All this question of gamer pride when revealing your hobby to non-gamers has brought up a lot of "it's all the fundies falt" comments, and I'm curious about something.


So, to those gamers who happen to be christian:

Do you feel any apprehension about telling gamers you don't know very well your religious orientation (because of fear of snap judgments)?

If so, is this equivalent to any apprehension you might feel about telling other christians you don't know very well that you game (if you feel that way at all)?

Do you ever feel like you're "sitting on the fence", so to speak, trying to dodge rocks being flung from both sides, but that if you get off the fence one side is gonna bust down the fence and eat the other?


I do not intend this to be a religious discussion or judgement.
I'm just wondering if the perceived social stigma, a subsequent behavior response, is two-way - maybe even self perpetuating.
700 Club vs Gamers = Hatfields vs McCoys?

Cruciel,

Most definitely. It's funny, because I couldn't really talk about my gaming growing up, with the very religious, very conservative, very fearful-of-the-devil parents.

Now, I live in Seattle, and am a very liberal, very ecumenical, kinda-maybe-Christian, and I wouldn't tell a soul, much less a gamer. I normally avoid talking about RPG.net's forums, but you'll get your ass verbally stoned there if you mention you believe in a god. The hatred by a small group of gamers of Christians makes the conservative Christian anti-gamer stance stronger, to be certain. Stupid pranks like White Wolf's fake Demon: the Fallen (a game that, from what I've read, actually addresses religion semi-intelligently) site make that stance stronger.

If that group of gamers would show a bit of tolerance, I guarantee the Christian-gamer stigma would fade.

Actually, I wrote an article for Nathan's Misty Cages--er, Mystic Ages Online--some time ago, And I'm a Gamer (which, I notice, is very relevant to a lot of the current threads here, particularly to that one that mentions the overweight men dressed as Sailor Moon at the conventions). I actually get more frequent and worse flack from anti-Christian gamers than I do from anti-gaming Christians, which is particularly funny, since I've written a lot more about why Christians should become gamers than I have about why gamers should become Christians.

I have no fear of telling Christians I'm a gamer; that's because there few Christians whose ability at theological discourse matches my own would be so foolish as to take such an indefensible position. A good friend and Baptist pastor just this past year, in an e-mail discussion with me, said he understood what I was saying and was going to make an effort to positively support and defend gamers--because he always gets really annoyed when churchgoers try to dictate what kind of music he should listen to in the privacy of his own home and car, and it's clearly the same sort of issue.

As to telling gamers I'm a Christian, that's sort of a moot topic. They generally know it. I've got two undergraduate degrees in Biblical studies, and generally have a couple of Bibles out where I can grab them when I'm working on something (one of these in Greek). There's usually a guitar around, and nearly all the music I've ever written is conspicuously Christian, so if the question comes up they're likely to hear it in the songs. I suppose that for me being Christian is a bit like being a centaur. I don't really have to mention it for people to be aware of it. Like Clinton (although perhaps for different reasons) I don't generally bring it up. But you'll know if someone is a conservative or a liberal, if they really are strongly one or the other, after a very few conversations with them, because they're opinions about everything will reflect that even if they aren't pushy about it. Similarly, there are a lot of people (and I think I'm one) of whom you'll discover they're Christian by what they say when they aren't talking about their faith, because everything in life is connected to what you believe.

But I get annoyed by two kinds of Christians:
Those who have to condemn everything that doesn't fit their view perfectly.
Those who have to snipe at those who condemn everything that doesn't fit their view perfectly.

I try not to be either of those. I understand that some people only know what they've been told, and that they may have been told something that isn't true by someone they trust. Most of these will take correction. The rest will eventually realize that they're overmatched and wasting their time arguing with me about it.

I'm reminded of a guy who wrote to me all up in arms about my involvement in the Satanic connections of D&D. I noticed that his sig file identified him as a martial arts instructor. I wrote back and pointed out that I had heard ever objection he made about role playing games leveled at martial arts. He graciously wrote back to say, "touche", and admitted that he had leapt to invalid conclusions on what he had heard.

But the gamers who hate Christians never give up, never give an inch. They will admit that they have no answer to anything I say, and still insist that Christians are horrible people and I shouldn't be a Christian if I'm a gamer.

And I try to stay out of RPGnet shooting matches, too.

