First off, let me introduce the kind of binding im talking about. Im not sure of the technical name for it, but its the homemade type were its just one large black binding down one edge that punches square holes through each of the pages. Its generally done just by lining up the pages and punching the holes through the left hand side, then affixing the plastic spine.

Anyway, my question.

Would you mind a role-play game bound in this way?

As long is it was not a 300 page manuscript like game and retained a shortish length.

My thoughts are, sure.. The binding is cost effective for the publisher, and works fine, its easy to flip the pages and find what your after. Although, they break easily and lack that air of profession that everyother bound book has.

But anyway, your thoughts?

Seamus

I definitely would not pay the same amount for a binding of this quality as I would for a well bound hardcover. That said, I own at least three games which I have bound in that fashion, using either a comb or spiral binding from Kinko's. I tend to do this when I'm printing out a small PDF game that isn't big enough or pretty enough to make it worth doing a full set of sewn signatures and hardcover binding by hand.

However, if you're planning on any significant volume, it's probably cheaper to go to a real professional printer and have a full binding done, because anything you would have saved on the actual binding you'll make up in vastly cheaper prices for the printing of your actual text block. I don't have any hard numbers for this, but try searching this forum and RPG.net for some of the threads on how much you have to invest in a typical print run. John Nephew of Atlas Games did one very nice analysis on RPG.net in this thread, for example.

-DaR

The Binding I think you are talking about is called "Velo Bind"
It's most commonly done for court documents and the like. It's a clean look, but it has one a major drawback: It won't lay flat when open.

I wouldn't suggest a Case-Bound book, unless you are gonna do 1000 or more. There's a lot of set-up to get them going, which makes them costly at smaller quantities.

A Velo Bind is pure labor, it don't get any easier with a higher quantity. Therefore, the price may drop some, but not as drastically as a Perfect-bind.

With a Perfect-Bind, once the machine is set-up and the glue is melted, all you gotta do is load the books and stand back. The machine will do all the work. The only drawback to a perfect-bound book is that the industry only gives it a handling life of a little over a year. I've still got ones that are over 10 years old, but "technically" they are only supposed to last a year.

S.Lonergan wrote:
Would you mind a role-play game bound in this way?

As long is it was not a 300 page manuscript like game and retained a shortish length.

My thoughts are, sure.. The binding is cost effective for the publisher, and works fine, its easy to flip the pages and find what your after. Although, they break easily and lack that air of profession that everyother bound book has.

But anyway, your thoughts?

S.Lonergan wrote: First off, let me introduce the kind of binding im talking about. Im not sure of the technical name for it, but its the homemade type were its just one large black binding down one edge that punches square holes through each of the pages. Its generally done just by lining up the pages and punching the holes through the left hand side, then affixing the plastic spine.

if you plan on doing small print runs with velo binding, you can get your own equipment and do the labor yourself, saving money. this website has some pretty low-cost velo binding equipment, as well as other binding equipment. the themal binding equipment also has some low-end low-cost equipment. I wonder what it's like...

addendum: I originally avoided this thread because I thought it was an out-of-place Sorcerer thread and thought it was going to get shut down...

I remember my first-edition Stalking the Night Fantastic, from Tri-Tac, had a comb binding. Usability was very low. The pages tear, the comb cracks, pages can fall out at the back...not good.

I've not seen much velo binding, but not laying flat is a serious deficiency.

One user's opinion.

I've never even thought about selling my games, let alone binding them. Im just wondering what you thought about them.

I didn't know about the not lying flat thing. That's a bitch.

thanks to everyone who replied

-- Seamus

Upon rereading your original post. Matt Snyder is correct. It does sound like Comb/GBC binding. If that's the case, it will lay flat.

Just wanna correct myself.

What about saddle stiched books? If you're not writing your 300 page masterpiece but keep it short, wouldn't this be a pretty good alternative?

