Topic: Large-scale RPG club
Started by: Irmo
Started on: 12/6/2002
Board: RPG Theory
On 12/6/2002 at 12:19am, Irmo wrote:
Large-scale RPG club
Ok, I'll start with giving an overview of the organisation of the large scale club in Germany
I'll give a basic overview of the organization, the details are, in part for legal reasons, more complicated.
For simple legal reasons, it needs a board. In this specific case, the board is composed of chairman, vice chairman, secretary and treasurer. Two members of the board can officially represent the entire club.
The board is elected annually by an assembly of members. Obviously, due to the scale of the organisation, not all members will be able to attend. Those who can't can transfer their voting right to another member of their trust, though no member is entitled to hold more than two votes on top of his own.
In areas where the club is very active, i.e. has a lot of members, local chapters are opened by decision of the board which also have chapter boards composed of chairman, secretary and treasurer. Members of the local chapter have to be members of the club (i.e. the chapter cannot accept members on its own). The board of the chapter is elected in similar fashion to the board of the entire club, scaled down. The main board of the club has a veto right to the decisions of the chapter boards and can, in case the chapter board does not fulfill its duties, dismiss negligent members of the chapter board.
The club has installed a number of task forces dealing with various issues, such as specific games, or game genres (e.g. WoD, Tabletop, D&D etc) which hold regular tournaments etc. and contribute to the conventions held by the club.
The boards of the taskforces and chapters along with the board of the club as a whole constitute a council meeting roughly at halftime between the member assemblies. With a 2/3 majority, they have a veto right to decisions of the club board (counting present votes, and at least 50% presence is required for the council to have the quorum)
Now, of course for all that to have an effect, the club has to do something, obviously.
Each regional chapter is held to stage at least one Convention anually. To do that, it acts as the full representative of the club in negotiations for rooms, provisions, etc., and is supported by the club to prefinance deposits, leases, and other necessary investments. The regional chapter is also supposed to represent the club to the press, public etc. in its area, and acts in that semi-autonomously, negotiating and organizing rooms to RP in, etc.
The entire club publishes a fanzine, subscription to which is included in membership fees, but non-members can subscribe as well, and the fanzine is sold in select game stores.
Local chapters are encouraged, but not required, to publish their own regional fanzines, on their own budget. (Not having been a member of one, I am not sure how many do, but I think most didn't, since that would mean having to generate funding.)
The club as a whole also organizes at least one annual convention, organized either by the board or delegated to a task force or local chapter.
At public cons, non-members have to pay entry fees, while for members, entry is usually included in their membership fee, though at very large-scale events, they are occasionally asked to contribute a reduced fee, IIRC.
The effect is that a)there is a larger number of conventions at which players meet players they didn't know through their own circle of friends.
b)there are some large-scale conventions fit to rouse public attention, including media attention c)there are competent people (hopefully) who can talk with the media as official representatives of a couple of hundred people with a common interest d)an organisation is created that through sheer size and hopefully financial background can move something, launch press releases, buy advertising space etc.
Mind you, it's not a cure-all. Wherever people gather in official structures and vote on things, you will have some degree of politics going on. Whereever money goes through a bunch of hands some of it will go down the drain. I've seen such clubs in financial dire straights because the one or other treasurer wasn't precisely the old Scrooge he's supposed to be. That in part is a side-effect of the fact that on the regional level, when dealing with 10-20, or maybe 30 people, things tend to be less formal, and frequently, boards are appointed by acclamation for the simple fact that there's only a handful of dudes ready to actually do some work, while the rest is just in it for the fun.
Ok, so much as a rough overview what the theoretical (based on the charter and other legal documents) status quo is. As to how it got there after the people in the know answered my emails ;)
On 12/11/2002 at 9:18pm, Mike Holmes wrote:
RE: Large-scale RPG club
I guess the really intriguing question is how did the funding come to be? I'm aware of the greater amount of this sort of thing that occurs in Europe, but how specifically did RPGs get funding? Was there some board to apply to?
Does anyone know of any government group in the US that would be a parallel? Could we get funds from, say, the NEA (not all that farfetched, I think)?
Mike
On 12/11/2002 at 10:45pm, Irmo wrote:
RE: Large-scale RPG club
Mike Holmes wrote: I guess the really intriguing question is how did the funding come to be? I'm aware of the greater amount of this sort of thing that occurs in Europe, but how specifically did RPGs get funding? Was there some board to apply to?
Does anyone know of any government group in the US that would be a parallel? Could we get funds from, say, the NEA (not all that farfetched, I think)?
Mike
I am not sure if there was a misunderstanding as to the acitivities. The club published no RPGs of its own, though several members, individually or for companies they worked for, published RPGs. The activities the club required funding for were a)providing room for its members to RP in, b)staging Cons and c)publishing its fanzine.
Sources of income were:
a)member contributions - there was an annual membership fee and, unless you joined on a convention, an application fee.
b)income from Cons, both through entry fees for non-members, and sale of snacks, club material, etc.
c)Sale of the fanzine to non-members. The fanzine was (and still is) designed very professionally, depending on the current income with color cover. Since it was independent of any company, its reviews of game material, both RPG and other, enjoyed high credibility. The fanzine also published advertisement (the fact that companies wanted to advertise in it alone should be testimony of the respect the fanzine enjoyed). It contained at times very well researched articles directly or indirectly related to roleplaying (e.g. "Medicine in the middle-ages" etc.)