--M. J. Young

I'm trying to think of one reason why Christians wouldn't like roleplaying... and failing. What's this all about? It never occured to me that someone's religious persuasion has anything to do wiht his attitude towards RPGs.

And uhm, what does "700 Club vs Gamers = Hatfields vs McCoys?" mean? (As in, what is the '700 Club', and who are Hatfield and McCoy?)

Victor Gijsbers wrote: I'm trying to think of one reason why Christians wouldn't like roleplaying... and failing. What's this all about? It never occured to me that someone's religious persuasion has anything to do wiht his attitude towards RPGs.

Ignoring thoth's toss-off comment, there's many reasons why a Christian - especially a fundamentalist Christian - wouldn't like RPGs.

1) The RPG most well-known is Dungeons and Dragons, which contains numerous references to:
- killing and murder
- dragons, a symbol of Satan in Revelations
- magic, which is forbidden by the Bible
If D&D is all a Christian knows, then even if they have a clear understanding of what it's about, they might still call it Satanic. (Side note: there was a year in my childhood in which I was allowed to play any RPG except D&D. Of course, I played Warhammer FRP all year and summoned demons and whatnot.)

2) RPG's involve people placing themselves in a fictional reality. If people that have a hard time separating reality and fantasy were to play a lot of role-playing games, even I think you would have a problem. (The children of fundamentalist Christians fall into this category, by the way. Think about it: the idea of a fantastic world shoved on you from day one, with angels and demons, and an eternal war - and then add a huge dose of guilt and shame for doing something your parents think is evil.)

Christians are right to be worried about RPGs, in my opinion. I think it's taken too far, and not actually considered as a topic for discussion in most hard-core Christian churches, which is a shame. Still, they have very valid points: RPG's will expose their children to occult ideas, and will give them an escape from the carefully constructed reality they live in.

Do you feel any apprehension about telling gamers you don't know very well your religious orientation (because of fear of snap judgments)?

If so, is this equivalent to any apprehension you might feel about telling other christians you don't know very well that you game (if you feel that way at all)?

Do you ever feel like you're "sitting on the fence", so to speak, trying to dodge rocks being flung from both sides, but that if you get off the fence one side is gonna bust down the fence and eat the other?

I find it interesting to observe the amount of effort that goes into putting down games, books, movies, and videogames, as opposed to focusing on something more fundamental, such as the basic 10 commandments. I'd say a lot more adultery goes on than, say, demon summoning due to rpgs in most Christian communities.

I agree with Clinton that parents have a right to be concerned about kids' input, but I think it would probably be better spent time teaching your children how to filter and identify for themselves what is good/bad values than trying to cloister them away from any negative influences. It's a real world out there, and you're better off teaching them to deal with it for themselves, since you can't always be there to guide them.

Of course, rpgs also tend to have several similarities to religious activity:
1) Group of folks gathering for several hours
2) Regular attendance is necessary
3) Dealing with stuff that cannot be seen(must either be taken on faith or imagination/visualization)

One can easily see how gaming might be taken as competition.

Chris

Victor,

The 700 Club is a conservative Christian television talk show, known for taking extreme stances. The Hatfields and the McCoys were a pair of rural clans in late 19th/early 20th century Kentucky, famous for a multi-generational blood fued.

In general:

I've noticed the anti-Christian bias among both non-Christian gamers and Pagans, and it seems to have the same roots in both. The experience non-X gamers and Pagans have with Christianity is usually limited to a) the childhood experiences that led them to be non-Christian when they grew up and b) the vocal and intolerant minority which publicly bitches about us.

For the most part, it's been my experience that once these two groups actually have experience with non-pushy and/or non-fundamentalist (the two are actually not synonymous) Christians, they lighten up.

Lon

First of, thanks for the answers (I found them quite illuminating).

Now, to kinda open up the question to non-christians and let you know where I was going with this inquiry:

With all the talk of trying to guide gaming into a more accepted hobby, I think gamers face an even bigger emotional problem with their hobby than pride (with opinions apparently varying on how much this matters).

That other problem seems to their own hate and fear. 77% of the US population is christian (53% protestant, 24% catholic - if my figures are current). However, rpg's do not seem to cater to this group's interests - in fact I suggest that the games and the players tend to directly oppose it.

