Topic: Woohoo! Dreamwalker PDF available and a question
Started by: Demonspahn
Started on: 10/20/2002
Board: Publishing
On 10/20/2002 at 10:17am, Demonspahn wrote:
Woohoo! Dreamwalker PDF available and a question
Hi everyone,
After much help from Brett M. Bernstein at/of Politically Incorrect Games in getting the file size down, Dreamwalker is now available as a PDF!
I came up with a copyright question while writing the description for it at RPGnet mall, though. I wanted to put something to the effect of :
Play Dreamwalker as a stand alone game or use the systemless "dream structure" guidelines to enhance your current campaign with spiritual quests and dream-based adventures. A great unofficial add-on for games like Call of Cthulu, Werewolf: the Apocalypse, Shadowrun, Mage: the Ascension and many others that open the door to the realm of dreams and spirit.
Is that a blatant copyright violation?
Thanks,
Pete
On 10/20/2002 at 2:42pm, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: Woohoo! Dreamwalker PDF available and a question
Hi Peter,
I can't speak to the laws in question, but from the standpoint of a (single) fellow publisher, I think it needs some tweaking.
Perhaps a better route is to acknowledge those games in some textual way as influences or "overlaps." The very positive message here is that you like these games and appreciate their existence and influence on you.
However, if your sole intent is simply to rope in people who already play those games in a sort of blurb-association way, then I suggest that the chances of doing so are very small, and that you're better off leaving this text out entirely.
Best,
Ron
On 10/20/2002 at 5:29pm, Demonspahn wrote:
RE: Woohoo! Dreamwalker PDF available and a question
Ron Edwards wrote:
Perhaps a better route is to acknowledge those games in some textual way as influences or "overlaps."
<snipped>
However, if your sole intent is simply to rope in people who already play those games in a sort of blurb-association way,
Little bit of both really. In addition to enjoying those games, I know of two groups currently using Dreamwalker's dream system for their games, one for CoC, the other for WtA (which is where I got the idea). Both keep commenting on how perfect it fits the games, considering how vague the dream/spirit rules are in the books they have. I was hoping to relay that (adaptability) as a selling point by using examples but perhaps it is better if I leave the name dropping part out.
Thanks!
Pete
On 10/23/2002 at 7:06am, Gold Rush Games wrote:
Re: Woohoo! Dreamwalker PDF available and a question
Demonspahn wrote: I came up with a copyright question while writing the description for it at RPGnet mall, though. I wanted to put something to the effect of :
[snip]A great unofficial add-on for games like Call of Cthulu, Werewolf: the Apocalypse, Shadowrun, Mage: the Ascension and many others that open the door to the realm of dreams and spirit.
Is that a blatant copyright violation?
(I am not a lawyer, etc.)
Not a copyright issue, but a trademark one. Still, if you are simply using the names in text form, rather than the logos, to reference the game then it is arguably an issue of fair use.
For more information, see the PTO web site's "Basic Facts About Trademarks at http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/tac/doc/basic/
Cheers. :)
On 10/23/2002 at 7:13am, Gold Rush Games wrote:
RE: Woohoo! Dreamwalker PDF available and a question
Here's the specifica code I was referring to:
§43 (15 U.S.C. §1125) Section (C)(4) states:
"(4) The following shall not be actionable under this section:
(A) Fair use of a famous mark by another person in comparative commercial advertising or promotion to identify the competing goods or services of the owner of the famous mark."
(from http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/tac/tmlaw2.html )
On 10/23/2002 at 2:16pm, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: Woohoo! Dreamwalker PDF available and a question
Hi there,
Boy I'm glad #4 exists. It permits me to name-drop titles like autumn leaves all over my books. Without it, I'd be "cease and desisted" out of existence in days.
The purpose of such use is, I think, mutualistic. In the grand scheme of things, the movie The Ninth Gate is "bigger" than Sorcerer. However, mentioning/using it in the game (that is to say, referencing the main character in the text as a good example of one type of Sorcerer protagonist) does not diminish the movie as a product, and the only conceivable effect it could have would even be to influence someone to see it.
I like to encourage role-playing game publishers to think in these terms regarding one another's games. Back in the 1970s, for a brief while, new games advertised other games in the back. In my oldest copy of RuneQuest, games like Bunnies & Burrows, D&D, and Chivalry & Sorcery are all blurbed in an appreciative, peer-helpful way. I miss that, and I tried to resurrect the practice with Sorcerer - it seems to be a shared goal, as many games produced with Forge input apparently are following the practice (with or without direct influence by me).
Best,
Ron
On 10/23/2002 at 8:31pm, Gold Rush Games wrote:
RE: Woohoo! Dreamwalker PDF available and a question
Ron Edwards wrote:
Boy I'm glad #4 exists. It permits me to name-drop titles like autumn leaves all over my books. Without it, I'd be "cease and desisted" out of existence in days.
You still can be. Just because the law provides for such use of another party's mark does not mean that that other party cannot contest such usage. Defending oneself from lawsuits, even when one did nothing illegal, can be very costly...
The purpose of such use is, I think, mutualistic.
I'm not willing to speculate on the intention of a statute. I try to evaluate only the statute (and subsequent case law, if any). ;)
I like to encourage role-playing game publishers to think in these terms regarding one another's games.
Game publishers are better off relying on a good attorney than oon their own opinions, though. I understand what you're saying, I think, and I agree that it would be nice. But the reality is that publishing is a business, and it is a business that subsists on the sale of developed intellectual properties (IP).
IPs are more difficult to manage than physical properties in a lot of ways, and some of the "cease and decist" stuff you alluded to before is part of the necessary maneuvering by the IP owners in order to retain their own rights of ownership and thus their livelihood.
Back in the 1970s, for a brief while, new games advertised other games in the back. I miss that, and I tried to resurrect the practice with Sorcerer - it seems to be a shared goal, as many games produced with Forge input apparently are following the practice (with or without direct influence by me).
It still happens. Check out Castle Dunmere or Sidewinder: Wild West Adventure (by Citizen Games), and the Game Matering Secrets book (by Grey Ghost). Those and other books do promote other companies' games. That's a conscious business decision, however, and does not always have to do solely with good will. Sometimes, but not always. ;)