Topic: Player or Character driven - is there a difference?
Started by: Jeffrey Miller
Started on: 12/18/2002
Board: GNS Model Discussion
On 12/18/2002 at 9:51pm, Jeffrey Miller wrote:
Player or Character driven - is there a difference?
Caution - slight GNS content follows, but feel free to expand.
In a seperate thread, Alan Barclay posted:
Player-driven. ( I believe there's no difference, but I don't want to shift the discussion.) I highly recommend trying InSpectres, Trollbabe, or OctaNe for an introduction to this.
I see a difference - character-driven is when the story/plot/events is/are prompted forward by decisions based upon the directive/knowledge/desires of the characters, while player-driven is based upon the directive/knowledge/desires of the players, which can be quite different (and more harmonious *grin*)
On 12/18/2002 at 9:57pm, Andrew Martin wrote:
Re: Player or Character driven - is there a difference?
eogan wrote: I see a difference - character-driven is when the story/plot/events is/are prompted forward by decisions based upon the directive/knowledge/desires of the characters, while player-driven is based upon the directive/knowledge/desires of the players, which can be quite different (and more harmonious *grin*)
I don't know about being more harmonious for players. I'd think that a character-driven plot by a sane character (as roleplayed by the player) would tend to be harmonius, and that player-driven plot would be more "interesting" in the chinese sense. :)
On 12/18/2002 at 10:04pm, Jeffrey Miller wrote:
RE: Re: Player or Character driven - is there a difference?
Andrew Martin wrote:eogan wrote: I see a difference - character-driven is when the story/plot/events is/are prompted forward by decisions based upon the directive/knowledge/desires of the characters, while player-driven is based upon the directive/knowledge/desires of the players, which can be quite different (and more harmonious *grin*)
I don't know about being more harmonious for players. I'd think that a character-driven plot by a sane character (as roleplayed by the player) would tend to be harmonius, and that player-driven plot would be more "interesting" in the chinese sense. :)
Hmm, I should expand and see if you still think so. I'll going to use a recent situation that cropped up in Dust Devils to illustrate, not to disect the situation in specific. Everyone made their character, but there was no meta/social-agreement on who's devil was at what "setting" (FYI: you set the level of impact your devil is to have on the session on a scale of 1-3) Every devil that I became aware of during the game was an antisocial one, forcing players apart.
Character-driven perspective demands that players play to the devil's insistence against interaction, creating 5 stories out of, say, 2 or 3. Fine for short or small groups, I don't think a group of 5 can maintain interest if there isn't reward for all the players at the table with some level of importance or "play time". Playing bit parts and extras in either a narrative, troupe, or jamming sense has never seemed to satisfy people for extended periods, IME.
A player-driven perspective would push more towards coordination of the narrative (little 'n') in such a fashion that may reduce the importance of the narrative drive within the character in respect to the desire or need for a coordinated, synergistic narrative thread.
On 12/19/2002 at 12:55am, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: Player or Character driven - is there a difference?
Hi there,
I'm thinking that maybe some dichotomous-pairing of terms might help. The main thing for me is that I don't see Player and Character as existing as opposing ends of any kind of spectrum.
Character exists, I think, in the same "realm" as Setting, Situation, Color, and System - it's something that we are all imagining together. When the character does something, and when that something makes us all go "Oooh!", then we can talk about that something being character-driven. Same goes for Setting, etc.
A player is a human, and when we talk about something being player-driven, I think, anyway, that the "something" can be expressed in any of the terms above: Character, Setting, Situation, Color, System. It can also be expressed just socially, from Bob to Jane, without game-stuff, but I'm pretty sure that's out of the range of the thread-topic.
So if something isn't player-driven, then what drives it? GM? But I guess I was figuring "the GM is another player" for purposes of this discussion. My point is that I have a hard time imagining how anything is driven, in role-playing, except the direct action of a real human agency.
And how is that something expressed, in-play? Through one or more of the five things I listed; that seems easy to me.