Lastly, since the club was recognized as a non-profit public utility organization, it enjoyed numerous benefits such as lower leases on public property like convention centers etc. and all donations and contributions were tax deductible. As already mentioned, the CONVENTIONS in some cases were co-organized with municipal authorities, specifically the department taking care of issues concerning adolescents. (It also fulfills duties similar to CPS in the US, but goes far beyond that, also creating opportunities for constructive activity, installing skate parks, playgrounds, youth centers etc.) As such, they have a)funding and b)facilities that are usable at least for small to medium-scale cons, and can negotiate with the other departments of the city administration for their facilities.
On 12/11/2002 at 11:03pm, Mike Holmes wrote:
RE: Large-scale RPG club
My mistake, I thought that these were government funded operations. I've heard that some Scandanavian countries have this going, and assumed that this was the sort of thing that you were referring to.
That said, we do have the Role-Playing Game Association (RPGA), here in the US, now owned, I think, by WOTC. Which I think was, at least originally, supposed to perform some of the functions that you state. The problem is that it's never been quite that successful for some reason. They support cons, but I don't think they run them. Also, I don't think they have regional chapters (but I could be quite wrong about that). Perhaps what we need to do is to look at the reasons for it's lack of success.
Or maybe they are the answer, and we're just overlooking it.
Anyone know a lot about the RPGA?
Mike
On 12/11/2002 at 11:25pm, Irmo wrote:
RE: Large-scale RPG club
Mike Holmes wrote: My mistake, I thought that these were government funded operations. I've heard that some Scandanavian countries have this going, and assumed that this was the sort of thing that you were referring to.
That said, we do have the Role-Playing Game Association (RPGA), here in the US, now owned, I think, by WOTC. Which I think was, at least originally, supposed to perform some of the functions that you state. The problem is that it's never been quite that successful for some reason. They support cons, but I don't think they run them. Also, I don't think they have regional chapters (but I could be quite wrong about that). Perhaps what we need to do is to look at the reasons for it's lack of success.
Or maybe they are the answer, and we're just overlooking it.
Anyone know a lot about the RPGA?
Mike
Well, the club in Germany has been hanging in the ropes for a while as well. The reason for that is the usual problem that to lead an organisation like that, you have to have a goal and a vision, but to keep it working, you need to be able to operate systematically... For a while, they had a bunch of very creative folks at the top, who, however, didn't feel like enforcing the charter against people who weren't fulfilling their duties, which led to the effect that the club was running low on cash for no other reason that it was bogged down in regional chapters who didn't return it to the central treasury after a con. The problem with many RPG clubs is that once they reach a certain size, it becomes hard to a)administrate them while b)still RPing yourself and because people love RPing, a)sometimes suffers. But organizations of that size run only efficiently when they are consistently oiled and greased, which occasionally also involves planting a boot on the posterior of people you personally like. At the same time, stagnation is death and unless one has the feeling one is getting somewhere with the club, it is soon taken for granted and forgotten. That's why a vision is needed.
On 12/12/2002 at 8:16pm, Seth L. Blumberg wrote:
RE: Large-scale RPG club
The biggest problems with the RPGA are its focus on tournaments to the exclusion of any other form of play, and its status as a TSR/WotC house organ. It completely lacks credibility.
On 12/12/2002 at 8:45pm, Irmo wrote:
RE: Large-scale RPG club
Seth L. Blumberg wrote: The biggest problems with the RPGA are its focus on tournaments to the exclusion of any other form of play, and its status as a TSR/WotC house organ. It completely lacks credibility.
That's the impression I had through my second- and third-hand knowledge.
I think for an organisation to be credible, and to entice people actually giving it money, it has to be independent at the least from the industry, and it has to spend its funds visibly in a fashion the members see themselves profiting from. But as pointed out, it also needs a treasurer with some of the qualities of a loan shark ;) Those guiding it need at the same time a hefty dose of organization talent and responsibility, and vision as well, but I think that can most easily be found among people who are trying to make a business out of their hobby anyway.
On 12/12/2002 at 8:49pm, Mike Holmes wrote:
RE: Large-scale RPG club
That's the usual anti-RPGA line. And it's probably valid. Still, can we hear from anyone who might be a member, or have a good opinion of it? I'm wondering if there might not be other problems than Seth mentioned. For example, there cerainly seem to be enough D&D players to support the RPGA well.
I have to say that they do run other games, and theoretically have an open-door policy. For example, Cthulhu games have been a staple of RPGA events for eons. And if you ever get a chance to see a Cthulhu Masters game, go for it (assuming they still do that sort of thing).
Shadowrun is also pretty well represented, IIRC. So they do allow some non-WOTC activity.
The point is, why didn't this become somthing more? The organizers?
Looking into it a little myself, they do run their one convention Winter Fantasy Revel in Ft. Wayne, IN. Here's the staff:
Ian Richards, RPGA Program Manager
Stephen Radney-MacFarland, RPGA Content Developer
Not very extensive.
