Hello, since Rob said that Erics (pyrons) thread was to no longer be used, i firgured that i would simply say that, i am Avery, one of the other players in cody's Battletech compaign. I read through all of the thread that pyron had started and decided that my opinion should be heard, since it sems as of now that everyone is saying that the people RPGing with cody are gamists and such. Frankly, i don't care if you classify me as a gamest. I would rather say though that i am a little of both, depending on the GM, whether it be Eric or Cody, since i have not been around for anyone else's campaigns. I would also like to add, that i have only been in one of Erics campaigns, but many of cody's, so of course im going to be somewhat gamest because i havn't been around someone (eric) who is not gamest thats GMing. If you have any questions, feel free to ask them. But i have a great since that Rob will say that i should not have posted this and that no one should reply, if he doesn't feel free to do so.

Aragorn

sorry Ron, when reading that above, replace all instances of 'ROB' with RON, thanks

Aragorn

LOL Avery, and Welcome to the Forge!

No one can be a gamist. One can be gamist. Don't let Jesse mess you up.

Here, there is no shame prefering the gamist mindset, and you don't have to be defensive. I'm glad that you've posted here. I'm working with Ron with restarting the thread (or whatever) and hope that you'll contribute to the discussion with us then.

As for saying that Cody's players are gamist minded, I never actually said that. I would say that Cody's teqnique encourages the sim. mindset, but I don't know what his disposition to wargaming has to do with it.

BTW- There's an edit post option.

its not jesse that would mess me up, it would be cody. All i was simply saying was that i havn't had much expierence in the way of a non-gamest GM or DM for that matter like yourself, i have had Cody and Leon, both gamests, so i've become a gamest, im sure that if i were to do some sessions with you, charlie, and me, i would most defenitally no longer be such a gamist. since i know how to do the D6 system now (still learning though), i would be more then happy to join n e Star wars, D&D, or n e other campaign that would be brought up. I am also in support of letting Charlie GM or DM depending on the game. I think we should let all of us at leats try it. If we don't like the way they do it, then we tell them, and we don't let them GM or DM n e more. I am, of course, supporting myself to DM once i have read the Dungoen Masters book. i know you will object, but like i said, we all deserve a try. i will probably mix up everything that i have learned from playing RPG's to make the game more...how shall i say... interesting? its not going to be combat, combat, combat. I would instead, have a good story line. it will be challenging i will say that at the least. AND I WILL MAKE SURE THAT CODY WILL NOT HAVE THE CHOICE OF BEING N E THING THAT CAN HEAL!!! no cleric, no medic, no cleric fighter, no ranger, no paladin, no n e thing that can heal. The only way he will be n e thing that can heal is if none of you are someone that can heal. So i strongly suggest that one of you be someone that can heal. Cody needs to learn how to differ his characters some. I think i will leave this at this once again.

Aragorn

Good post, Avery. I would be more than happy to let you RP with my in any of my campaigns, excluding my current one. However, I think that you still need to learn more about GNS before you begin using the terminology. I can't get links to work, but you can easily find Ron's essay if you go to articles and then to "GNS and other matters of roleplaying design." Good luck :).

Pyron wrote: ...you can easily find Ron's essay if you go to articles and then to "GNS and other matters of roleplaying design."

Aragorn wrote:
...so i've become a gamest,...

... its not going to be combat, combat, combat. I would instead, have a good story line.

So there seems to be a fair amount of communication going on then. Is this the first time you guys have been in the "lets all talk about what we play" boat?

OK so you got what sounds like a lot of aspirant GMS's. I say, set up a schedule and try it out. This is X's month to be GM, whatever.

Some speculative stuff has been bandied about to the effect that the group may be playing in a gamist manner and there may be a style/expectation clash; but we are not really in a position to diagnose and can only feed suggestions into your own analysis.

That said, I am mildly alarmed by the statement that "cody needs to learn to..." RPG is fun not a lesson in life, IMO.. you really riusk getting up his nose in a big way if you compel a chnage for your reasons. Why not have a conversation about wehat he gets out of healer characters? Or play a game in which healing is not magical but real time, and see how he responds, what sort of character he develops in that context.

Hey, Avery! Welcome to the Forge. Personally, I think it would be a very good idea to let others besides Eric and myself GM for a while, considering I come in second or third in the most frequent GM. Charly has had his FR campaign for AD&D 2nd Ed. ready for a while, and that would be interesting. Also, I have nothing against you GM/DMing either, and you guys will never get better if you never try it.

