini wrote:
RE: Do you ever wonder what's the point?
greyorm wrote: Become an artist.
Look at all the other wonderful artists out there.
Proceed to ask yourself the same question in regards to art.
Try not to do art.
Answer reached!
Or music.
Heh.
Or anything worth doing right that is frequently screwed up.
On 10/19/2002 at 3:38am, Jonathan Walton wrote:
RE: Do you ever wonder what's the point?
To add my thoughts to the rest of what's been said:
Game design (and roleplaying design in particular) is one of the youngest and most exciting art forms on the planet. Damn! I get goosebumps when I think about it! Roleplaying, at least in the modern formalized sense has been around for how long? 20? 30 years? Ha! No wonder we can't keep our heads from focusing on adolescent power fantasies!
Roleplaying is in its adolescence as an art form. As with comics and animation (two other young art forms), roleplaying has been cast to the side as "only for kids and immature social rejects." But every emerging art form has had to go through a growing process, before it's finally able to prove to the world that it deserves respect and admiration.
And here's the rub: You could be the one to help kick open that door!
In 20 years (or less, even) roleplaying could be where comics and animation are now. Games of significant artisitic merit could be reviewed in the New York Times. Motion picture studios could release a slew of game-based movies that don't suck. There could be a Press Room at GenCon. And I'm completely serious.
But, to get to that point, we all have a long way to go. Games with significant artisitic merit still have trouble finding their audience or even getting published. We all still wear the blinders that make us often reach for multi-sided dice, task-resolution systems, GMs, and other things that are not necessarily critical to roleplaying. And mainstream audiences need to be prepared for gaming to come out of the closet.
But, damn, is it an exciting time to be a game designer! There is potential for an artistic revolution like nothing seen since the Renaissance. What would happen if roleplaying really came into its own and was able to directly affect other existing artforms? Would movies and novels become more immersive? Would there be avante-guard theater written in the 2nd person? Who knows? But it would be really cool.
How could you NOT want to be a part of that?
Later.
Jonathan
On 10/19/2002 at 5:18am, Kester Pelagius wrote:
RE: Do you ever wonder what's the point?
greyorm wrote: Become an artist.
Look at all the other wonderful artists out there.
Proceed to ask yourself the same question in regards to art.
Try not to do art.
Answer reached!
How about trying to be an "author".
Loaded word that, since all of us here are already (technically) writers. Yet there is something more to being a "published author", so too with seeing a game, *your* game, played... But to have it published.
That's something else altogether, isn't it?
Most of us here probably have a ring binder with gaming material, if not a "nearly complete" game. A few of us probably even have a board game or two gathering dust that we started to work on in a back closet. But those games are gathering dust. No one is getting any joy out of them. To know others are enjoying something you have created, well, that's really what game design is all about isn't it?
Oh, yeah, money. I suppose that would be nice. Then again if you want to make money off of games I think the only way to do that is to create a game company, sell chess and checkers, etcetera.
Better question to ask is "why not" try to create a new game?
It's so simple anyone should be able to do it.
Well, ok, maybe not monkeys. Then I've never believed that monkeys would ever be able to eventually type up Shakespeare either.
Kind Regards.
On 10/20/2002 at 5:09am, wyrdlyng wrote:
RE: Do you ever wonder what's the point?
Game Authoring is a creative endeavor like playing music, painting, writing, etc. Creative endeavors are not pursued because they would be neat to pursue but because those that truly pursue them need them as outlets for the creative energies building within. (How's that for the creative process as a metaphor for sex? You feel spent and content after completing either too.)
I paint miniatures because I'll see a miniature and feel that it just has to be painted. I'll write out a setting for a game because the setting just has to be given physical form. Creativity tends to be something that compels us to act rather than something we can tap into when we feel like it.
Just my 2 cents.
On 10/21/2002 at 8:25am, Jeremy Cole wrote:
RE: Do you ever wonder what's the point?
I mean really with all the games out there do you ever wonder what's the point of trying to publish something new?
There isn't a point to a hobby, other than its what we do.
I don't design because it makes me happy, or sad, or anything like that. I design because my random thoughts often turn to settings, because in my spare minutes I detail a variation on some mechanic. It's not really a conscious choice.
For me, personally, I'm going to plug away, and keep on with ce, I've even wandered into a playtest phase now, but haven't even thought of anything like a finished product.
I think the fastest route to crap is to plan your design as an end product, and the biggest mistake you can make.
If design isn't enough of a point by itself, then there isn't a point.
Jeremy
On 10/21/2002 at 8:42am, Andrew Martin wrote:
Re: Do you ever wonder what's the point?
Sylus Thane wrote: I mean really with all the games out there do you ever wonder what's the point of trying to publish something new? Now I'm not trying to be one of those people that says everythings been done, nothing original will ever come out, that's bogus. My thing is do Indie designers really have a chance? Granted we all try and come up with unique rules mechanics for our games, but what we are really doing for the most part is creating unique settings. What's to say that we shouldn't just pack them all up and ship them to an established generic company like Fudge or D20? Now I'm not saying we should all just give up and sell out. I've just hit a slump and I'm not sure what to do with my game. I find it easy to get new players interested in it, but I have trouble getting old veterans to give it a chance because it's not a published and established game. Does anyone else have this problem? Like i said, I'm just in a slump and needed to vent a little.