Weird. As I look at the site (www.rpga.com gets you to a WOTC subsite), it seems like there are fees for registering. But then it seems to be free on another page. Seems kinda schitzophrenic.
Hmmm. Maybe we should look at this from another POV. If a well organized national RPG club did exist, would you join it? How much would you pay to join (if anything)? What benefits would you would you expect to see from membership?
Mike
On 12/12/2002 at 9:47pm, Alan wrote:
RE: Large-scale RPG club
Mike Holmes wrote: Hmmm. Maybe we should look at this from another POV. If a well organized national RPG club did exist, would you join it? How much would you pay to join (if anything)? What benefits would you would you expect to see from membership?
$40 a year?
Nonprofit and independant of any for profit corporation would be most important to me.
Local events would be next most important. Especially, a venue for a weekly or bi-weekly meeting, with format and rules that encourages emotionally mature and interesting players to attend. Democratic club decision-making.
A membership newsletter (with options to read online instead of receving a printed copy.) No glossy printing - focus on good content - designer interviews, member reviews, event listings, player's sought, etc. Reserve space for small press products.
A website with similar content, a player/game finder database, a local club database - and moderated forums.
10% discount at particpating dealers?
On 12/12/2002 at 9:56pm, Valamir wrote:
RE: Large-scale RPG club
Thanks for the summary IRMO.
Mike, I'm not sure what you mean by more.
RPGA is pretty damn huge. For the brief while I was a member I got a subscription to Polyhedron which was at least as good a magazine as Dragon and a bunch of modules and adventure packs and that sort of thing. Course by the time I could afford to join on my own, I'd long since given up D&D, and despite dabbling in other things RPGA really is the DDGA.
Still the various Living City events it put together (even a Living Seattle for Shadow Run) were for a time (don't know if this is still the case) the most widely attended events at the major cons.
Anyone here a member of CABS (Columbia Area Boardgamers Society). They always have a big showing at Origins and until Game Base 7 came around were pretty much single handedly responsible for maintaing a non German board game presence at the Con. I wonder if they are actually organized or are more a "club" of the US variety. I know they have officers (president and such) but don't know much about them beyond that. Might be a good model to take a look at too.
On 12/12/2002 at 10:01pm, Seth L. Blumberg wrote:
RE: Large-scale RPG club
The point is, why didn't [the RPGA] become somthing more?
You locked onto the "house organ" thing, and missed the point about the tournament focus. Most gamers aren't interested in tournament play, and the RPGA doesn't support anything else. Furthermore, even for those who enjoy Gamist events at cons, the generally higher event fees for RPGA events are a discouraging factor. Finally, the standardized adventure framework used to maintain the supposed integrity of the rankings leads to cookie-cutter adventures.
The RPGA has always had an exclusive focus on tournament play, analogous to chess and bridge federations.
[edit] I cross-posted with Ralph....
If Polyhedron was at least as good a magazine as Dragon when you received it, I deduce that your flirtation with it was somewhat later than mine.
On 12/12/2002 at 10:17pm, Valamir wrote:
RE: Large-scale RPG club
Seth L. Blumberg wrote:
If Polyhedron was at least as good a magazine as Dragon when you received it, I deduce that your flirtation with it was somewhat later than mine.
I'd have to try to dredge up an old issue to know for sure, but I'm going to guess somewhere in the vicinity of 1995...which IIRC was also when the Living City was at its peak. At least everyone I gamed with was playing Living City. In fact, my first 3 major cons were 90% Living City session...after 8-12 session in a Con you'd have leveled up multiple times, got a zillion magic certs and would engage in some serious horse trading in the various Living City Larps (which were mostly players trading equipment for use in their next table top game)...that was in the 94-96 era for me...even went to various regional cons like Three Rivers and Circle of Swords where Living City was the #1 attraction.
In fact at my first GenCon there was a HUGE feud between RPGA members and Magic Players. I recall my friend and several others running up and down halls screaming "Magic:the Scattering" as they upended card tables and dumped peoples long boxes out onto the floor.
At least back then (which IIRC was also the hieght of AD&D2e supplement fest) the RPGA was a pretty dominant force at every con I was at. For me personally it was the discovery of Origins (1st or 2nd year it was in Columbus) which still was holding on to its war game heritage (where my gaming starting) that weaned me out of the Living City Circuit for good.
On 12/12/2002 at 10:50pm, Mike Holmes wrote:
RE: Large-scale RPG club
RPGA sanctioned events do not have to be tournament style. That said, they tend to be, and, yes, they do promote the Gamist POV. But as Ralph points out, that is actually effective at attracting players.
I'm aware the group was large. My point has been that all it seems to do is sanction events. GMs would probably still run these games at cons even if the RPGA did not exist. Which is to say that there doesn't seem to be any more D&D going on for the RPGAs existence than without it. It seems a failure in this sense because it doesn't seem to do anything to actually promote play. When I say "more" I mean more play.
And with all that membership the RPGA does one Con. One. All else is just attending other Cons, and, again, sanctioning events there, from what I've seen so far. I totally agree with Seth, that the sanctioning is worthless for the most part. What I assumed that we were looking for is monies gathered to be spent on concentions per Irmo's description of how the German organization works.