Damn. I fear that I just muddied things rather than clarifying them. If so, please ignore.
Best,
Ron
On 12/19/2002 at 2:16am, cruciel wrote:
RE: Re: Player or Character driven - is there a difference?
eogan wrote:
I see a difference - character-driven is when the story/plot/events is/are prompted forward by decisions based upon the directive/knowledge/desires of the characters, while player-driven is based upon the directive/knowledge/desires of the players, which can be quite different (and more harmonious *grin*)
I must be missing something...is the question: are Actor and Author stance different?
On 12/19/2002 at 2:26am, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: Player or Character driven - is there a difference?
Hi there,
Yeah, good point, Cruciel. As laid out in the passage you quoted, that's pretty much Actor and Author stance right there.
Thing is, as I see it, stance isn't a hugely-important, driving element of "stuff in play." It contributes, it's not trivial, but it's not overwhelming. So my sense, anyway, is that Eogan is talking about something "bigger," even though how he's describing it does sound, pretty precisely, like stance.
Or I might be totally all wet about that. Awaiting further clarification.
Best,
Ron
On 12/19/2002 at 2:54am, Andrew Martin wrote:
RE: Player or Character driven - is there a difference?
Actor and Author stance is what I was thinking of.
On 12/19/2002 at 3:56am, Alan wrote:
RE: Re: Player or Character driven - is there a difference?
eogan wrote: In a seperate thread, Alan Barclay posted:
Player-driven. ( I believe there's no difference, but I don't want to shift the discussion.)
I see a difference - character-driven is when the story/plot/events is/are prompted forward by decisions based upon the directive/knowledge/desires of the characters, while player-driven is based upon the directive/knowledge/desires of the players, which can be quite different (and more harmonious *grin*)
I was thinking that the character only exists in the mind of the player. The player chooses his method of deciding what action to describe for his character. He may attempt to restrict his decision to information, drives, and goals of his imaginary character, or he may take the needs of the real world into account, the needs of the game system, what sort of story he wants, etc.
As a result, any action the character takes is action the player conceives of. I think this is important to keep in mind, because it is the player's enthusiasm for whatever he's doing that drives his play.
On 12/19/2002 at 7:52pm, M. J. Young wrote:
RE: Player or Character driven - is there a difference?
I'm wondering whether this is an effort to distinguish between character and player agendae.
In an egregious example, the Psychology Today article which first introduced me to D&D decades ago mentioned that one teenage boy's character was attempting in game to seduce his girlfriend's character. The referee (a psychologist) expressed the view that this was also happening in their relationship. Now, perhaps it could be argued that the character was written with the notion that one of his drives was to sleep with the elf-maid; but it seems more likely to me that this was a player desire expressed through the character.
In Eogan's brief example, I see something like this:
The players would like to play together; having some sort of unified game is more fun for all.
The characters they have created are inherently individualist and anti-social, and would rather not have anything to do with each other.
At this point, bringing them together is either going to require finesse of the highest order (to create a situation in which these characters are forced to cooperate) or an abandonment of the character values and prerogatives in favor of the player desires.
It is a bit like asking whether you can have a Paladin and an Assassin in the same D&D party. Technically, the Paladin can't associate with the Assassin, and would no doubt kill him if he knew the man's profession. But nine times out of ten, this is going to be overlooked by the players because Bob wants to play a Paladin and Bill wants to play an Assassin. Now, I've run some D&D games with this sort of problem (actually, Samurai/Ninja conflict), in which several of the characters conspired to keep the abilities of the one secret from the other. This is a case in which player priorities override character priorities. If character priorities were allowed sway, the party would rip itself apart.
Is that part of the question?
--M. J. Young
On 12/20/2002 at 12:09am, Jeffrey Miller wrote:
RE: Player or Character driven - is there a difference?
Ron Edwards wrote: Yeah, good point, Cruciel. As laid out in the passage you quoted, that's pretty much Actor and Author stance right there.