I'm not a designer. I'm just a player that got unhappy with game systems that continually broke under the pressure of myself and my friends. So because I've been playing for 20 years and it looked as if mainstream RPGs weren't going to change (I didn't know about Indie RPGs at the time), I decided to write up some house rules for my favourite war game system. Then I got a bit more ambitious, and wrote up my S RPG and skirmish combat and magic system, when a friend asked me for one to replace a Games Workshop game that didn't work well.
I like RPGs and want to be a player more than a GM or RPG designer, so I had to design systems that worked smoothly and quickly, and that didn't break under pressure, and that fitted the setting, so the mechanics fitted the setting and aided in suspension of disbelief.
My current RPG systems can't be cut back to fit into D20 or Fudge, without breaking and warping them. They're are D20 and Fudge supersets.
If my RPGs systems help other players get the game experiences they want, they're welcome to them. They're free for game designers to use as they wish.
On 10/21/2002 at 1:57pm, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: Do you ever wonder what's the point?
Hi there,
I decided to give this thread a chance, and although a number of people have provided very good and concise perspectives on themselves, I am still not seeing why the topic is of general interest.
I'm planning on closing the thread, unless anyone would really, really like it to stay open, in which case they can private-message or email me. Let's give it a day to decide.
Best,
Ron
On 10/21/2002 at 3:52pm, Sylus Thane wrote:
Maybe I should of called it what keeps you going?
I guess that was the initial point. What do you do when you've hit a slump? What do you do when the odds seemed stacked against you? I love designing, it's the thrill of creating that drives me, but sometimes you just hit a bump. What do you do when you've hit that bump? Sometimes giving your creation some life seems to have some incredible odds stacked against it. What do you do when you've come up against that wall that looks like it goes on forever and you can't find a ladder?
Sylus
On 10/21/2002 at 4:25pm, Le Joueur wrote:
That's Easy
Sylus Thane wrote: I guess that was the initial point. What do you do when you've hit a slump? What do you do when the odds seemed stacked against you? I love designing, it's the thrill of creating that drives me, but sometimes you just hit a bump. What do you do when you've hit that bump? Sometimes giving your creation some life seems to have some incredible odds stacked against it. What do you do when you've come up against that wall that looks like it goes on forever and you can't find a ladder?
That's easy. Take a break. Go do something else rewarding with the expectation of returning to design. There seems to be an expectation of progress and reward here, but with the loss of perspective. 'Cross training' is a great way to regain the perspective that makes the progress obvious and rewarding.
By 'not thinking about it' you might realize why you do it. Or 'look the other way' until you can tell why you need to look back.
Good luck! (We all hit our slumps, mine hit yesterday, on my birthday no less.)
Fang Langford
On 10/21/2002 at 5:12pm, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: Do you ever wonder what's the point?
Hello,
Sylus, I guess it comes down to this, speaking as a moderator. No one can give you an answer to this question. We can provide our own, individualized answers, which frankly aren't worth much in terms of inspiration. You can't borrow someone else's coping mechanisms, although it might be helpful to learn that they exist (which is why I've permitted this thread to continue).
The key to the entire concern you've raised is that you do not have to design or publish a role-playing game. It's a hobby - bluntly, a leisure, luxury activity. When you don't want to do it, you don't have to, and that's a good thing.
Again, I'm not inclined to permit this thread to continue much longer. The Forge is not intended to provide motivation for anyone; no one is "supposed" to be motivated to design or publish games.
The only thing that will change my mind in that regard is (a) Sylus citing concrete gain for himself from the responses or (b) another Forge member citing any reason that I can understand.
Best,
Ron
On 10/21/2002 at 5:24pm, Sylus Thane wrote:
Design slumps
Actually Ron this thread would help a lot. I'm having trouble expressing myself lately, been sick a little too, but I guess the main idea would be this.
Here we all are sitting and designing but there is nothing really out there that helps when you hit your wall or know what to do when you hit a slump. That's why I put this thread in theory. It's a way of throwing the ideas around of what people do when they try and get out of their slumps. Everyone has a different way of doing, just like their design are all different. Maybe if there is something laying around saying what people do to get their motivation back, or just crazy things they do to get their brains going again it can help everyone out when they hit their individual and personal kind of slump. If you want to close it I'll understand, I just thought it might help everyone along with me.
Sylus
On 10/21/2002 at 6:02pm, greyorm wrote:
RE: Do you ever wonder what's the point?
In that case, Sylus, I suggest checking out the following thread for some inspiration of like sort: Why do my best ideas come when I'm busiest?
A number of the answers give advice akin to what you're looking for, even turned on their heads since the initial situation is different. You can check out my reply therein, as I believe it applies equally to being in a slump.
Forge Reference Links:
Topic 18359
On 10/21/2002 at 11:42pm, Kester Pelagius wrote:
Never say never...
Sylus Thane wrote: Here we all are sitting and designing but there is nothing really out there that helps when you hit your wall or know what to do when you hit a slump.
A bunch of articles pertaining to Game Design can be found here in the RPG.NET columns area.
Hope they are of some help to you.
Kind Regards.