This all said, I still think we've yet to hear from anyone who's really inside and knows how it all works (or doesn't).
But the question still stands: what can we learn from the example of the RPGA? So far:
1) I think we all agree that any such club should be independant as Alan points out. I doubt it would make any sense to discuss anything else here.
2) The club should sponsor play, not just sanction it. This includes Cons.
3) If that takes actual dues, then it takes dues.
4) Do a good newsletter. Keep quality high.
OK, this is all obvous. So is there anything else that we can get from the analysis? Can anyone cite other good things they've done. If the RPGA is really hopeless, then perhaps not. In that case, we can just continue to move straight to the brainstorming part.
Alan, cool ideas for the newsletter and website concepts.
Mike
On 12/12/2002 at 10:59pm, Irmo wrote:
Con
Ok, if you want to get an idea what the club is doing, here's a link to the English version of the Flyer for the 2003 FeenCon, which is the Con organized by the club on the top-level (as opposed to the local chapter-cons):
http://www.feencon.de/download/flyer2003_engl.pdf
Note that this far in advance, the program is still vague and preliminary. Though traditional events from the program site include raffles, an auction of used gaming material, a "bring & buy" (and sell) of used material, numerous publishers with their own stands, a boardgame lease, and some german authors and artists. (They also had good old Elmore, once, hence the use of a "logo" drawn by him)
*g* Ok, and for the menu: http://www.feencon.de/essen.html (in German, though ;) )
And if you want to know how much support they were able to rally, check the list of sponsors at:
http://www.feencon.de/dank.html
(scroll down)
Also, all guests receive a door prize bag which usually includes dice, trading cards and whatever the sponsors sponsor ;).
On 12/12/2002 at 11:10pm, Irmo wrote:
RE: Large-scale RPG club
Mike Holmes wrote:
4) Do a good newsletter. Keep quality high.
Regarding the newsletter, as already mentioned, the journal of the german club has a very high reputation for their quality. That being said, what they DON'T have is a regular printing schedule, they only promise a certain number of issues per year. Beyond that, when it's done, it's done. If the club has anything urgent to communicate in between, or just wants to bring something to the member's attention, they sometimes sent an extraordinary black&white mininewsletter out.
On 12/13/2002 at 12:19am, quozl wrote:
RE: Large-scale RPG club
I'm not sure if it belongs here but I have a question.
What's the difference between a large-scale RPG club and The Forge?
On 12/13/2002 at 12:33am, Irmo wrote:
RE: Large-scale RPG club
quozl wrote: I'm not sure if it belongs here but I have a question.
What's the difference between a large-scale RPG club and The Forge?
A club organizes RP events. A large-scale club organizes RP events both on a local and regional/national scale. That's both regular cons and individual local weekly/biweekly opportunities to RP at a fixed location and time (for those who can't RP at home). A club is an organization not just with a presence towards its members but towards the outside as well. It actively goes out to recruit new members and to promote the interests of present members (e.g. by writing letters to the editor of newspapers running anti-RPG articles, by talking with city officials etc.). The Forge has a number of members that are essentially incognito. While many use their real name, short of knowing them personally, there is no way of knowing that that is in fact their real name. A club has a member roster and official proof it represents a certain number of people with a common interest.
When charging membership fees, a club has operating funds and doesn't have to ask for donations.
Among other things.
On 12/13/2002 at 1:50pm, quozl wrote:
RE: Large-scale RPG club
So, if The Forge organized RP events, actively recruited new members, promoted roleplaying, and verified the identity of its members, would it be a large-scale game club?
On 12/13/2002 at 2:44pm, Ozymandias wrote:
RE: Large-scale RPG club
Mike Holmes wrote: That's the usual anti-RPGA line. And it's probably valid. Still, can we hear from anyone who might be a member, or have a good opinion of it? I'm wondering if there might not be other problems than Seth mentioned. For example, there cerainly seem to be enough D&D players to support the RPGA well.
As member and occassional attendee of RPGA events, I can fill in a couple of the gaps here.
1. Membership in the RPGA is free and has been since earlier this year when they converted Polyhedron from being a publication for RPGA members to being the flipside of Dungeon Magazine used to cover d20 stuff.
2. The primary focus of the organization is the various Living campaigns (some official RPGA campaigns and some member sponsored). I think this may be what Seth was referring to as tournaments, in that you're playing through a pre-set module, but it should be noted that people do play maintain and advance their characters from module to module and so we're talking about something a bit more complicated and there is a bit more character attachment than a one-shot tpe tourney at a con. Pretty much all the campaigns are D&D (or at least d20) centric with the only exceptions being an Alternity and a Shadowrun campaign.
3. While members can take initiative towards starting and maintaining non-WotC campaigns (ie: Shadowrun) the RPGA is essentially, as Seth already said, a house organ for WotC.
4. The are numerous regional and local chapters which sponsor small cons and game days throughout the year. (The one here in North Georgia, will generally have at least one event per month.)
Now, all that said, I would think there is definitly room for a broader-based club on a national scale. Organized play is an excellent way to introduce new people into the hobby as well introduce those in the hobby to new games. I do know who those currently utilize the RPGA as their primary source for roleplaying less because they like D&D than because they like the reliablity of play that the organization provides them. A club which offers that along with a greater variety of games would most certainly appeal to a decent-sized group of people.
