Topic: The Pool--hardcore
Started by: James V. West
Started on: 11/11/2002
Board: Random Order Creations
On 11/11/2002 at 4:02pm, James V. West wrote:
The Pool--hardcore
Let the beatings begin. Here is the hardcore version of The Pool. Most everything is restored to its original form, with some differences. I've read it over and over but I'm still known for missing obvious mistakes. If anyone finds something amiss, questionable, or otherwise problematic, please let me know.
The Pool
The Pool-no background, no links, printer-friendly
One thing I'm particularly curious about is the use of the term "GM dice". I put it in to help eliminate confusion. Did it work?
Thanks for your time and paitence. You people kick ass.
[edited to fix links]
On 11/11/2002 at 4:25pm, Bob McNamee wrote:
RE: The Pool--hardcore
Links in message aren't working...
they have an added http:/indie-rpgs.com...
On 11/11/2002 at 4:40pm, Bob McNamee wrote:
RE: The Pool--hardcore
I like the rewrite!
Placing the Trait dice as part of GM dice is nice...
you may want to change the sentence...
When you roll, the GM will provide 1-3 GM dice to add to the throw. If you can show an obvious connection between your intention and one of your character’s Traits, you can add Bonus dice to your roll if that Trait has a Bonus.
to read
.... and one of your character’s Traits, you can add extra GM Bonus dice (equal to the Trait's Bonus) to your roll.
On 11/11/2002 at 7:38pm, James V. West wrote:
RE: The Pool--hardcore
Hey Bob, thanks for pointing out the link problem. I was using html and obviously doing something wrong. I changed the links to bbcode and now they work swell.
And thanks for the suggestion. I'm thinking "...you can add extra GM dice (equal to your Trait's Bonus) to your roll." sounds about right.
On 11/11/2002 at 7:40pm, J. Backman wrote:
RE: The Pool--hardcore
Much, much clearer than the previous version. Also, the term 'GM dice' certainly clears things up a bit.
One suggestion though -- I think more examples (perhaps from other settings than the Damart example) would help to present the rules better for those who've never played something as free-form as The Pool before. Just IMO.
On 11/11/2002 at 7:54pm, James V. West wrote:
RE: The Pool--hardcore
Hey thanks, Pasi. More examples are forthcoming at some point. I was trying to keep this version really compact, but I have plans for additional pages of support using my own playtesting as well as all the great feedback I've got here at The Forge.
On 11/11/2002 at 9:14pm, Paganini wrote:
RE: The Pool--hardcore
Whee! Cool! I see my name! I see my name! :)
Overall impression: Very nice. Much clearer than before. The added explanations are very helpful. Of course, you know how I feel about "the rule of three" so, you can imagine my wince at "When you roll successfully, you have two options: add a die to your Pool, or make a Monologue of Victory." Alas. :)
Comments:
I don't think that bonus dice from Traits and gifted dice from the GM should both be included in "GM dice." For dice to roll, I'd have "Pool Dice," "Trait Dice," and "GM Dice." Dice that you get if you forgoe a MoV are "Reward Dice."
Also, you seemed to have removed the bit about the GM being able to stop a MoV. How come?
I'm assuming that spending dice to increase traits is done *during* a session, rather than in between sessions? (Since pools now regenerate to 9 in between sessions.) Actually, that could still be a problem. Any dice leftover at the end of a session can be spent to increase traits for free.
"If you chose to add a die to your Pool then the GM will narrate the outcome of the conflict any way he chooses. This could be good for your character, or it can be bad."
Last time I checked, the Pool was about "outcome resolution." In fact, this version of the game mentions it: "Dice are cast to determine the general outcome of conflicts."
To me, that says that a roll has the following possible results:
Failure: GM narrates bad stuff.
Success: MoV. Player narrates good stuff.
Success: Reward die. GM narrates good stuff.
Your list of Cool People (of which I am one... woohoo!) is on there twice. I'd suggest combing the two into one at the beginning, or one at the end.
On 11/12/2002 at 2:39am, James V. West wrote:
RE: The Pool--hardcore
Paganini wrote:
I don't think that bonus dice from Traits and gifted dice from the GM should both be included in "GM dice." For dice to roll, I'd have "Pool Dice," "Trait Dice," and "GM Dice." Dice that you get if you forgoe a MoV are "Reward Dice."
You get reward dice, bonus dice, and gift dice all from the GM so I figured why add terminology? What it boils down to is any dice you gamble comes from your Pool, all other dice are GM dice.
Also, you seemed to have removed the bit about the GM being able to stop a MoV. How come?
Oversight. I'm going to add some more back in regarding MOVs. See that's exactly why I post here.
I'm assuming that spending dice to increase traits is done *during* a session, rather than in between sessions? (Since pools now regenerate to 9 in between sessions.) Actually, that could still be a problem. Any dice leftover at the end of a session can be spent to increase traits for free.
