Anyone have any ideas on how to make Dragons different from the normal gold grubbing monsters they normally are in most sword and sorcery games? I would like Dragons to be ridable in Dawn of the Magi, but I don't want to rip off Pern novels in how it's done plus i still want them to be intimidating and hard!!!!!!! to beat. Anybody have any ideas on how this might be done?

Sylus

Yeah, but I don't want to release Ygg and have it sound like I ripped it from your game hehe.

No, ok you can have it. It's supposed to go into Ygg though.

In Ygg, dragons can take human form. Anyway, when they are young they pretty much wander and stuff. What's special about dragons is that they can hear the music of gold. It sings to them. To dragons this is a most special and seductive song. The older they get the harder it is to ignore it. It makes them want to hoard gold and just lie there half sleeping and listen to its singing.
The more time they spend in dragon form, the harder they have changing into human guise, and it is in dragon form they also hear the song the strongest. Eventually they all end up sleeping over their hoard of gold and jewels. Listening to the beautiful song only they can hear.

Maybe that can inspire you to dare something different for them?

A couple of random thoughts:

Dragon=Elemental Force. So dragons are the beasts that cause storms (for instance) like the Thunder Bird. Pushes the dragon into a more spiritual plane and not just some other sort of creature in the bestiary.

Dragon=Demon. This is the approach that I'm using for my Alyria game. They are physical creatures but they end up filling the role of ultimate diabolical evil. Again, not the sort of thing that you would ride.

I guess I'd suggest this. Start with the effect that you want (e.g. dragons ridden as steeds) and reason backwards to a reasonable cause.

Seth Ben-Ezra
Great Wolf

How about Dragons as a slave race? Men have exerted some kind of unwelcome control over them (so they can ride them, etc). The relationship of a dragon and its rider would be tense, and although respect could develop between the two, they are still technically enemies. Some dragons have broken the yoke and now hit men where it hurts the most--the wallet (treasury). SO that's why they hoard gold when the break free...because it hurts men. That's also why the eat virgins (end the family line) and destroy cities (economics, again). They know humans from centuries of enslavement and they're pissed about it.

How/why are they enslaved? Magic? Blackmail of some sort? Or maybe they're just raised that way, like how (supposedly) a Circus elephant won't try to break away from a stake in the ground because that's how it was raised.

If you don't use this, let me know. It's kinda cool.

Jake

I have a couple recommendations for different approaches.

1) make them truly unique. There are no Green Dragons which live in swamps. There is Rumplemist who hides in the ooze of the Swamp of Eternal Dankness and ambushes his prey like a giant alligator. And Fangwhistle the young rock dragon who is often seen perching on high inaccessible mountain peaks sunning himself with his head always pointed directly at the sun. The nearby civilization has thus affiliated Fangwhistle with their sun god and incorporated him into their pantheon. "Fangwhistles" are a popular drink in the local taverns in the region for their fiery kick and their alcohol content so high that the drink is used by fire eaters in their performance (an actual dragon from one of my settings).
Instead of making them a "race of creatures" and leaving it up to GMs and scenario books to create them as individuals...make them individuals right in your game.

2) An approach I recommend for all fantasy setting endeavors. Take the concept to its logical conclusion. For example. In D&D you have spells like "Wall of Stone" and "Dig". Who on earth would build a castle the old fashion way with laborious manpower...yet what D&D setting ever had a town with "Elrondrical and Sons: Magical Contractors"
Same thing for dragons. Integrate them into the setting in a way that makes sense. How about a city whose sewers feed into a vast pit in which is chained a captured dragon. The dragon is forced to use his flame breath to incinerate the sewage or else be drown in it (taken from the Sword and Flame novels). What is the draconic life cycle like. Do they go through a stage where they are small (monitor lizard-sized) fire breathers. Are they intellegent at this point? If so would they be willing to go to work in a boiler room heating water for a furnace in exchange for being kept well fed and protected from predators (like older dragons seeking to weed out future competition). Or go to work powering a potters kiln. What about intelligent flying dragons who'd be willing to hire out as aerial spotters looking for schools of fish for local fisherman in exchange for part of the catch. You get the idea. The old paradigm of incredibly intellegent dragons who live in isolation and refuse to interact with anyone is boring. Make them intelligent, but not in a cosmis/alien kind of way. Make them fully understandable and motivated by human motivations...then play around with where that would lead. How cool would it be to be a falconer launching a baby intelligent dragon from your wrist.

You wanna Anne Rice-ify 'em?

The way I always do that is to read the literature with the creature in it. Read through Beowulf and the Norse myths, maybe some Chinese and Japanese legends to round it all out. Think about what they mean in the RPG's they are in.

Pretend you are a Dragon reading them. What is bullshit and what did they hit on as truth?

They are known for hoarding treasure but why?

They are known for breathing fire...is that from some link to hell or bright tongue?

Find your tack and go with it.

Arrowflight has an interesting take on dragons in that you've got various types of dragon. I'm sure other fantasy settings have done this as well. I don't have any books in front of me, so I can't list specifics and the details might be fuzzy, but basically:

One race of dragon is just basically a ground-based flame-breathing lizard. Picture a Komodo dragon with really bad breath.