How would the patrons of your local game store react to a 'Christian Games' section in their store... What if 'Left Behind: The Forgiveness' - roleplaying in a dark world about what it mean to be human, complete with 1-10 Penance bar (for those of you unfamiliar with the reference, it's a propular christian novel about the people left on earth post-revelation), was sitting right next to 'White Wolf: The Cheesey Title'? Would they ridicule the store owner for cavorting with the 'devil'? Who they avoid the store entirely on 'moral' grounds?

I'm not a christian, but I can think of a lot of premises that might be acceptable and enjoyable to gamers who wanted to explore their religion, or at least didn't want to violate it.

My point being I think your common gamer may be too prejudice of the majority population to accept the needs and interests of that population into their little club.

I'm not saying that a lot of gamers may not have a justification for their hate or fear...but someone has to choose to stop the fight. Not to severe anyone from their moral high ground, but I don't think its going to be the gamers who act first - after all the fundamentalists are on the defensive for picking on a minority.

I'm not trying to claim superiority, I dare say I'm exactly the kind of gamer I'm criticizing, just food for thought.

PS: the fued of the Hatfields and McCoys is a sort of american legend - the two families fueded to the point of an seemly endless cycle of vengance (you did this so I'm gonna get ya, and them the other side avenges the vengance, and so on)

cruciel wrote: How would the patrons of your local game store react to a 'Christian Games' section in their store... What if 'Left Behind: The Forgiveness' - roleplaying in a dark world about what it mean to be human, complete with 1-10 Penance bar (for those of you unfamiliar with the reference, it's a propular christian novel about the people left on earth post-revelation), was sitting right next to 'White Wolf: The Cheesey Title'? Would they ridicule the store owner for cavorting with the 'devil'? Who they avoid the store entirely on 'moral' grounds?

cruciel wrote: My point being I think your common gamer may be too prejudice of the majority population to accept the needs and interests of that population into their little club.

thoth wrote:
I could see someone objecting to Xn games getting their own section. If you're going to give Xn RPGs their own shelf, wouldn't it only be fair to give Post-Apoc RPGs their own, etc. Yeah, PA and Xn are apples and oranges, but how many RPGs actively take a stance on a real world religion, promoting one? What makes Xn RPGs worthy of getting their own section?

I wear my gaming on my sleeve, people know I game. This tends to make the fact that those that know me--who might be concerned with gaming start rethinking things. On the other hand my brother in law (married to my sister) is a gamer, but his mother tells my nephew that "RPG's are evil" he all of 5 has an opinion (well not all of them are!), so I do understand.

I do not /tend/ to where my Christianity on my sleeve, its not something that can come up in conversation as readily as gaming (but it does) as my place of employment sells a few games.

I'm also a game-writer, having a FRPG in the clean up playtest stage, and a superhero one Hearts and Souls in the initial playtest stage-

Are my gamess "Christian" well depends on what you mean, they being games have no beliefs. However neither one containts things implicitly counter to my beliefs (My FRPG has heroic spell casters--and thats ok, it is /fantasy/ here--and I like magic in fantasy. Does it encourage real world magic use? No, nor does it encourage real world worship of Fantasy Dieties, Killing Myrks or Trolls or other fantasy critters--after all real world and fantasy are for the most part antonymical)

Cruciel,

This is something of an odd discussion for me, since one of the best GMs I know, and a few of the more creative players, have been devoted Christians. Anyway:

There have been Christian-themed games. I recall one called (I think, memory may be fuzzy here) Lightraiders, about Christian heroes fighting the forces of Hell in a quasi-historical fantasy setting.

Then there's Pendragon, whose main setting is firmly fixed in the very Christian Mallory-type Aruthurian legends. Fantasy Wargaming, an old game from the UK, assumed a primarily Christian, quasi-historical setting. Also look at Halo, a free RPG on the web.

That's four I can think of off the top of my head. Two are still in publication.

Now look at other games: There's no reason Sorcerer, Champions, or even D&D couldn't have Christian settings and themes.

I think the question isn't "why aren't there Christian games on the shelves," but rather "why aren't there more Christian games" or "why aren't the existing games with Christian themes advertising them more?"

To what extent does the perception that gamers aren't Christians prevent this marketing, and to what extent does a Christians aren't cool attitude make such marketing backfire?