Considering your influences, Avery, you will have a gamist mindset. If you consider this to be "bad," the "cure" would be to try other styles of RPG play, or GM yourself. Also, if you wanted to totally quit the hack and slash style for a while, I would suggest that you at least temporarily stop going to the Monday D&D sessions. As for Cody and healing, I wouldn't ban it all together, but if we did do as contracycle said, and made magic, healing, etc. real time, it would definitely change Cody's opinions and attitudes about such characters.

For any new GMs our party may have, my interests in RPGing are basically to have a good story line, lots of puzzle-like situations where creative solutions can work, (I am an adventure gamer) a bit of combat, and a good share of freedom over my character's creation and what I do with him/her/it. :) If you wanted to put me in the GNS system (yeah, I know it doesn't exactly work this way,) I would come out as Narrativist/Simulationist/Gamist in descending order of my decisions, though the decisions between the first two would be very close.

I do believe we all (this goes for every RPGer out there) that we get too serious with our games sometimes, and of course, this creates conflicts. I try to keep the opinion constantly in mind of "it's just a game." Sure, it may be one I can spend a good 14+ hours a week messing with depending on the situation, but it is still just a game like basketball or football or anything else any other person might put their time into. Extreme obsession with anything is bad.

Charly has told me that he would like to do further posting, and he will, as soon as he gets his computer set up again. (He moved.) Throwing Jesse's ideas in here would also be of great help.

Cody in his MWing with us does have a very strong Simulationist element in it, and the way Cody portrays it many cause the similarities I saw between his style and yours. Cody has done a lot of wargaming, so he will be influenced by it, introducing a gamist element. I could be wrong, but Cody may be under the use of winners and losers in his campaigns, with him actually playing in a Character-Hostile manner. During play, it didn't exactly seem that way, but it is possible.

One final note: I was the one who gave Cody the information to get to the now-destroyed topic. I expected him to respond intelligently and maturely, but apparently that failed. (Please don't hurt me...) :) Also, Avery, you may want to run your posts through a spell checker before posting, I try to do it to correct any mistakes I've made, and I know Eric does on occasion and at other times really needs to. :)

Well, that's all for now. Mae govannen Avery.

Hi everybody,

Let's see if I have the usernames straight ...

Pyron = Eric
(damn, can't remember ... the first of you lot to post here, too) = Charly
Aragorn = Avery
Sage of Shadowdale = Jesse? or is that someone else?
IM Stormkahn = Cody

Correct me where I need it.

It may surprise you, but I am really happy to see all of you here. If you haven't already, please review contracycle's post, above, because he makes some very useful points (his real name is Gareth).

Best,
Ron

I'm really sorry Ron, and I would hope that you respond to my PM, if you got it.

Anyway-

Pyron= Eric, main GM,
Scratchware= Charly.
Aragorn= Avery, has played in RPGs very little (by your standerds I would have played RPGs very little. I'm not saying this to insult him, but to bring a clearer picture of my group)
Sage of Shadowdale= Anthony, auxillary GM (if he takes that title)
IM Stormkahn= Cody
?= Jesse, hasn't come onto the forge yet.

I'm sorry for the chaos that my group has brought to the Forge. I really shouldn't have brought so many concerns to your humble websight, but the majority of us greatly respect here and have found everything here invaluable (directly or inderectly). I hope that I can have some of my players become at least moderatelley active Forge members. I will be more controlling from a moderative concern and keep what should be online online, and what is offline, offling.

Thank you for your understanding.

Chaos? Eric, you guys are providing everyone with a much-needed reality check. Plus demonstrating superb willingness to discuss your hobby and to work out better ways of having fun.

You even all self-moderated when you realized you should, without anyone making a big deal about it.

I'm a happy guy.

Best,
Ron

I believe that we have brought some chaos to the forge, but i do not believe i know everyone that posts here so i can't say that we are also giving people reality checks. I know that since posting here i have however been able to express my opinion about things a lot better then person to person.

Also can anyone help me with a question I have... I have been wanting to try a chaotic evil character in D&D, i was wondering if anyone can tell me exactly what a chaotic evil person does. I already know they are greedy, its always, me, me, me, for a chaotic person, but im not sure how i should make one, or what a good race and class one should be. Not to mention how one should act. Please answer my question.

