I'm currently stuck on a problem with my free-form magic system. I want something that doesn't depend on spell lists or any other classification system for magic as it really doesn't make sense in context of the game world, but OTOH, I don't want something too easily abused by the power-hungry gamer.

I'm currently using an Attribute + Skill system. The default method of determining successful spell casting is to compare a character's Will + Concentration rating to a preset difficulty value as assigned by the GM. If the character's Will + Concentration score equals or exceeds the difficulty value set by the GM, then the spell is successful.

Note that a character may spend experience points to increase their chances of succeeding at any given action.

This is both simple and very unrestrictive - maybe too unrestrictive. Theoretically, a character could create *any* spell effect if they succeed at the test. What I'm stuck on is creating some kind of power cap without having to resort to spell lists, schools of magic, etc.

Any suggestions?

Step One is to consider whether you really care if players "abuse" the magic system or not. Maybe the game is stronger if magicians are scary powerful like Merlin. Step Two is to ask if you aren't better off just playing Ars Magica, which has already thought through the issue. Heck, it uses Attribute+Skill. Otherwise...

The following self-promoting link may actually offer some ideas: http://www.enter.net/~whim/everway/mft.htm.

Further thoughts.

One thing you want to bring into your system is degrees of success. Another is guidelines for the GM in determining the difficulty number.

Consider enforcing the law of contagion and the law of similarity. (Law of Contagion = synechdoche = your basic lock of hair or fingernail clippings of the target etc. Law of Similarity = metaphor = dance like the rain to make it rain, jog widdershins to undo an unwanted condition etc.) Let your players have their freeform outputs, at the cost of coming up with striking freeform inputs. The system becomes, Your creativity impresses me This Much, so your spell accomplishes This Much.

Best,


Jim

On 2001-08-08 21:50, Supplanter wrote:

>Step One is to consider whether you really care if players "abuse" the magic system or not.<

I do care if the system is abused. While I want powerful effects to be obtainable, I do want them to be limitless in scope (no blowing up the whole damn world).

>Maybe the game is stronger if magicians are scary powerful like Merlin.<

More along the lines of Dr. Strange or Adam Warlock, but yes, the game is stronger if the magicians are scary powerful :smile:

>Step Two is to ask if you aren't better off just playing Ars Magica, which has already thought through the issue. Heck, it uses Attribute+Skill. Otherwise...<

Nope, Ars Magica won't quite cut it for what I'm doing (think Sandmanesque fantasy... dreams).

>Your creativity impresses me This Much, so your spell accomplishes This Much.<

Very much what I'm aiming for, and actually, I think a sliding difficulty level will effect this nicely.

I appreciate the input.

Thanks,

James Hargrove

Interesting problem. I ran into something similar when I tried to use the Mage: the Ascension setting and the Over the Edge rules. I say similar because the problem wasn't "how do I limit this" (I used varring difficulty levels, and it worked quite well), but that the players had no idea what to do with their powers when the system did not give them suggestions!

"What can I do with magick?" the player asked me.
"Anything," I replied, "though really big things may be beyond your power or knowledge."
"Yeah, I get that, but what can I do?"

Y'see, they were so used to spell-list systems that the freeform system was too ambiguous for them. Not having examples of what was possible built into the rules left them with no handle to grasp the system with.

You may see this in your game.

You may also want to limit the number of effects that can be kept going simultaneously. You can set this at a flat number (no more simultaneous effects than your Will score, frex), or you may want to give players an "effect pool" which they can divide between effects. This leads to ideas like investing points from the effect pool into tools (like Morpheus' ruby or Sauron's ring).

Lon

This may be help, it may not be but...

You may wish to check out the Dragonlance Fifth Age SAGA game from TSR.

I haven't read it myself (I do have SAGA Marvel) but did chat with the creator of the game and his description of the magic system is intriging. He described is as having pull-down menus and such, using a computer metaphore I suppose, to facilitate creating spells on the fly.

You may not like it, but since it is a discontinued product you may find it cheap and it may give you ideas.

Or maybe this brief description is idea enough.

>You may also want to limit the number of effects that can be kept going simultaneously.<

That's a *really* good idea. I hadn't even given thought about taking that approach, but as it happens it would be very appropriate to the setting. Your input is much appreciated.

Gracias,
James Hargrove

>You may wish to check out the Dragonlance Fifth Age SAGA game from TSR.<

I used to own it, and it wasn't half bad, but not really what I'm looking for.

I think that the best example of what I'm shooting for can be found in "Legendary Lives" by Marquee Press (save the division of magic into different realms of power).

Think of the reality warping in The Matrix, Sandman, and Dreamscape... that's more what I'm looking at.

James Hargrove

James, have you seen Nobilis?