Thing is, as I see it, stance isn't a hugely-important, driving element of "stuff in play." It contributes, it's not trivial, but it's not overwhelming. So my sense, anyway, is that Eogan is talking about something "bigger," even though how he's describing it does sound, pretty precisely, like stance.
Yes, I think that I'm basing my thought primarily on Stance, but stick with me in case I'm missing the correct terminology. There's a classic conflict that often occurs in games; a player pulls some bonehead move that horks the rest of the PCs, and claims loudly "..but its what my character would do!"
Now sometimes its just an excuse for poor social contract behavior, but sometimes it really honestly is that it is outside the character's motivation and personality to act in a party-/story-/plot-/group-supportive fashion. That, to my mind, is a character-driven action, along with any action that specifically benefits the character. Purposefully acting against the character's narrative drives in the interest of furthering a meta-level concern -- other player's plots, making someone else look good, party cohesion, anything that benefits other players and is possibly detrimental to the character being played -- is a player-driven concern.
I don't think this is solely a dichotomy either - I haven't really had the brainspace to come up with the remaining pieces.
On 12/20/2002 at 12:49am, Alan wrote:
RE: Player or Character driven - is there a difference?
M. J. Young wrote: In Eogan's brief example, I see something like this:
The players would like to play together; having some sort of unified game is more fun for all.
The characters they have created are inherently individualist and anti-social, and would rather not have anything to do with each other.
At this point, bringing them together is either going to require finesse of the highest order (to create a situation in which these characters are forced to cooperate) or an abandonment of the character values and prerogatives in favor of the player desires.
Or abandonment of the assumption that bringing them together is necessary. Since DD doesn't reward clever tactics, or the number of monsters killed, or even survival, there's no meta-game reason for characters to work together. The idea is just a hold-over.
On 12/20/2002 at 7:08pm, Jeffrey Miller wrote:
RE: Player or Character driven - is there a difference?
Alan wrote: Or abandonment of the assumption that bringing them together is necessary. Since DD doesn't reward clever tactics, or the number of monsters killed, or even survival, there's no meta-game reason for characters to work together. The idea is just a hold-over.
Call me old-fashioned, but I don't think that 4-5 unrelated, uninteracting storylines makes for an entertaining evening, but then I freely admit that much of my enjoyment comes from interaction with other PCs. YMMV
On 12/20/2002 at 7:17pm, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: Player or Character driven - is there a difference?
Hi Eogan,
I am very confused ... what is your question?
Actor stance = the character's decision or action originates with the player (the only place it can come from) with the proviso that the player uses only in-character knowledge, concerns, perceptions, etc.
Author stance = the character's decision action originates with the player (ditto), without the proviso.
I strongly suspect that many many people think they are using Actor stance when they aren't, mistaking "in-character role-playing" for Actor stance. Those are not the same things.
But anyway, given these two terms, what's the question? Yes, they are different phenomena. Is that all that you were saying?
If so, then I don't think anyone would disagree. The only thing to point out is that the player is still the source and end-all, no matter what. The only difference is that in Actor stance, the player is voluntarily limiting himself or herself to certain imagined options.
Best,
Ron
On 12/20/2002 at 7:37pm, Jack Spencer Jr wrote:
RE: Player or Character driven - is there a difference?
eogan wrote: Call me old-fashioned, but I don't think that 4-5 unrelated, uninteracting storylines makes for an entertaining evening, but then I freely admit that much of my enjoyment comes from interaction with other PCs. YMMV
YMMV, very true. But you have to think of 4-5 unrelated, uninteracting storylines as like watching television, where during primetime, a person canwatch 4-5 shows easily. It can be a lot like that. If that still isn't what you want, then fine, but looking at it this way, you can at least see something of what others might seem in it?