Aragorn

Hi Avery. PM me. I'd like to go into a messenger about what you ask. It's rather complicated and I think that it would be easier to talk to me, rather than explain the situation over several posts in a new thread.

I would say we brought chaos upon ourselves (and a few others,) and then somehow managed to fix it. Wow, don't we feel special? :) The Forge is a great environment for giving opinions about our great hobby, and it does help to express opinions well, especially when given intelligently.

I tend to stay away from evil allignments myself, you know, due to the evil, but if done in a decent manner it might work for a little while, but I have never seen anything like that work long-term.

Back up a bit - WHY do you wan't to play an evil character?
Bear inb mind that alignment models may not be the best tool; Cyberpunk characters frex are almost all Chaotic Evil by D&D standards. So, what is it that you want out of the character?

I just want to simply try one. I have never seen one played, or seen one made. I just wanted to try it out, see how it is. Chances are i won't stay with evil characters, i have just simply never tried or seen one before. So, like i said, i wanted to know how exatically you make one. What the best race, class, feats, skills, and what abilities scores i should concentrate on.

Aragorn

How do any of those questions apply to playing an evil character. There are no "evil feats" or "evil abilities". The best things to concentrate would depend on your character concept as it does for all characters.

The best way to play an evil character is to come up with a goal. What does the character want. While being "evil" for "evil's" sake may be fine for cartoons it shouldn't be the basis of an evil character campaign. If it is its just an excuse to be more of selfish murderous looting pillager than most hack and slash characters are anyway.

I've played in two ongoing D&D campaigns as an evil character.

In one I was a high level Lawful Evil wizard (I had taken on the role of a prominent evil NPC and former villain of our party in mid campaign). The new adventure centered on my primary rival a high level Chaotic Evil wizard. Between us we had ensured that all magic-users in the region were either our apprentices or quickly snuffed out. When the Chaotic Evil wizard (who was also completely insane) made his bid for power with armies of demi-humans and other nastiness pooring out of his wilderness stronghold, the party (led primarily by a Lawful Good Cleric / Paladin pair) needed a wizard to help them stop the threat. I was the only one available and the pact was formed. To sum up the long series of adventures the party got its ass kicked on the highest level of the Chaotic Evil wizard's tower. I had achieved my goal and stopped my rivals neferous plans thereby preserving the balance of power between us. Now that the final fight was going badly, I bailed. In the middle of the climactic battle I fired of a massive damage fireball to cover my escape and teleported out of there. 2 of the good party members were killed outright by my blast and 2 others later died after suffering a nasty hit from me. Was it evil...absolutely. Was it totally in line with the character concepts and goals. Absolutley. Was it one of the most memorable moments of the campaign that rooted forever this guy as being a major villain...absolutely.

In the second campaign I played Tyrie Bloodbow. A thoroughly nasty elf ranger assassin. The campaign was one where a large powerful and quite oppressive (yet "good") Empire had finally succeeded in conquering and pacifying the region. Our party was a cell of the rebel resistant movement (the native freedom fighters) we oppossed the oppression of the Empire which took away our individual liberties and forced everyone to behave "good" to each other or face imprisonment. We were fighting for our ancient rights and traditions to live the way we wanted to live (murdering rapeing and killing each other as its been since the dawn of time). We were basically a party of out in out terrorists and the message we sent to the Emperor was thoroughly evil (after kidnapping his daughter we turned her to stone in the midst of being raped by an ogre...freezing her look of horror and pain for eternity). Evil yes...but entirely in keeping with our roll as terrorists with magic abilities at our disposal...We also waged war against the halflings whose fields kept the Empire fed. A 100 mile stretch of high way was boardered by impaled halfling corpses. We were evil. It was one of the most incredible campaigns we'd ever played. Thoroughly sick, but thoroughly illuminating.

In my opinion if you aren't really interested in delving into your personal darkside and using your evil character to see just how sick and twisted an individual you might be in different circumstances...than playing an evil character just to have the word "evil" listed on your character sheet is a complete and utter waste of time.

i know there is no "evil" feats or "evil" abilities. I am just wondering how to make a good evil character. here ill start it:

Elf
Fighter
Male

thats what i want the race and class to be, now im wondering what are good feats for an elvin fighter, and what abilities I should concentrate mostly on for an evil elvin fighter. I know strength, Dexterity, and Constitution, but will i need any in the others, and if so what should be the next one that most important, then the next important, and finally the least important. For instance if i rolled for my ability scores and got:

18
17
15
15
12
8

what should i put those into. I just mainly need help in making the character the best it can be so i can accually put up some resistance in things, but then again, i have only played two D&D campaigns and was a wizard in both, so of course i don't have the feeling of "high and mighty" as one might say.