Hmm. Good point. Of course, you could also argue that it would be rare to have enough dice left over to do squat anyway. I've never ran a session in which anyone came out with more than 4 or 5 dice left over. Enough to get a +2 at best. I'm not totally convinced that's a problem. If I said you can do this stuff only at the start of a session, you'd have to have ended up with a lot of dice leftover last time to get anything done--and then you'd have a tiny Pool.
I'm open to arguments on this.
"If you chose to add a die to your Pool then the GM will narrate the outcome of the conflict any way he chooses. This could be good for your character, or it can be bad."
Last time I checked, the Pool was about "outcome resolution." In fact, this version of the game mentions it: "Dice are cast to determine the general outcome of conflicts."
To me, that says that a roll has the following possible results:
Failure: GM narrates bad stuff.
Success: MoV. Player narrates good stuff.
Success: Reward die. GM narrates good stuff.
This is a part I need to clarify more. I didn't spend much time on it at all. What I should have said was that the outcome would still be positive (meaning it would at least lean toward what you wanted) if you took the die instead of the MOV.
Your list of Cool People (of which I am one... woohoo!) is on there twice. I'd suggest combing the two into one at the beginning, or one at the end.
Oops. Fixed it.
Thanks for the feedback. I made some adjustements already!
On 11/12/2002 at 3:17am, Paganini wrote:
RE: The Pool--hardcore
Hey James!
Often in the rush to make our voices heard, we often forget to offer prase. So... I may be a squeaky wheel, but let me say up front that your work on the Pool is rocking. These comments I'm making are pretty minor in comparison.
You get reward dice, bonus dice, and gift dice all from the GM so I figured why add terminology? What it boils down to is any dice you gamble comes from your Pool, all other dice are GM dice.
See, this seems counterintuitive to me. I'm the one that wrote the traits. I'm the one that thought they were important enough to sink dice in. So, how come the dice I get from them are *GM* dice? Not a big deal, but seems slightly confusing.
Hmm. Good point. Of course, you could also argue that it would be rare to have enough dice left over to do squat anyway. I've never ran a session in which anyone came out with more than 4 or 5 dice left over. Enough to get a +2 at best. I'm not totally convinced that's a problem. If I said you can do this stuff only at the start of a session, you'd have to have ended up with a lot of dice leftover last time to get anything done--and then you'd have a tiny Pool.
Agree Not sure if it's a problem or not. Did seem like a strange enough anomoly to mention, though.
On 11/12/2002 at 3:31am, Bob McNamee wrote:
RE: The Pool--hardcore
the scarce resouce that the players are managing then becomes just the Pool.
On 11/12/2002 at 10:39am, Mark Withers wrote:
RE: The Pool--hardcore
Well done - that's the best-written version yet!
Effortless retro cool!
Are you going to add descriptions of the many variants and add-ons that have come about? Like the rule of three, Monologues of Defeat and anti-pool?
In play, I like to make a distinction between the players pool and the 'common pool' or as you call them 'GM dice'. Having different coloured dice for each pool means you can easily work out how many of your dice you get back when after you roll. It just makes everything a hell of a lot smoother and more visual. It's definately worth including in the rules.
On 11/12/2002 at 5:19pm, xiombarg wrote:
RE: The Pool--hardcore
Much cleaner than last time. Excellent.
Not that I'm ever going to get my players to play it again without some serious effort, after our problems with an earlier draft...
On 11/14/2002 at 12:59am, James V. West wrote:
RE: The Pool--hardcore
Having different coloured dice for each pool means you can easily work out how many of your dice you get back when after you roll. It just makes everything a hell of a lot smoother and more visual.
That's what I think.
There are 3 different pools of dice: the GM's dice, the common pool, and each player's own pool. Only the players' pools are "real" pools, though, because they are defined and limited to what's actually there. They are a resource, whereas the other pools are just utilities. I wouldn't have need to distinguish at all except its eaiser if you can tell them all apart. Big load of dice lying in the middle, small piles in front of each player, and a pile in front of the GM that looks different enough for immediate recognition. That's all you need to know.
Much cleaner than last time. Excellent.
Not that I'm ever going to get my players to play it again without some serious effort, after our problems with an earlier draft...
Well, that's a damn good argument for getting it right the first time, huh? I'm slowly, painfully learning my lessons ;-)
I'm the one that wrote the traits. I'm the one that thought they were important enough to sink dice in. So, how come the dice I get from them are *GM* dice? Not a big deal, but seems slightly confusing.
I just called them that for clarity. You might also call them "boosters" or something. No big deal, they just need to be distinguished from the other dice is all.
On 11/14/2002 at 5:16pm, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: The Pool--hardcore
Hi James,
You wrote,
Only the players' pools are "real" pools, though, because they are defined and limited to what's actually there. They are a resource, whereas the other pools are just utilities.
I suggest that this text belongs in the game.
Best,
Ron
On 11/15/2002 at 9:49am, Mark Withers wrote:
RE: The Pool--hardcore
Ron Edwards wrote: Hi James,
You wrote,
Only the players' pools are "real" pools, though, because they are defined and limited to what's actually there. They are a resource, whereas the other pools are just utilities.