Best,


Jim

>James, have you seen Nobilis?<

Yep. I'm trying to keep my system simple enough for first time players to understand :smile:

James Hargrove

James, I know this is kind of an obscure reference, but you might check out the "Magic systems" discussion from the old Sorcerer mailing list. You can find it on the Development page at the Sorcerer website, at http://www.sorcerer-rpg.com. Like all mailing list archives, it rambles around, but toward the end I go into a serious proposal for RPG magic systems.

No obligation, but if you decide to look at it, let me know what you think.

Best,
Ron

I think that one of the functions of spell lists and the like was to "peg" a set of expectations, understandings, for the players. I experienced exactly the difficulty described with Mage, it was tough to get your head around thinking how/what to do. I spent a lot of time poring over the rotes list to get an idea of how these things had been constructed. Eventually I think our gaming group build upa tacilty recognised body of precedent which heavily informed our decisions, but by then I had internalised it so much it was nearly second nature.

I guess, in the end, that Is ee schools and the like not so much as limiting but prompting; I don't think they should be exploited for balance purposes. What I liked about Nobilis and In Nomine was the use of words, just terms, that in themselves imply much but determine little. Using these as touchpoints in an otherwise nebulous system, I think, works wuite well, and I think it is a technique exploited by HeroWars to apply to all contests, not just magical ones.

Ron,

Thanks for the pointers... there are some very good ideas in there. I think I'll use the 'check-list' after I get my system hammered out. Again, thanks.

James Hargrove

On 2001-08-09 00:47, Ron Edwards wrote:
James, I know this is kind of an obscure reference, but you might check out the "Magic systems" discussion from the old Sorcerer mailing list. You can find it on the Development page at the Sorcerer website, at http://www.sorcerer-rpg.com. Like all mailing list archives, it rambles around, but toward the end I go into a serious proposal for RPG magic systems.

No obligation, but if you decide to look at it, let me know what you think.

Best,
Ron

Sorry. I wish I could explain fully, but spell lists are just not an option in any way, shape, or form. Thanks for the input, though.

James Hargrove

The Penguin (IIRC) paperback games Maelstrom used probability as a power cap sorta thing. There were 5 layers of weirdness, from quite reasonable "lucky" events, through more unlikely and remarkable coincidences to finally acts which were actually impossible. Magicians just basically pitched an outcome to the GM, got a probability estimate back and rolled off. It keeps magic quite low key, for good or ill, in that it is not flash-bang stuff.

Hey, heres a thought to throw out - I've always wanted to build a magic system based on the one employed by CJ Cherryh in Rusalka. The idea was that magicians just wished for things, and the world arranged for them to come true. However, this means that unintended consequences are implicit in every magical act, and magicians keep tomes not to remember spells or anything, but to log their wishes and worry about what might come back to haunt them. The ones who live for very long are prone to bitter reminiscense about when they were young and stupid and flinging it all over the place...

I love the internal dynamic of this principle, but I've never been able to conceive an effective way of expressing it in game terms.

How about: "Magic ALWAYS has a cost. The greater the magic, the greater the cost."

The cost need not always be paid by the mage. It may be paid deliberately, or the mage may wait for circumstances to impose the cost on him.

I use this idea as the central principle in a game I'm working on. It proceeds from the premise that magic use is always a non-trivial act.

Best,

Blake

How about Time? or Power availability.
Adding Limiters is about adding reasons for the mage not to do something? In my mind there are several ways to make something, anything not just magic, harder to do..
1) Just make it harder, ie raise difficulty.
2) Artificial limits.. certain things just aren't possible, ie spell lists, groups, divisions.
3) Other costs... money, mana, items.
4) Time. If an effect takes too long to do, it won't be feasible. Small effects cast quickly.
5) Related to 3, power availability. If a mage must 'gather power' to cast, he has a finite amount of it, sorta like mana.

Falkenstein has a neat system for this. Where the mage must draw power to cast his spell. This drawing takes time usually proportionate to the size of the spell. And as that power is finite in an area, he can't cast alot of magic all at once.

Also, adding additional time restraints to spells will change the 'flavor' of magic. A world where magic takes a long time to cast SHOULD encourage players to plan ahead and move slower.

Torrent
.. ideas offered..

Have you ruled out treating magic as a "thou" rather than an "it"? This,
I think, is the essence of Sorcerer's magic system. And if one wanted
a lighter theme replace the *demons* with *spirits*, or whatever.
Sorcerer certainly has as much variety as any more traditional
system, but instead of keeping track of your spell lists and magic points,
you now keep track of your relationships with the beings that give
you power.

So, in such a system, when a player asks, "What can I do?", simply
ask, "What spirits do you know?" In this, the power level of magic,
its costs, and so forth, can blend into a general experience with the
personalities of the spirits, the price they demand, and the unknown
rules of the otherworld.

Any thoughts?

Jeffrey Straszheim

P.S. I've met "immersion" type players who didn't like free-form magic
because they, as a player, couldn't understand the powers and limitations
of magic the way they thought their character could. I don't know, but
I expect that a "thou" type magic system would address their concerns.