Finally, it is worth noting that there are at least two other clubs sponsored by RPG companies, those being White Wolf's Camarilla and Kenzerco's HMPA. Past that it's pretty wide open so far as I know.
Hmmm. Maybe we should look at this from another POV. If a well organized national RPG club did exist, would you join it?
Yup.
How much would you pay to join (if anything)? What benefits would you would you expect to see from membership?
I think the club providing regular events, game days, etc in order to get people actually playing games would be my biggest priority. In terms of cost it would depend on what one is actually getting for said cost. If you're paying for a membership, then I'd definitly want to get some sort of magazine/newsletter. It'd also be reasonable to charge a modest fee for mini-cons or game days hosted by the club (typical RPGA event would run $10 for the weekend which include 5-7 sessions of playing) this would help to offset the cost of a given venue (which is generally pretty cheap if not free as we're generally talking about the student center at a local college or a local game store) and support the club.
On 12/13/2002 at 2:47pm, Mike Holmes wrote:
RE: Large-scale RPG club
quozl wrote: So, if The Forge organized RP events, actively recruited new members, promoted roleplaying, and verified the identity of its members, would it be a large-scale game club?
Jon, shhhhh! Don't spoil it by making it obvious too early...
OK, too late. Yes, that's been my thinking all along. Or, if not The Forge itself, then an associated organization.
The only real problem at this point is the relatively low membership. Let's call a third of our members or, say, 350 people, "active", and imagine that they all joined up. At $40 each, that's just $14,000 dollars a year to promote events. That's one small Con. Easier to organize the Con, and charge the $40 at the door. To get things going on a larger scale, we'd need to be able to accmulate a much larger membership.
So, any ideas how that could be done to expand membership while not damaging the community? This is why I'm thinking that a Forge Auxilliary or somethign might be more appropriate. Somewhat like how Indie Net-gaming is associated informally right now.
Cracked? Or does this make any sense?
Mike
On 12/13/2002 at 2:52pm, Mike Holmes wrote:
RE: Large-scale RPG club
Ozymandias wrote:I think that Seth was refering to the normal events like you see at GenCon. Which do have a tournament advancement method in most games (or at least did in the past). That is, the best role-player from each session is advanced to the next round of play.
2. The primary focus of the organization is the various Living campaigns (some official RPGA campaigns and some member sponsored). I think this may be what Seth was referring to as tournaments,
Note that this is a definite improvement, IMHO, from the method used for tournaments run prviously by TSR where advancement was by party using a point system for the party who crushed the module in the most tactically sound manner. But that's just my anti-Gamist bias showing.
Mike
On 12/13/2002 at 2:58pm, quozl wrote:
RE: Large-scale RPG club
Mike Holmes wrote: Jon, shhhhh! Don't spoil it by making it obvious too early...
Sorry, I get so impatient.... :-)
Mike Holmes wrote: So, any ideas how that could be done to expand membership while not damaging the community? This is why I'm thinking that a Forge Auxilliary or somethign might be more appropriate. Somewhat like how Indie Net-gaming is associated informally right now.
Cracked? Or does this make any sense?
Mike
I also think that a "large scale internet rpg club" should be done on a different site. This site is too closely focused to be what this hypothetical club needs to be.
That said, you're going to need incentives for large numbers of people to join (otherwise, you'll just get the hardcore). Since I'm assuming nobody has donated a pot of gold, what can you give to members shelling out their money? A magazine is a good idea but we'll need volunteers and material (a free indie game in each magazine is a great idea and has really boosted Polyhedron). What else?
On 12/13/2002 at 3:17pm, Alan wrote:
RE: Large-scale RPG club
Mike Holmes wrote: So, any ideas how that could be done to expand membership while not damaging the community? This is why I'm thinking that a Forge Auxilliary or somethign might be more appropriate. Somewhat like how Indie Net-gaming is associated informally right now.
Aha! I've suspected that Ron's five posts were leading this direction since #4!
First, I'm concerned about the integrity of vision for the Forge. If this forum were to become the core of a larger, more generalized one, we would probably see a dilution of what makes the Forge attractive to me. Could we set up a separate club forum without being elitist, or being seen as elitist?
Second, how to grow. Well, Forge members are spread throughout the US and some of the world. I perceive that many Forgers would agree that local events are an important element of a club. Forge members could recruit locally.
As an example, Clinton, Mark, Matt, Jeff, and I (and few others) are all connected in one way or another with the informal Seattle Gamers Assemble. The last few Monday's we've had an exciting little "open Game Night" developing at a gamestore. Some of us have even mentioned presenting a zero-budget, mini indie-con.
Such an event would be a place to kick off recruitment. If many such events took place in the coming year in the different cities which Forgers occupy, the organization would grow. If the new members actually find benefits in being a member, then it'll grow by word of mouth. Build it and they will come.
On 12/13/2002 at 3:31pm, Mike Holmes wrote:
RE: Large-scale RPG club
Alan wrote:Hey, this is my agenda, not Ron's! ;-)
Aha! I've suspected that Ron's five posts were leading this direction since #4!