On 12/20/2002 at 9:16pm, Alan wrote:
RE: Player or Character driven - is there a difference?
eogan wrote: Call me old-fashioned, but I don't think that 4-5 unrelated, uninteracting storylines makes for an entertaining evening, but then I freely admit that much of my enjoyment comes from interaction with other PCs. YMMV
I'll try to clarify. I meant to suggest that we might abandon the belief that bringing all the PCs into a single, cohesive group is necessary for successful play. Even though I discard the necessity of something, doesn't mean I ban it from happening.
This leaves many options: PCs in smaller groups, or groups with devisive motivations, or independant action, or independant action for most of the game, or various arrangments where the PCs oppose each other.
Also, we can take a more sophisticated approach to PC-PC relationships. A relationship map can glue all the players together, so the actions they take independantly are all related. The map itself is a group connected and related by social bonds. When a PC gets involved with one NPC and another PC gets involved at some other point on the Rmap, they are still addressing a common concern.
Finally, we can enjoy watching other players taking their turn in the spotlight. We do this all the time anyway - what difference whether they are techically working together, or just interacting with some part of the same situation or theme? Granted this last part is important - I think it's one of the key elements of RPG play. Different GNS styles find different means to create a unity of player interest.
On 12/20/2002 at 9:24pm, Gordon C. Landis wrote:
RE: Player or Character driven - is there a difference?
eogan wrote: Now sometimes its just an excuse for poor social contract behavior, but sometimes it really honestly is that it is outside the character's motivation and personality to act in a party-/story-/plot-/group-supportive fashion. That, to my mind, is a character-driven action, along with any action that specifically benefits the character. Purposefully acting against the character's narrative drives in the interest of furthering a meta-level concern -- other player's plots, making someone else look good, party cohesion, anything that benefits other players and is possibly detrimental to the character being played -- is a player-driven concern.
Isn't this an example of the classic conflict between a Sim/Character priority and a Narrativist priority? Narrativist's consider the established parameters of a character's motivation and personality to be important, but they are willing to bend the motivations, and/or invent unexpected new aspects of personality, if it serves their story goals. A Sim/Character priority considers such things "bad" - bad roleplaying, bad for the game goals, bad in all kinds of ways.
Personal taste will determine how much and what manner of bending and invention works before the integrity of the Nar story is broken, or how "good" the fit with established character has to be for the Sim to maintain its' "we're doing this right" feel. That's why player's with one priority can sometimes participate in the same game as those with the other.
IMO, this combination is often a good fit, but when it goes bad - ooo boy, it's ugly. This issue can be one of those "push comes to shove" places where you find out if your priority is really on Nar or Sim.
At, least, that's how it looks to me - if that's what's at the core of the player vs. character question, I think it translates to a Nar vs. Sim issue. Others have discussed how Stance might also be a factor, but I don't see that as part of the paragraphs that I quoted.
I think the whole player vs. charcater thing can lead to lots of interesting places, but there are lots of 'em, and we'll need to focus on just one to reach any (however tentative) conclusions. I guess the question for eogan is - have any of the ones here been the one he cares about yet?
Gordon
On 12/20/2002 at 10:15pm, Clinton R. Nixon wrote:
RE: Player or Character driven - is there a difference?
Alan and Jeff,
We need to play some Trollbabe. It addresses this issue incredibly well.
There's an old thread around here - ah, here it is - where Ron explained how to run a game like this well. The two main points were recurring themes and NPCs. After using this technique a lot, the best analogy I can think of for it is the TV show Seinfeld - seriously.
In most episodes of Seinfeld, the four main characters have completely separate story-lines. As the story progresses, though, the same minor characters tend to interact with each of them. The main characters aren't aware of this, and may thwart each other's plans. They often do. At the end of the episode, though, everyone's plots run into each other in a four-plot pile-up, and it kicks ass.
The thing I see happen with my players is that they quickly become very interested in each other's scenes, as NPCs they know are in them, and they learn something about those NPCs from them that they might use later.
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On 12/21/2002 at 7:34am, M. J. Young wrote:
RE: Player or Character driven - is there a difference?