Seamus, to answer your question: "Would I play it if it were bound in some 'homemade-rpg' way?" Yes. Proof: I sold a couple hundred copies of Orbit when it was less-than well edited AND both as comb-bound and (later) package in a 3-ring binder.

The binding doesn't matter that much and nor does the price. [Apologies for drifting off a bit here]. Just make good art that fits the flavor and *care* about your game, and there's a very good chance that people will respond positively to it.

Jeff

The binder was sweet. If one could create a binder that didn't result in torn pages falling out, I'd advocate that as the best idea yet.

Next to PDF. I do all my reading online if I can.

Mike

anyone know anything about the thermal binding technique I posted the link to? I was not able to determine if books bound this way will lie flat, or if it hold up better/worse than velo or comb binding.

As the only adhesives chemist on the board (that I know of -- it's an arcane field), I can talk about the thermal bound books. In one word.

Don't.

It could, theoretically, hold up just as well (or poorly) as perfect binding. But it won't. When a book is perfect bound by a printer, it is scored, the correct hotmelt adhesive for the paper stock is (theoretically) chosen, enough adhesive is (theoretically) applied for penetration, and sufficient time is (theoretically) given for the hot melt to reset before the book is handled. Note that none of these steps is done with the system you linked to. Standard perfect binding has a theoretical lifespan of approximately 1,000 spine creases. You'll be lucky to get 100 out of a product like that.

Also note that each of those (theoretically)'s above is a point at which I, personally, have seen mulitple failures by various print shops. I've only seen one bonding failure due to missed scoring in my nine years as an adhesives chemist -- just so you know.

Of course, I'm a traditionallist. Give me sewn signatures, a spine that uses an animal glue, and a vegtable-based casing-in paste and I'll be happiest -- as long as the biocide package is right...

I work at Kinkos and I have used the various types of bindings to make them into books. My opinions are as follows:

Velo binding: two plastic strips with plastic rivets, its an early type of binding that is still used by the legal profession due to their standards. Books are unable to lay flat--useless to referees when planning an adventure and also a pain to try to keep open enough to read.

Comb Binding: An earlier method of binding that allows the book to lay flat but not fold back on itself. The fingers won't totally close and a vigorous swing while holding may release the individual pages. Plastic grows brittle after awhile. Home binding units are able to be bought at $250 - $300 US and are good for short runs and Beta versions for playtesting.

Wire Binding: It is able to be laid flat and turned back on itself. The connections between the wire loops must be placed between last page and the back cover. Biggest disadvantage is the wire can get crushed or pulled out of place. It is hard-at best- to bend the wires back to a useful position.

Coil Binding: The newest method that places a continous plastic coil/spring in a series of holes. It can be opened flat and folded back on itself. The drawback is the thickness of paper to be bound is limited to roughly an inch, I prefer 1/2 to 5/8 ths at most. This is the method I use to replace the spine of perfect bound books I own and use. I prefer a 4:1 pitch (holes per inch) compared to a 5:1 pitch for durability.

Perfect Binding:The name is one of the biggest lies ever foisted on John Q. Public. I would reserve this for demonstration copies or books that will be used a few times and shelved/discarded after that (adventures, fiction, flavor suppliments.)

Other hints if you're going to use a copy shop. Use white paper and save costs. If you need heavier paper use 70# or something equivilent. Don't waste money on full color cardstock covers. If you must have full color cover, just use standard weight paper. Use a solid color vinyl cover on the back and a transparent plastic cover on the front. Don't bother laminating, the transparent plastic will have enough of a static charge to almost weld the first sheet of paper to the cover plastic.

It is often enough to use a strong black graphic and lettering (appropriate font and size) on a sheet of colored paper stock.

Have your artwork in solid black and white and avoid gray tones (change fonts instead to place emphasis) copiers often mottle gray tones--especially Microsoft Word's halftone. Try to give yourself at least a 3/4 and preferable a full inch inner margin to allow for binding and the bite it has to get in the paper to have a proper hold of the pages.

For What It's Worth,
Keith