Lon

P.S.
I forgot to mention Paladin, which would do a "Christians vs. Evil" setting quite well.

cruciel wrote: 77% of the US population is christian (53% protestant, 24% catholic - if my figures are current). However, rpg's do not seem to cater to this group's interests - in fact I suggest that the games and the players tend to directly oppose it.

Hi M.J.,

Nicely stated.

Here's a minor point - above, cruciel refers to "all the talk of trying to guide gaming into a more accepted hobby ..."

I'd like to speak up to throw cold water on that statement. It does not represent any particular effort at the Forge, most especially not my li'l family of threads which includes this one.

Best,
Ron

Uncle Dark wrote:
Now look at other games: There's no reason Sorcerer, Champions, or even D&D couldn't have Christian settings and themes.
...
I forgot to mention Paladin, which would do a "Christians vs. Evil" setting quite well.

M. J. Young wrote:
Gamers and Christians are not enemies; it's just that the fringes of any group are always a bit frayed around the edges.

Ron Edwards wrote:
Here's a minor point - above, cruciel refers to "all the talk of trying to guide gaming into a more accepted hobby ..."

I'd like to speak up to throw cold water on that statement. It does not represent any particular effort at the Forge, most especially not my li'l family of threads which includes this one.

Well, the question has been asked about how RPGamers and their feelings towards a Xn RPG, so i'm going to ask a possible flip-flop of that. What would Xn think of an RPG that included Xnity as a religion but treated it as any other religion in the game? Would their be any objections to a game that treats Xnity in the same manner as the Greco-Roman or Norse faiths are?
What if Xnity were treated in a fashion similar to Voodoo?
What if an RPG used other currently active religions such Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc?

Would a Xn gamer avoid a store that sold RPGs that used Xnity in such a manner? What about if it used one of the other active religions?

Hi everyone,

I know I'm just adding to the pile on (which is discouraged here), but I feel compelled to reiterate the idea that "Christian" means lots of things to people who call themselves Christians, while people who don't consider themselves Christians usually boil it down to a singular. (And usually an annoying singular at that.)

I'll quickly point out that C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. wrote two of the 20th centuries classic works of fantasy fiction -- full of magic, monsters and violence -- and both from a specifically Christian point of view.

Non-Christians who loved the books who find out the depth of the faith of these writers seems annoyed at first. They often make peace with the works, recognizing them as great writing and suggesting that the faith of the writers don't really matter after all. I think this misses the boat completely: The books work because the faith of their writers inspired them. If the non-Christian reader thinks the faith doesn't matter, it might well be because the non-Christian has a somewhat limited view of what Christianity is. (A singular, in other words, that doesn't allow for the wide spectrum of what Christianity allows.)

I bring this all up, because RPGs are exactly the same. One can make a "Mercantile & Murder" gaming session, or one can have a session full of faith (of any religion). That's up to the game chosen and the players.

I'd be happy to tell anyone in my Catholic parish about my love of this hobby. Christianity thrives in part because of absolute love of storytelling and astounding events. (cf. Lewis and Tolkien). Most folks I've ever told these games about are always absolutely captivated by them.

Only once, when the Big Brother program in Chicago hooked me up with a boy who's mom was against RPGs was there a problem. We parted ways. But I never assumed it was a "Christian" issue, but that woman's particular church.

Christopher

PS My apologies to Jake for writing long paragraphs that "ramble on and on forever" ; )

Christopher Kubasik wrote:
I know I'm just adding to the pile on (which is discouraged here), but I feel compelled to reiterate the idea that "Christian" means lots of things to people who call themselves Christians, while people who don't consider themselves Christians usually boil it down to a singular. (And usually an annoying singular at that.)

Amos Barrows, a.k.a. thoth, wrote: What would Xn think of an RPG that included Xnity as a religion but treated it as any other religion in the game? Would their be any objections to a game that treats Xnity in the same manner as the Greco-Roman or Norse faiths are?
What if Xnity were treated in a fashion similar to Voodoo?
What if an RPG used other currently active religions such Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc?

Would a Xn gamer avoid a store that sold RPGs that used Xnity in such a manner? What about if it used one of the other active religions?

Hi M.J.,

I am very glad that you are here participating at the Forge, especially now.

This post has no other content.