But seriously, I woudn't be surprised if Ron actually thought that this was a bad idea. He and I have some differences of opinions over the results of the whole Big 5 essays thing.
OTOH, maybe he thinks its cool, too. But let's not assume anything.
First, I'm concerned about the integrity of vision for the Forge. If this forum were to become the core of a larger, more generalized one, we would probably see a dilution of what makes the Forge attractive to me. Could we set up a separate club forum without being elitist, or being seen as elitist?I think we're all thinking along that line. I think it could work, theoretically.
Second, how to grow. Well, Forge members are spread throughout the US and some of the world. I perceive that many Forgers would agree that local events are an important element of a club. Forge members could recruit locally.Recruiting is hard work. Ask any military recruiter. Sure this would be easier, but they work full time. Anyhow, the logistics involved in recruiting are just crazy. It's way stressful.
As an example, Clinton, Mark, Matt, Jeff, and I (and few others) are all connected in one way or another with the informal Seattle Gamers Assemble. The last few Monday's we've had an exciting little "open Game Night" developing at a gamestore. Some of us have even mentioned presenting a zero-budget, mini indie-con.Sounds like a good model for a chapter. I think that's one thing that we'd definitely have to outline well if this were to get off the ground.
Such an event would be a place to kick off recruitment. If many such events took place in the coming year in the different cities which Forgers occupy, the organization would grow. If the new members actually find benefits in being a member, then it'll grow by word of mouth. Build it and they will come.I wonder how the game stores would react. Should be a positive thing, I'd think. But I'm not entirely convinced. Sounds mostly like we'd be attracting the current game crowd in. As opposed to outside recruitment. Still...
Mike
On 12/13/2002 at 3:33pm, Ozymandias wrote:
RE: Large-scale RPG club
Mike Holmes wrote:
The only real problem at this point is the relatively low membership. Let's call a third of our members or, say, 350 people, "active", and imagine that they all joined up. At $40 each, that's just $14,000 dollars a year to promote events. That's one small Con. Easier to organize the Con, and charge the $40 at the door. To get things going on a larger scale, we'd need to be able to accmulate a much larger membership.
I think worrying about putting a big con together up front is kinda putting the cart before the horse. You might want to work on getting things organized at the local level building upwards from there. Small local cons can be run for next to nothing.
So, any ideas how that could be done to expand membership while not damaging the community? This is why I'm thinking that a Forge Auxilliary or somethign might be more appropriate. Somewhat like how Indie Net-gaming is associated informally right now.
Another thing you might consider is working out deals with indy designers and companies to to give out swag to volunteers in exchange for them donating their time to run to games. This would provide a benefical service to the designers in that it would mean their games are getting demoed in places they would never get the chance to do it themselves and gives some added incentive to help get volunteers to run the events.
On 12/13/2002 at 3:48pm, Alan wrote:
RE: Large-scale RPG club
Mike Holmes wrote: But seriously, I woudn't be surprised if Ron actually thought that this was a bad idea. He and I have some differences of opinions over the results of the whole Big 5 essays thing.
He seems to have a gift for non-directive leadership. I don't think I could have launched a series of posts like his without having a goal in mind. Maybe his only goal is for the community to address the issue - very commendable.
I wonder how the game stores would react. Should be a positive thing, I'd think. But I'm not entirely convinced. Sounds mostly like we'd be attracting the current game crowd in. As opposed to outside recruitment.
Gack! Of course it would be for attracting the current game crowd. The club needs to live before it can make any formal attempt at outreach to non-rpgers. My vision is a better organization for existing gamers. A successful organization would increase visibility and be able to attract new people to the hobby. The other way around would be, as you say, difficult.
On 12/13/2002 at 4:08pm, Irmo wrote:
RE: Large-scale RPG club
Alan wrote:
Second, how to grow. Well, Forge members are spread throughout the US and some of the world. I perceive that many Forgers would agree that local events are an important element of a club. Forge members could recruit locally.
As an example, Clinton, Mark, Matt, Jeff, and I (and few others) are all connected in one way or another with the informal Seattle Gamers Assemble. The last few Monday's we've had an exciting little "open Game Night" developing at a gamestore. Some of us have even mentioned presenting a zero-budget, mini indie-con.
Such an event would be a place to kick off recruitment. If many such events took place in the coming year in the different cities which Forgers occupy, the organization would grow. If the new members actually find benefits in being a member, then it'll grow by word of mouth. Build it and they will come.
I think this is where I should drop in with a bit of info on how the club in Germany developed, having received the information.
Since the mail was occasionally quite amusing, I'll simply translate it. One note, though, the author is an Ex-member, who left the Guild a while ago, somewhat disillusioned:
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Weeell, back in the Glory Days when Fighter still were real Fighters, and female Clerics real female Clerics, and dark dungeons filled with orcs, designed by Gary Gygax were still dark dungeons filled with orcs designed by Gary Gygax,
...it came to be that some folks in the Rhineland region, especially the city of Duesseldorf, coined the strange idea to form a club called 'Master's must', which got its name from the idea that all the poor GMs also wanted to be a player once in a while and not just 'master' the game all the time.
Well, after two or three meetings, the whole affair died again.
However, some participants, many from Cologne, regretted that fact and scooped up the ashes of "Master's must" and formed a new club, the "Guild of Fantasy-Roleplayers" on a gamer meeting in Cologne.
