Ok, no denying TROS is way super keen. Haven't had a chance to play it yet, but we've run a few mock combats and stuff. Very cool. Lots of fun to see one the combatants go down in some messy form or another.

But our style of play is a good bit more heroic than TROS allows. We're not talking D&D levels of heroic, but more heroic than TROS for sure. We also aren't too keen on cross referencing to hit tables every time there's a hit. The regular response to that, I've read, is that you only look up the tables a few times cause that's a few hits is all it takes to win a battle. But we don't want a few hits to end the battle so that means we'd be looking up to hit locations more often.

So I ask the experienced TROS gamers here: how to make TROS less lethal and a bit more heroic? We'd prefer a simple hit point variation (oh the shame! but it's true, valhalla help us) with GM arbitrated hit locations, if possible. It's just a style of play thing...

Any suggestions? Tips? I don't know the rules that well so I ask for guidance. Thanks.

ShaneNINE wrote: So I ask the experienced TROS gamers here: how to make TROS less lethal and a bit more heroic?

Hmmm. Getting hit is heroic?

What are you really after? Better ability to survive combat for characters? So that they fear combat less? If that's the case, give them more SAs. Or bump up their proficiencies if youwnat to make them more generically powerful.

Or do you want them actually able to take superhuman amounts of abuse? In that case, bump everyone's TO up by a few points.

However, having not played the game, I think that you are missing the fact that play tends to be very heroic in fact. I don't think that it needs any changes. In no case would I suggest going to any sort of Hit Point mechanic.

But then I think that just possibly you are trying to say somthing else entirely, but are not coming out with it well. Can you try to state the percieved problem better?

Mike

Mike Holmes wrote: But then I think that just possibly you are trying to say somthing else entirely, but are not coming out with it well. Can you try to state the percieved problem better?

Hmmm. Getting hit is heroic?

What are you really after? Better ability to survive combat for characters? So that they fear combat less? If that's the case, give them more SAs. Or bump up their proficiencies if you want to make them more generically powerful.

Or do you want them actually able to take superhuman amounts of abuse? In that case, bump everyone's TO up by a few points.

However, having not played the game, I think that you are missing the fact that play tends to be very heroic in fact. I don't think that it needs any changes. In no case would I suggest going to any sort of Hit Point mechanic.

There's a nice uber-simplified damage table in the QS rules. You could also modifiy the generic damage table.

And it ISN'T that lethal in play...

Jake

QS = quick start?

Where is it!? Didn't see it at the TROS page. I'd be really interested in quick start rules.

ShaneNINE wrote:
So I ask the experienced TROS gamers here: how to make TROS less lethal and a bit more heroic? We'd prefer a simple hit point variation (oh the shame! but it's true, valhalla help us) with GM arbitrated hit locations, if possible. It's just a style of play thing...

Any suggestions? Tips? I don't know the rules that well so I ask for guidance. Thanks.

toli wrote: RuneQuest distributes hit points among locations, meaning that you can diable a limb without killing a character.

Okay, let's talk about a hero in a fight. Does he get hit? No, he doesn't. Getting hit several times and taking little scratches (ala movie-style Conan) is easily mimicked by a high TO in TROS. Problem solved.

But the thing is that it really isn't a heroic fight. Think of movies or books or anything that displays "heroic combat." What we're really seeing is a mook phenomenon...in other words, the PCs should have a lot more dice than their crappy mook opponents. Thus the PCs rarely or never get hit and lots of mooks die. This works perfectly in practice, I assure you. Your experience with mock combats pits (I assume) more-or-less equal characters against each other. Try *any* RPG...one of them will be dead and/or dismembered when it's over...it'll just take a lot longer.

So use mooks with half as many dice as your PCs in their CP, with no SAs, and then save the "equal" or superior opponent for the finale, where it's okay to seriously wound a PC.

Good grief...I feel like I've been wailing on this poor dead horse for a year now...

As for the QS rules, they're in editing and playtesting right now, and should be available after thanksgiving.

Jake

Jake Norwood wrote: Good grief...I feel like I've been wailing on this poor dead horse for a year now...

Jake Norwood wrote:

So use mooks with half as many dice as your PCs in their CP, with no SAs, and then save the "equal" or superior opponent for the finale, where it's okay to seriously wound a PC.

Good grief...I feel like I've been wailing on this poor dead horse for a year now...

Jake

ShaneNINE wrote:

Jake Norwood wrote: Good grief...I feel like I've been wailing on this poor dead horse for a year now...

Well, thanks for giving the dead beast a few more whacks for my benefit. I certainly see your point (and Mike's, Sneaky's, and Toli's, too).

Maybe the points made in this thread should be summarized and put into a FAQ or a sticky note? I'm guessing a number of new players will ask you to beat the horse just a little more deader. x-)

That's an excellent idea for an essay for the web page. Any takers?

I'll add my two cents in here. Since encountering TRoS and the awesome SA mechanics, it's really flavored my view of many things. Lucien mentions the Spiderman comics, but where it really hit home for me was watching the Spiderman movie. The final battle between the Green Goblin and Spidey has Spiderman pushed past the limits of his endurance, beat all to hell, and basically lost.