Best,
Ron

In his article, M.J. wrote: And that's what I don't like about most "Christian" things: they are too tied to "my idea of Christian conduct" and not to what it really is to be Christian.

Christian content is there.

Pick up John Wick's 7th Sea some day and have a look at it. For all that people have said against it, it's a pretty well fleshed out game world, and the strongest unifying factor in the setting is the church. Be it vaticine or objectionist, a broad panorma of Christian history in Europe is a central part of the game.

It's probably possible to play that game as just being about running around with swords. But then why bother with the cool setting? When we've played, even in pretty lighthearted, off the cuff stuff, the church and our personal relationship with it have always been central. The need to come to terms with your feelings about the church has always made the game stronger for us.

I'm inclined to think that I would like to try Clinton's Christian sorcerer session. I've been dicey about this in the past, because the issue scared me just a little, being so close to home. Given time to reflect on it, I think that I would enjoy such a game.

Hello,

Um, is it not apparent that The Riddle of Steel is a Christian game in precisely the terms that Jonathan describes?

Best,
Ron

What exactly would be some subtle Xn themes? Or encouragement of Xn behavior?

The reason I ask is because i'm an atheist with a philosophy of "do unto to others what you would have them do unto you." If I were to create an RPG with that theme in mind, or to encourage that behavior, would you Xns consider it Xn themed, or assume it was? I ask because I am under the general impression that the above philosophy is also shared by Xnity, and maybe to an extent many other religions.

Which brings me back to the question of what exactly would be Xn? Explicit mention of a singular supreme being? Or somesuch? Would a God be necessary?

Hi Amos,

I'm a bit confused about your question. A game cannot be Christian; only people are or are not. What a game can do (or not do) is raise issues that Christian ethics are used to grapple with.

Perhaps it would be valuable to review the point of this thread. It's about self-image and role-playing, not about what is or is not a Christian role-playing game. I think a certain amount of free-associative spinoff is a good thing, but when people start talking about what they do and don't personally believe, I start squinting and saying, "Hey, weren't we talking aout something else?"

Best,
Ron

P.S. I've posted elsewhere about how a Christian role-playing design need not enforce Christian virtue upon player-characters, but that point's been raised here already.

Clay wrote: Christian content is there.

Oooh, related idea. Sorry.

I was just thinking about the difference between a game "about Christianity" and one that was specifically "Christian." I think I may have been confusing the two in my recent posts.

For instance, you could make a game about Christian religious beliefs that ultimately concluded that they were not especially positive or true. This might be a very interesting game too, and I would be interested in playing it, but it would not be "Christian" or support a Christian faith.

As such, I think I'll change my definition of "Christian games" to those that both deal specifically with Christianity and ultimately support or futher the exploration of a Christain faith. This does not mean they have to say "Christianity is right and good" but they at least should allow for "Christianity is something worthwhile to explore and wrestle with."

Jonathan Walton wrote:
As such, I think I'll change my definition of "Christian games" to those that both deal specifically with Christianity and ultimately support or futher the exploration of a Christain faith. This does not mean they have to say "Christianity is right and good" but they at least should allow for "Christianity is something worthwhile to explore and wrestle with."

If I wanted a game that specifically modeled what being a Christian meant to me, I would choose Sorcerer hands down. The premise of the game is "what would you do?" For me at least, aside from acceptance of the possibility of salvation of my soul, that pretty much sums up what it means to be a Christian. In the end my life will be judged, with salvation or damnation in the balance.

Greetings Clay,

As this is my first post to you let me take this opportunity to say howdy.

So, howdy!

Clay wrote: If I wanted a game that specifically modeled what being a Christian meant to me, I would choose Sorcerer hands down. The premise of the game is "what would you do?" For me at least, aside from acceptance of the possibility of salvation of my soul, that pretty much sums up what it means to be a Christian. In the end my life will be judged, with salvation or damnation in the balance.

cruciel wrote: Would a Christian object to games that place christianity on an even could-be-truth slate with atheism or buddism?

I would prefer that in such a game the whole question was struck out; atheism is not possible or irrational when, as Terry Pratchett put it, the gods come round and throw stones through atheists windows. There is no need to respesent the doubt encoded mechanically, IMO: and then I and indeed anyone else can simply write off the fact of gods existance in the game as a specific setting element.