Back then (1987), cons were pretty rare, and not widely known, especially pure RPG cons, and these events organized by the Guild were the engine for a dramatic membership growth (The numbers, of course, not the members -well, some of them, too, in width ;) )
One incentive for that were certainly the goods and services provided by the Guild for its members: Free entry on all guild-Cons, (and free participation in all gaming rounds, not just for guildmembers) as well as (theoretically) four times a year the journal "Windgefluester", that (in all modesty) especially due to the endeavors of a restless editor-in-chief reached a level that met or surpassed that of professional magazines. Also, the club and the magazine always stayed independent of publishers and other interest groups.
The whole was driven by people who hoped to form the guild into an umbrella organization in which all people interested in the fantastic could find their interests represented. First and foremost roleplayers, but also tabletop gamers, fantastic literature and movies, later also LARPs, etc
The large number of members (over 600 in its prime) lead to subgroups being formed under the umbrella of the top-level club, organized either thematically (task forces) or regionally (local chapters). The idea behind the latter was to make the Guild the umbrella over regional dependencies.
As we know by now, it didn't quite work out. An organization of that size brings with itself that it can't just be managed on the fly, especially not by creative visionaries (read: chaotic slobs ;) ) who abhor administrative work. The leadership of the Guild eventually drifted from the founders who, in the meantime, were either burned out or drifted into family life, to people who thought to be able to get a better grip on things. Which they could, without a doubt, but they lacked the vision for new ideas. And since stagnation is death, the long slide down began. Although other causes of course were the Magic:The Plague...errmm the Gathering shock, and the fact that the generation of Nintendo-Kids was hard to motivate to contribute to something like the Guild.
But you wanted to know how it started, not how it went down the drain, so I better stop now... :) "
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So, if the goods and services are right, it shouldn't be too much of a problem to gather members by local recruiting and increasing the number of members independently of any internet site. Occasionally, one member or the other will move for job or family related reasons, and maybe open a new chapter at his new location. Starting small doesn't mean one can't be large eventually, and I think the internet does a lot to facilitate logistics even over a great distance.
On 12/13/2002 at 6:37pm, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: Large-scale RPG club
Hello,
I seem to have been invoked here once or twice ...
Anyway, I'd love to see a club such as Irmo describes get started. I'd also think that the Forge wouldn't be it, but could very well interface with it, in terms of appropriate forum topics and articles here. Certainly the two activities could serve as membership-feeders for one another.
Best,
Ron
On 12/13/2002 at 6:54pm, Mike Holmes wrote:
RE: Large-scale RPG club
Well, that sounds good.
Next question. Anybody interested in the duties? :-)
That's, of course, the hard part. Such an organizaton is going to be only as good as the leaders who direct it. Which, of course, takes time and commitment.
We can talk about such a club in theoretical terms until we're blue in the face, but that won't ever produce any actual play. :-)
As long as we are theorizing, however, I would assume that the club charter would be fairly strictly limited to RPGs? Indie RPGs? If so, you need a tight definition.
Mike
On 12/13/2002 at 7:31pm, Alan wrote:
RE: Large-scale RPG club
Hi Mike et al.,
I started two new threads: one on the scope and mission of a large club, and one on creating a healthy foundation.
I'd be happy to take on some responsibilities. However, it's exhausting to organize a group without a sufficient distribution of workload. We would need an growth committee of ten or twenty energetic contributors just to begin with - and an active effort to bring more people in to help as they join.
On 12/13/2002 at 7:31pm, quozl wrote:
RE: Large-scale RPG club
Mike Holmes wrote: Anybody interested in the duties? :-)
Mike
What are the actual duties?
On 12/13/2002 at 9:21pm, Mike Holmes wrote:
RE: Large-scale RPG club
quozl wrote: What are the actual duties?
If you don't know then you can't be a founder. ;-)
What I mean to say is that it would be non-sensical IMO, to decide on duties, and then try to find a person to fit. I think we have a general idea. We'd need a director, a newsletter editor, treasurer, etc. But what exactly the form would take would have to be decided by these people.
That is to say that if I say that the head of theis club needs to spend 30 hours a week on organizational matters, and I do not then volunteer to take that position that I hardly expect anyone else to do so.
What should happen is that people who believe that they have the drive to make a go of something like this should get together, and then decide on the exact nature of what needs to be done and how.
It would seem to me that Alan has boldly stepped forward to accept some responsibility. I am considering it myself, but really need to take some time and consider whether or not I don't already have too much going on. And I would encourage others to cconsider carefully, too, whether or not they are actually capable of leading such an effort. My question was not meant to actually ask who would step forward, but to point out that we were theorizing in the absence of any evidence that there is anyone willing to take on the duties (but now we have Alan).
That said, I'm more than willing to continue to specualte about duties. And I'd love to serve in the position of Philosophical Advisor, if that's available, and for what it's worth. But, again, I hold no illusions that this will actually help to get the job done.
Mike
On 12/13/2002 at 10:05pm, Alan wrote:
RE: Large-scale RPG club
Mike Holmes wrote: And I'd love to serve in the position of Philosophical Advisor, if that's available.