I suggest that this text belongs in the game.
Best,
Ron
Also, since the GM doesn't actually roll or use any dice, I suggest the dice that aren't in the players pools should be called 'the common pool', 'unviersal pool' or 'utility dice' in the text.
Linking them to the GM is perhaps a little misleading...
Mark.
On 11/16/2002 at 3:09am, James V. West wrote:
RE: The Pool--hardcore
Ron:
Yeah, I guess that wouldn't be a bad idea. Sort of put the whole "pool" concept into explicit terms.
Mark:
Well, I'd call it a common pool except the dice the GM gives you should look different from the dice you gamble. The dice you gamble really do come from a common pool of d6s before going into your own pool, but the GM dice don't. See?
I aplogize for being slow to respond, but this has been a week of 12 hour work days...PLUS Saturday work! Ugh. I'm zonkered out of my skull.
On 11/16/2002 at 2:27pm, Zoetrope10 wrote:
RE: The Pool--hardcore
Hey James
The latest rewrite is crisp and well structured.
I have some beatings:
1. By removing the need for a player-called roll to be tied to a trait, traits with nil bonus dice have little relevance. The rules are less elegant as a result.
2. Due to the 'in-game' connotations of the word 'conflict', the sentence 'Dice are cast to determine the general outcome of conflicts' is confusing. As I understand it, the only conflict is 'meta-game' -- dice are cast to see if you get some story telling power, not to determine the general outcome of conflicts occurring in the game world. The latter kinds of conflicts are determined by GM- or player-narration, not by casting dice; dice are cast only to determine who makes the narration. (Hell, this is hard to explain clearly)
3. Missing "Aha!'s". How does the GM decide how many dice to give? If I can show an obvious connection to more than one of my character's traits, can I add as many bonus dice to my roll? What happens if I run out of pool dice, in-game? Clarifying these kinds of questions will improve the game's newbie-friendliness.
regards, René
On 11/16/2002 at 8:34pm, James V. West wrote:
RE: The Pool--hardcore
Zoetrope10 wrote:
1. By removing the need for a player-called roll to be tied to a trait, traits with nil bonus dice have little relevance. The rules are less elegant as a result.
I don't really want to make a distinction between GM or player initiated rolls. For some reason it just mucks with me. However, I do see your point and its a point that's been made before. One solution I'm kicking around is requiring at least a +1 on every Trait. I think I had this in the rules before at some point but took it out. But this is still up in the air.
2. Due to the 'in-game' connotations of the word 'conflict', the sentence 'Dice are cast to determine the general outcome of conflicts' is confusing. As I understand it, the only conflict is 'meta-game' -- dice are cast to see if you get some story telling power, not to determine the general outcome of conflicts occurring in the game world. The latter kinds of conflicts are determined by GM- or player-narration, not by casting dice; dice are cast only to determine who makes the narration. (Hell, this is hard to explain clearly)
This is probably due to my very broad use of the word "conflict". I'll have to take a closer look at it and see if I can come up with a better way to describe it.
And yeah, it is hard to explain. I mean, sure, you *can* make a roll in The Pool for something as simple as trying to kick someone's ass, but its the follow through that's the kicker. And then there are times you just roll cause you want something particular to happen. No real conflict going on, just some gambling for story control (meta game conflict, yes). I find it very difficult to explain this concept in a way that everyone goes "Oh, ok. I get it.".
3. Missing "Aha!'s". How does the GM decide how many dice to give? If I can show an obvious connection to more than one of my character's traits, can I add as many bonus dice to my roll? What happens if I run out of pool dice, in-game? Clarifying these kinds of questions will improve the game's newbie-friendliness.
Thanks for pointing those "little things" out. I'll give the text another run through and see if I can answer these questions.
On 11/18/2002 at 10:42am, Mark Withers wrote:
RE: The Pool--hardcore
James V. West wrote:
Mark:
Well, I'd call it a common pool except the dice the GM gives you should look different from the dice you gamble. The dice you gamble really do come from a common pool of d6s before going into your own pool, but the GM dice don't. See?
Yeah, but do you really need to name the players 'spare' dice?
At the simplest level, you have some gambling dice, which are a finite resource that you have to manage, and some trait dice, which you just pick up from pile in the middle of the table. It's preferable, but not essential, to have the two sets of dice look different because it reduces handling times when working out how many dice you have to return to your pool.
I still don't know why the dice are called 'GM dice'.
The GM doesn't have to roll any dice, right?
On 11/19/2002 at 2:21am, James V. West wrote:
RE: The Pool--hardcore
Mark Withers wrote:
I still don't know why the dice are called 'GM dice'.
The GM doesn't have to roll any dice, right?
True, the GM never rolls. I called them GM dice because the GM is the one who keeps them and hands them out. Since its a total meta-game term I don't see any reason why it doesn't work. But I'm open to suggestions.