Then GG has to gloat about he's going to hurt MJ, and Spidey comes back with new surges of energy and beats the Goblin to an exoskeletoned pulp. Am I the only one who thought they heard this little dialogue in the background?

Peter(Player of Spiderman): Seneschal, I think this warrants kicking in Spidey's Passion: Love for Mary Jane - 5 and Drive: Defend the Weak: 4.

Seneschal: Sounds good to me. What are you going to do?

Peter: I'm gonna kick his ass.

It doesn't get much more heroic than that.

Bingo, Lance.

Lucien, too. I always refer to the contest between Harrison Ford, and Mel Brooks for the title of "most beat up artist ever". The truely heroic do get all battered.

That said, this does argue for wounds that can be overcome. How about allowing SAs to be used to cancel out pain as well as adding to your CP? That seems to be what's going on with Spidey in that climactic scene.

Call it a "cinematic" rule.

Mike

Mike Holmes wrote: Bingo, Lance.

Lucien, too. I always refer to the contest between Harrison Ford, and Mel Brooks for the title of "most beat up artist ever". The truely heroic do get all battered.

That said, this does argue for wounds that can be overcome. How about allowing SAs to be used to cancel out pain as well as adding to your CP? That seems to be what's going on with Spidey in that climactic scene.

Call it a "cinematic" rule.

Mike

Jake Norwood wrote: Remember, though, that pain is represented in dice lost, and SAs in dice added...so it technically what it allready does.

Wolfen brings up a good point: the GM can introduce opportunity for SA use. In the spidie example, having the GG mention MJ is like the GM saying "I'm going to give you a chance to use your SAs".

You could have some kind of SA super charge -when the GM lets you- that lets you use *all* your SA's in a dangerous situation. Only permitted when you are in deep trouble of course.
Since every SA will be affected by your death(usually in a negative way), it is not that far fetched, and will make the PC's a helluvalot harder to kill.

Perhaps one could use the appropriate SAs +WP (or something like that) dice to roll vs pain. Sucess would mean eliminating the pain modifiers for some number of rounds....

toli

toli wrote: Perhaps one could use the appropriate SAs +WP (or something like that) dice to roll vs pain. Sucess would mean eliminating the pain modifiers for some number of rounds....

Mike Holmes wrote: How about allowing SAs to be used to cancel out pain as well as adding to your CP?

Bob Richter wrote: These actually amount to the same thing. In my way of thinking, pain and shock don't cut into your SAs.

I've actually literally had characters who were already dead (there was no chance of surviving their severe levels of blood-loss) win fights on SAs alone.

Mike Holmes wrote: How about allowing SAs to be used to cancel out pain as well as adding to your CP?

So what you're saying, Bob is that the minimum CP is equal to the currently applicable SAs? That's a cool alternative. But it does mean that it's only useful in a battle where you are giving nearly as good as you get. Because if I'm reduced to a low CP early, that's probably not going to keep me alive versus most uninjured opponents.

Examples (this is sorta simplified for effect)
Setup
Bob's Starting CP = 10
Applicable SAs = 5
Total starting CP = 15
First exchange, Bob takes 3 pain.
Second exchange Bob takes 5 more Pain
Third exchange Bob takes another 8 Pain

Using Bob's rules
After first injury CP is now = 12
After second injury CP is now = 7
After third injury CP is now = 5

Using Mike's rules
After first injury CP = 15
After second injury CP = 13
After third injury CP = 4

Which character is more likely to survive, and look cool doing it? What's really cool about what I'm proposing is that it can make for the nifty reversal. Let's say that the SAs don't kick in until after the second injury.

Using Bob's rules
After first injury CP is now = 7
After second injury CP is now = 5
After third injury CP is now = 5

Using Mike's rules
After first injury CP = 7
After second injury CP = 10
After third injury CP = 4

This also shows how my version also allows for further detriment after a reversal (in this case, the example says that the character was hit hard anyhow, and the result shows it).

The neatest would be usig the rolling method Toli mentoned. In that case, your SAs could keep you out of the fire indefinitely. Theoretically. They could also fail you at some point.

Mike

One thing that seems (in my opinion) to be somewhat neglected in this thread is the "Intellectual Hero". Lance did nail it with his SpiderMan example, but lets look at other examples.

Someone (sorry, don't remember who) mentioned Indiana Jones. While Indy does often get the living crap beat out of him, he often prevails due to his intellect rather than his physical attributes or his beliefs (SAs). Of course, this sort of heroism is something that can't easily be played out in the game unless the player is clever. But, how many times have you been playing a game (of any sort) and had a clever idea that got shot down by the GM? So, it follows that the GM also has a responsiblity to be open to "Intellectual Heroism" from his players. While most people feel that the GM must remain neutral in their stance, I feel that the GM needs to want his players to succeed.

So, I guess this post boils down to a question: Is it possible to reflect "Intellectual Heroism" in game mechanics and, if so, how should it be done? Or perhaps a broader question is in order: Do players deserve mechanics that create heroes, or should the heroes be created through playing a character in a heroic way? In other words, Heroic gameplay is the reward for playing a character in a manner befitting a hero and reflecting the qualities that make a hero into... a Hero?

Ok, now I'm getting into philosophy rather than gaming.... I'll quit while I'm ahead! :-D

Brandon