Sorry, Mike - in an organizing drive, everyone has to work in the trenches. For it to work, each person would have to take responsibility, say, for contacting gamers and clubs in his area, collecting names, selling memberships, arranging, say, a mini-con, contributing to the newsletter, etc.
As I tried to indicate in a previous post, I'm not willing to take on sole responsibility for the work involved, but I'm willing to be one of a team. And I was serious about needing ten or twenty energetic individuals as a beginning, not an end. One grunt (me) and one philisophical advisor (you) is not a workable option.
If you want it to happen, maybe you can ask a few friends to participte. The more bearers, the lighter each load is.
On 12/13/2002 at 10:25pm, quozl wrote:
RE: Large-scale RPG club
I'm still not seeing what the club actually does. There's a local con here, Game Storm, that has some people on its board that I know. If I go to them and tell them there's a great large-scale rpg club starting, what do I tell them when they ask why they should join?
On 12/13/2002 at 10:29pm, Mike Holmes wrote:
RE: Large-scale RPG club
More or less what I thought. Good rhetoric, Alan; scare off the weak before they join the leadership team thinking that it's a free ride. :-)
Oh, if I get involved, there will be a lot of people that I'll be dragging in, too.
I am tempted to commit here and now. Give me a day or two to talk it over with the wife, wilya! ;-)
BTW, if you're going to attract more followers to the cause, mayhap it would make sense for us to know your personal qualifications, Alan. What do you bring to the table? What particular function do you feel that you would best serve in such an organization.
Mike
On 12/13/2002 at 10:40pm, Mike Holmes wrote:
RE: Large-scale RPG club
quozl wrote: I'm still not seeing what the club actually does.
What can I say, Jon; I don't think we've gotten that far, yet. I mean, we've certainly got a basic concept. It's a group that promotes play. This would be through creating events, getting players together, finding space for games to be played, mentoring people through the process of setting games up and even playing them (in a physically present way, as opposed to internet advice). Just for starters.
Of course there's the newsletter which you mentioned. I personally see that as more supportive than creative, but that's just my vision. Lot's of other possibilities.
For example, it would be cool if he club could leverage some sort of deal to get space for play cheap, that was not in dirty FLGS basements. I'm thinking that maybe some hotel chain with conference rooms. Unlikely to be cost efective (we don't have the publicly available spaces like they apparently do in germany, AFAIK), but I'm just brainstorming.
These are just off the cuff ideas. What would you like to see a club do?
Belay that answer. It belongs in the other thread. :-)
Mike
On 12/13/2002 at 10:57pm, Alan wrote:
RE: Large-scale RPG club
quozl wrote: I'm still not seeing what the club actually does. There's a local con here, Game Storm, that has some people on its board that I know. If I go to them and tell them there's a great large-scale rpg club starting, what do I tell them when they ask why they should join?
That's a good question. I don't know. It's not the place of a single individual or small group to determine. I started a "Scope and Mission" thread to explore this. Part of the job of the first ten or twenty members will be to figure that out and have a coherant message to present to potential new members.
On 12/13/2002 at 11:05pm, Alan wrote:
RE: Large-scale RPG club
Mike Holmes wrote: BTW, if you're going to attract more followers to the cause, mayhap it would make sense for us to know your personal qualifications, Alan. What do you bring to the table? What particular function do you feel that you would best serve in such an organization.
I volunteered and now you want to see my teeth?
The polite way to phrase this quesiton would be first to offer one's own creditentials, then ask for others.
On 12/14/2002 at 4:00pm, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: Large-scale RPG club
Hello,
This is your moderator speaking. Settle down, please, everyone. Alan has proposed something worth pursuing, and he is ipso facto leader. No justification necessary.
Best,
Ron
On 12/14/2002 at 5:33pm, Clinton R. Nixon wrote:
RE: Large-scale RPG club
Hello,
This is also your moderator speaking, re-iterating Ron's statement. We're the Forge, people - rudeness usually isn't common here, unless it's from me.
Now that I've gotten all moderator-y, my two cents: I don't think a club like this will successfully start at the national level. Without very good local support, a national club would have a hard time coming into being.
What I could envision, however, is the roots of the national club starting early: in each major area of Forge (or role-playing) activity, like Seattle, Milwaukee, Chicago, Los Angeles, Bay Area, Peoria, etc., one person takes charge and starts a local role-playing club. All of these people, however, could talk online first and set a charter that each will follow, allowing them, when the local organizations get big enough, to interface locally. (See "Large-scale RPG club - scope and mission" to see my ideas about what these local clubs would look like.)
And lastly: Alan's qualifications are impeccable - he can successfully organize people better than anyone I've met recently. I tried to start something like this indie game night we're doing now about a year or so ago, and it flopped. His attempt has been successful from the first week.
On 12/15/2002 at 8:11am, Alan wrote:
RE: Large-scale RPG club
Hi Mike,
Our moderators seem to think this is a heated exchange. I did mean to assert myself, but with humor. But if I read underlying assumptions into your question, I apologize. I hope we can continue.
As for leadership issues - I have no intention of being sole leader or of competing for kudos. You started the idea and you obviously have passion for it, as do I. I had expected nothing else but that we might found a team together.
Which I suppose is the next step.