One race of dragon is commonly trained for riding, can't remember whether it breathes fire. Smarter than the previous type, but not sapient. There are also wild specimens, of course.

Then you've got your big, badass, intelligent, huge dragons. Ain't nobody training or riding these puppies. If you're lucky, you'll survive meeting one.

I thought it was a neat compromise - gives you several different creatures, each with a different role in the setting, all under the "here there be dragons" thematic umbrella. A similar approach might get you what you're looking for.
-e.

Sylus, from the original post it is not clear to me if you do or do not want dragons to hoard piles of treasure.

The easiest way to develop you own dragons, is to pick a path of development. Either look at the biology and logistics of a dragon inhabited world, or develop the myths and powers of the dragons and add in everything else as needed.

As far as suggestions go, here is what I'm working with. The dragons used to be an ancient race of powerful, magical beings who transformed themselves into dragons to create a sort of "suitable for battle against really bad ass things" functional form. Think pilot+mech, but in this case the pilot transforms into the mech. Over time they got "stuck" in this form, and various forms of "lesser" or "base" dragon-type creatures evolved. The original, great wyrms would be of limited number, and for the most part in physical hybernation (a fusion between their bodies and the earth - continuation of the morphing theme). Their minds however are free to mess with other creatures, including man. And of course when they do break from their hibernation, it is a significant event. The dragon riders you are looking for could simply be man and lesser dragon, that might or might not be influenced by the psyche of a greater wyrm.

Another thought, shooting off from what Jake was indicating, have dragons be another animal that is controled by man as beast of burden (albeit a very dangerous one at). With the twist that every once in awhile a dragon will reawaken to its full intelect. Needless to say, such beings would not be thrilled about the way they were treated (or perhaps they formed strong bonds, maybe they want to free their dumb cousins or maybe they are offended by them and try to exterminate them - quite a few options and many possible interactions and conflicts).

Here are some ideas i've had on dragons, some of which I've intended as a sort of starting idea for a setting. Hope these help in some way.

Dragons as the embodiment of magic and evil:
There are no 'born' dragons, but instead any time a person uses magic they risk gaining little draconic traits and becoming increasingly evil, as well as more powerful.

Dragons as defenders of good:
Dragons are a sort of multiversal/interdimensional grand paladin. Fighting for good and the innocent and such. Being dragons of course they may also be seen as monster, attacked and killed. Might not be able to defend themselves, after all the people are probably not evil just ignorant and afraid.

This is something I was discussing with someone yesterday-
Dragons as enslaved and twisted components. Such as the furnace for a steam train.

you want to change dragons?

the easiest way would be to go back to legends, myths and fairytales -- as Paka suggested -- but instead of looking at legends of dragons, look at legends of other animal helpers or mythical beasts. for example, for dragons as riding beasts, look at other riding beasts in fairytales or literature. what do they do? try basing dragons on Thor's goats, for example: you get a mount that you can slay and cook for your evening meal, which magically returns to life the next day (if you didn't lose any bones.)

or, in some fairytales, the hero's horse shows up to act as mount and advisor. transfer this to dragons, maybe mix in the D&D-like idea of a paladin's horse... maybe dragons in your world are fantastic mounts that no one can purchase, but only come to those pure in heart.

if you want to get really thorough, you could go to the library and study Stith Thompson's motif index, specifically in the sections on animals. take a couple motifs, apply them to dragons, then follow your ideas to their logical conclusion.

What if the Dragons were created (magically? through breeding experiments? whatever...) to be the ultimate war-steed? Perhaps there was an incredibly powerful army that was mounted upon them.

Something happened, though. The second generation of Dragons was highly intelligent. More intelligent than their masters.

Most of them escaped. Some are still in captivity. Perhaps they are lobotomized (surgically or magically).

I see some possibilities here. The free Dragons would typically hate their former captors. There could be interesting social pressures among Dragons. You could have them continuously grow with age and also become more intelligent, introspective, and reclusive as they grow older. Young dragons would often be hot-heads bent upon raiding settlements, freeing captive dragons, and hunting those they see as their former opressors. They'd probably travel in small groups. Older dragons would be more likely to be willing to talk to a non-dragon... though they'd hardly be safe. Younger dragons might also resent what they see as the complacency of their elders and might turn on them on occaision... in any case, there could be some tension...

~szilard

Sylus Thane wrote: Anyone have any ideas on how to make Dragons different from the normal gold grubbing monsters they normally are in most sword and sorcery games?

Now that is an amazing idea...
What if dragons were so highly empathic that they couldn't help but begin to take on the personality and values of people around them...to the point of it subverting their own personality...a kind of psychic slavery where the victim has been so thoroughly changed that they don't even realize they're enslaved.

The chaste and pure dragon isn't that way because he wants to be. He's that way because over time he was transformed by the community of devout monks who established a monastery nearby. He's been there so long that nary a scrap of his actual personality remains...

Right there you have a valid reason as to why dragons tend to be insociable and reclusive...because only by living in isolation can they remain/regain themselves.

What would a truly good hearted paladin think if he found out that his beloved dragon steed isn't really valorous and fiercely loyal, but has been empathically enslaved by him...