Let me take a moment and draw a line--

In my FRPG--High Valor, there is a monotheistac religion, and it is correct in its beliefs (mostly) it has splintered a bit with different orders who have different outlooks, but whose core beliefs is that The Lord on High, the Great Dreamer exists and sent a child to die so that they could be free of the enslavement by the Fane-Lords. This is the Church of the Martyr.

It is fundamentally correct--a PC's faith in following the Highlord (Priest or not) can impact the game--it can repel evil, perorm blessings (if VERY high) and even ask for miracles.

But there are still worshippers of other dieties---other "gods" who by the Church of the Martyr's teachings aren't real.


The game dictactes that /yes/ they aren't real--the people /in the game/ don't know this because of this one thing--Magic.


Magic.

You see a Spellcaster can simulate, mimic and even perform nigh identical effects to the Faithful--they can oh ward a circle with words of power to hold evil at bay. They can say words to summon up helpful spirits, or call (in the name of their god) a miracle (spell) that allows them to take the shape of a bear.


So fundamentally those peoples--mostly Rykarn, and Caen-Cluith tribes, but others simply believe that their Seers, and Shamans, (whose knowledge is passed down from teacher to some chosen child) is using the same methods and manners as the Church of the Martyr--they are all casting spells, in the name of their gods!

A civilized person who has no Faith, and thus bey definition an athiest believes much the same thing--that the Church is just using /magic/ a natural and controllable supernatural force to make people believe in a non visibile mythical entity.

Is there a benefit to playing an Athiest? Yes, your less likely to get asked to go do things in the name of the Church and or the High-Lord.

(or at least they are less likely to be able to convince your PC /why/ they should go)

The fact that faith is /real/ is to some only proof in a lesser power--not a divine providence, but just magic. Like we might say "its just Special Effects", "Its just a trick" if we actually saw someont fly, walk on water and so on. (Me I at least presume its possible because of my beliefs to /not/ be a trick--but not to the extent that I'm not going to try and look for a trick /first/ thus even I am a bit of a cynic there.)


There was a movie a few years ago called "Almost an Angel" starring what's his name of Crocodile Dundee fame (and the same young woman who was in those films as his mentor/friend/girlfriend later wife?)

In it an ex con with a knack for electronics changes his style of crime from burglary to bank-hold ups, using his "generic" appearance. He gets hurt and ends up in the hospital and believes that God (Charlton Heston) has sent him back to earth as an angel. The whole movie sets up things which /make/ him believe---being shot at but not hurt (blanks in the gun.) and so on, whereupon he finds himself trying to do what he believes is God's Work, using his skills of burglery and electronics to convince a contribitor to a kids recreation center to give them money rather than some obviously flim-flam Televangelist.


Now the entire movie sets it up to make it looke like he's delusional, but in the end--things happen which are undoubatably miracles.


Now the question is was it divine intervention? was he really an angel? or was he just had enough self-belief to override reality for a moment (much like the Magic in White Wolfs MAge Game?)




EDIT:

I forgot to mention something about possible athiests--in the game Will, that is Self Will and Faith tend to oppose each other--a person whose self is strong will tend to be less faithful (as faith often is giving up of self to let someone else handle things) and will is essentially belief in self handling things to some degree--this is why you don't find most priests using magic--and why athiests get a bonus similar to MJ Youngs---in a magical Multiverse setting, because a high will allows one to resist magic a little better (and if your magically inclined perform magic as well) this make the two "stats" a balancing act for anyone who wants to be both strong willed and faithful--a very tough, and perilous path. (Of course a high faith allows possible divine protection against magic, so it makes that benefit fairly even)

Coming in late here, but I want to weigh in behind everything M. J. has said. My approach to a thread is to basically organize my thoughts as I read until I have a point that I want to make. Pretty much every time I've had a coherent post planned out in my mind, the next entry in the thread is one from M. J. saying what I was going to say, only more clearly than I would have put it. :)

So, with all that out of the way, I'm just going to offer some personal information in the intrest of demographics: I'm a christian. I don't worry about making this known to gamers, mainly because the kind of gamers I hang around with aren't going to be bothered by it. Raven and I once had a throwdown argument over creationism, and I think we're better buds now than we were before. :)

(Incidentally, Raven's voice would be good in this thread, as he's recently had some experiences with the unfortunate "sailor moon costume" counterparts that M. J. has mentioned. Let me tell you I don't want to be associated in any way with the people who just lost Raven his job.)