THen i was wondering what feats i should get. i know for sure i want to be able to have 2 handed fighting, so i know i need abidextrious, and two handed weapon proficiancy, but what else?

Aragorn

Waste of time BTW. If you want to use two weapons you want to be a Ranger. While this is all very interesting I think that we should define the parameters for this thread.

Aragorn wrote: I am just wondering how to make a good evil character.

Aragorn you're not getting it. And I don't know that many people are really interested in helping you stat out a character, there are probably better sites where people can tell you what combination of feats will let you kick the most ass.

NONE of that has ANYTHING to do with being evil or being good. Forget stats, forget feats, forget all of that mechanical nonsense. Alignment is about morality.

Go back and read my post and Ravens. THAT is what you need to focus on if you want your evil character to be something more than a regular guy with the word "evil" at the top. And you better be sure your GM and other players WANT to play in an evil campaign. Being an "evil guy" in a regular campaign rarely works.

Heres a tip to get you started. Think of the campaign world you'll be playing in. Pretend you're going to be GMing it. Create the villain that the party will eventually be facing. Create the evilest, most twisted, most god awful bastard of a villain you can imagine...not just by making him a sick twisted deviant but by identifying what his motives are and why he's willing to do abosolutely anything to achieve them (which is basically what being evil is all about).

Then rewind this guy to the beginning of his history where he's just setting out on the path that will lead him to that state. That's your character concept. Point him out however you want. As you play him, keep that ultimate vision of who this guy may one day become in your head and explore what kind of choices he made now that will get him there.

CONCEPT not stats.

If you persist in trying to define evil by his stats you are completely wasting your time.

ah, ok. I see now. Like i had said in previous posts, i had never sen one made or played, so i wasn't sure if any of those things; stats, abilities, feats, had anything to do with it, i just wasn't sure.

I want to make an evil character for the very reason that i have never seen one played or made. I just want to test it out, chances are, i won't like it and i will go back to my lawful neutral good characters.


Aragorn

While the debate over Evil characters is potentially interesting, it is not Actual Play material.

Perhaps it would be for the best if this discussion were suspended, or taken to a different forum, until some Actual Play has taken place and can be commented on.

Very true, Seth (and Eric), and thanks for reigning us in!

Avery, play for a while and then start a new thread to give us your impressions about what worked and what didn't in play. If your character "felt" evil, how it affected the group dynamics at the table (among players, not characters), and if the system you used let you really explore the actual concept you're going after (I don't know if you're looking for an anti-hero or a wolf-among-the-sheep, or much of what you envision for this character, so take your goals into account during your reply).

you got it,


Aragorn

Greetings all. I am at Eric's house right now if you are wondering how I got on the internet.

Adding to Anthony's statement, my campaign has been sitting on my harddrive for 2.5 months. I would like the chance to run it, but anymore there are way too many people starting campaigns and they end up being wasted due to their lack of knowing what they are doing. 2.5 months is as far as I know, the longest time anyone in our group has prepared for a campaign.

Something I have gathered from some of the players lower on the roleplaying scale in our group is that evil characters are fun. I agree that evil characters such as the Sith in Starwars are very interesting but they make for player-killers which leads to, of course, player-killing and utter chaos. You never see a group of Sith walking around do you? Evil characters are just that, evil. Evil characters cannot work together, they do not have the kindness or patience to be around others. They are full of hate and arrogance. Having an evil character as well as good characters in a campaign does not work. In most campaigns, the players are in a party, not running around in a chaotic free-for-all trying to kill each other.

Avery, the question you are looking for is: How do I maximize/munchkinize an evil character?
That is the step after this. You need to first create a concept for your character first. Develope a personality and a background. Try to make it interesting, then fit your ability scores and feats around that to make a character that is consistant with itself.

I will post more of my ideas later. Bye.

Scratchware wrote: How do I maximize/munchkinize an evil character?

Hello,

People - please take the "evil character" discussion to a new thread in RPG Theory.

Best,
Ron