Alan wrote:Quoting me, where I wrote: At this point, bringing them together is either going to require finesse of the highest order (to create a situation in which these characters are forced to cooperate) or an abandonment of the character values and prerogatives in favor of the player desires.
Or abandonment of the assumption that bringing them together is necessary....there's no meta-game reason for characters to work together. The idea is just a hold-over.
Hey, I wrote Multiverser; it is inherent to the system that characters are sent not merely to the four corners of the earth but to entirely different universes, being involved in different stories, entirely different kinds of stories, simultaneously in the same night of play.
eogan wrote: Call me old-fashioned, but I don't think that 4-5 unrelated, uninteracting storylines makes for an entertaining evening, but then I freely admit that much of my enjoyment comes from interaction with other PCs.
I won't call you old-fashioned; much of my enjoyment comes from character interaction as well. I suppose that this divided sort of play demands that the referee create and run more interesting and intricate NPC's. PC's have married several of mine, so I must have succeeded. ;) However, what I found as I began to try this crazy multiple staging idea that was completely unavoidable given the system concepts my partner brought was that everyone became fascinated by everyone else's stories. Sure, you wanted to know whether you were going to make it to the portal to get the princesses safely out before the demons caught you; but you also wanted to know whether Bob and his friends were going to be able to drive the space pirates off the ship, whether Mary and Ralph were going to be able to defend the children from the giants, even whether Bill got the job at the drug store so he could rent a place to live while he tried to figure out what was happening in this seemingly ordinary world he had entered. It's a bit like watching a soap opera--ever story moves forward a bit, and almost every story holds your attention, and you keep coming back to see the next episode of every story. Sometimes the player characters interact, and that's good in many ways; but I've had player characters who found they didn't like each other, or had no common interests, or were working toward incompatible goals, and they just played in the same world and ignored each other. There's nothing wrong with that.
I was addressing Eogan's concerns in the context he presented them, that there sometimes seemed a conflict between player priorities to stay together and character priorities to oppose each other, and he didn't know how to handle these. Obviously, if there are no player priorities to stay together the problem evaporates. That would be my preference in most games. But usually when I'm running D&D or one of the older games, it just works better if the player characters stay together. I don't know Dust Devils; if that game isn't about parties working together and this is a player priority in his games, he's playing the wrong game.
--M. J. Young
On 12/21/2002 at 5:54pm, Matt Wilson wrote:
RE: Player or Character driven - is there a difference?
M. J. Young wrote:
I won't call you old-fashioned; much of my enjoyment comes from character interaction as well. I suppose that this divided sort of play demands that the referee create and run more interesting and intricate NPC's.
Hey M.J.:
In Multiverser, are there any rules about the non-GM players controlling NPCs when they're not in that scene/universe? I tried a little of that in a game I ran recently, and - in my opinion - it worked really well. Jeff (eogan) can tell you whether or not he agrees, but I sensed a positive reaction to it. I think I might make it an "official" rule in what I'm working on.
For Dust Devils, alowing players to control multiple characters might help shape the big web, so to speak. Players now have multiple playing pieces to spread their metagame knowledge.
On 12/21/2002 at 8:20pm, M. J. Young wrote:
RE: Player or Character driven - is there a difference?
itsmrwilson wrote: Hey M.J.:
In Multiverser, are there any rules about the non-GM players controlling NPCs when they're not in that scene/universe?
It's given as a referee tip (there's an appendix of these), and I do it often. It isn't exactly covered by "rules" per se, but rather suggested that one of the ways to keep players involved is to give them minor parts in each other's stories.
This is only one technique that keeps players involved during other players' stories. Some of the others include
• Any plans, designs, or programs they want to initiate they have to put on paper and present to the referee, rather than explaining in detail for the referee to take notes. It is explained that this ensures the details will be recorded as the player intends, and not become clouded by the way the referee happens to jot them--but it also means the player is occupied with his own story in a way that does not for the moment require the attention of the referee.