I'm actually more careful about mentioning my beliefs to my orchestra colleagues than I am to gamers. This is not becasue I'm afraid of being judged by them (a non-issue for me) but because I don't want them to be afraid that *I'll* judge *them.* I don't want to be a damper that stops them from acting natural for fear of offending me.

As for my relatives, some of them are of a more legalistic bent (former baptists for example) and wouldn't understand. They've been taught that D&D is satanic, and would be disturbed if they knew I had anything to do with it. So I keep my books out of sight when they're around, in order not to cause offense.

I just want to make one (Hmm. Turns out it was more than one. Oh well. :) point about christian players and their characters.

Note: By "anti-gaming religious type" I mean the sort of person who is actually out there fighting against games (or Harry Potter, frex), not someone who has simply been *taught* that "RPGs Are Evil (TM)."

The sticking point for anti-gaming religious types typically seems to be one of two things:

1 - "evil should not be portrayed as good"
2 - "christian people should not play characters that do evil things."

I agree with the principle of #1. The problem is that activists often have made an emotional decision about the morality of something that does not have a strong scriptural foundation. I can't tell you how many times I've seen "Harry Potter makes magic seem cool. Magic is evil. Therefore, Harry Potter is evil!" And then, people make the dangerous jump to "any work containing magic is evil, regardless of how magic is portrayed." (I remember a christian friend who's mother wouldn't let him read the Hobbit.)

"Magic" as it is found in most fantasy literature is imaginary. The idea of the Bible having *anything* to say about a concept that was devised purely for entertainment is just ridiculous. If they were railing against "Kill Puppies for Satan," I could buy it. (Even that's a stretch, given the parody nature of KPS.) But against D&D? Harry Potter? It just makes me laugh. It's like saying that Lysol is poisonous, so you shouldn't eat peas, because they're the same color. Huh?

The problem is that ignorant people have loud and convincing voices.

My response to #2 is "pish posh poo" more or less. It has about the same level of reason as the argument that christian authors shouldn't write books in which the characters (frex) swear. It's ridiculous. People sin. Even christians sin (as much as the anti-gamer religious types would like to have you believe otherwise). A great deal of conflict arises from immoral behavior, or from the potential to behave immoraly. "Cloud 9: The Harp Strumming" is not going to be a very interesting RPG to play.

Finally, the idea that a christian shouldn't read books / watch movies / play games with questionable content is bogus. We live in a world that has a lot of "questionable content." If you (frex) aren't allowed to read a book that has a couple of swear words in it, how on earth are you going to handle real-world every-day encounters? (I know, I'm drifting OT, but I feel this is a relevant rant.) People have brains. Kids especially have brains. At a certain point they have to be allowed to judge for themselves what's acceptable and what's not.

Clinton R. Nixon wrote: Cruciel,

Most definitely. It's funny, because I couldn't really talk about my gaming growing up, with the very religious, very conservative, very fearful-of-the-devil parents.

Now, I live in Seattle, and am a very liberal, very ecumenical, kinda-maybe-Christian, and I wouldn't tell a soul, much less a gamer. I normally avoid talking about RPG.net's forums, but you'll get your ass verbally stoned there if you mention you believe in a god. .

A couple of points I'd like to add: As for RL relationship of christian church to RPGs, I know several groups in my home country who have at times played on church property, with the consent of the pastor. Of course, there's some things you still have to regard: My favorite anecdote is one of the pastor asking one group about the game they were playing....they described to him in general terms how RPGs work... they did NOT tell him they were playing In Nomine....which was probably a good idea.

However, as was pointed out, there's christianity and then there's christianity. In the US, with its wide diversity in denominations, the problem is that it's the loudest bunch that is obviously most visible. That, however, is in no way representative for christianity. (Note that Christianity is the larges world religion, and as such, Falwell isn't anywhere near as important for what it means to be Christian as he makes himself to be. The vast majority disagrees with him)

In fact, leading to the post regarding a christian praying ICly and an IC atheist voicing derision over it, the situation might very likely not even arise, depending on the christian:

Matthew 6,5-6: And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.