• In all stories, move quickly through the dull parts and focus on the exciting parts. One of my PC's went through ten months of seminary in about as many minutes; it probably happened over half an hour of game time, in which the other players all advanced their more interesting moments significantly. His part was more of "It's March, you're in class; do you want to do anything else this month? No? O.K., you continue class." Sometimes he did something else, but swiftly the dull part passed, and meanwhile he enjoyed what everyone else was doing.
• Often break on the edge of decision--when the player absolutely needs that moment to figure out what he's going to do next, give it to him. He won't notice that the enemy torpedo is suspended in space for twenty minutes while the other players are doing their thing, if he's pouring over his papers to find out what sort of countermeasures he can use, what contingencies he's got, and what to do if it all fails.
There are, I think, others; these come to mind. So yes, we do get players involved as NPC's in each others' stories; but it's not so often necessary as you might expect.
--M. J. Young
On 12/23/2002 at 4:58pm, Jeffrey Miller wrote:
RE: Player or Character driven - is there a difference?
Ron Edwards wrote: I am very confused ... what is your question?
I don't really have one - I was answering Alan's comment re there being a difference between player & character driven bits (at least, I thought I was!)
On 12/23/2002 at 5:00pm, Jeffrey Miller wrote:
RE: Player or Character driven - is there a difference?
Jack Spencer Jr wrote:eogan wrote: Call me old-fashioned, but I don't think that 4-5 unrelated, uninteracting storylines makes for an entertaining evening, but then I freely admit that much of my enjoyment comes from interaction with other PCs. YMMV
YMMV, very true. But you have to think of 4-5 unrelated, uninteracting storylines as like watching television, where during primetime, a person canwatch 4-5 shows easily. It can be a lot like that. If that still isn't what you want, then fine, but looking at it this way, you can at least see something of what others might seem in it?
Actually I can't. Under your analogy, if I'm playing, say, one of the cops on Law & Order at 7pm, its a long way to sit bored until Star Trek is over at midnight.
I frequently play and have played in games with multiple threads, multiple characters per character, and oodles of locales, all in a single evening, but the core thread running through the game is that we're not there to watch each other do 1-on-1 gaming with a GM.
On 12/23/2002 at 5:06pm, Jeffrey Miller wrote:
RE: Player or Character driven - is there a difference?
Alan wrote:eogan wrote: Call me old-fashioned, but I don't think that 4-5 unrelated, uninteracting storylines makes for an entertaining evening, but then I freely admit that much of my enjoyment comes from interaction with other PCs. YMMV
I'll try to clarify. I meant to suggest that we might abandon the belief that bringing all the PCs into a single, cohesive group is necessary for successful play. Even though I discard the necessity of something, doesn't mean I ban it from happening.
Ah! For some reason that's how I was reading it (that you wished to limit it).
I agree that it doesn't _have_ to happen, but if it doesn't, how do you offer interaction between equals to shine, ensemble play, against watching each other solo with the GM? Jamming and running NPCs is fine, for what its worth, but at some point why not jsut say "Thursday is Alan night, Friday is Mike night, Saturday is Sarah night.."
[Obviously a little hyperbole here, but hopefully you see the point I'm driving towards]
Also, we can take a more sophisticated approach to PC-PC relationships. A relationship map can glue all the players together, so the actions they take independantly are all related. The map itself is a group connected and related by social bonds. When a PC gets involved with one NPC and another PC gets involved at some other point on the Rmap, they are still addressing a common concern.
I use r-maps frequently for my more convoluted structures; heck, I use them for the simple ones, too.. how to get characters (and hence, players) to interact and fulfill the social aspect of the game while they're waiting for their plot devices to fall into place?
Finally, we can enjoy watching other players taking their turn in the spotlight. We do this all the time anyway - what difference whether they are techically working together, or just interacting with some part of the same situation or theme? Granted this last part is important - I think it's one of the key elements of RPG play. Different GNS styles find different means to create a unity of player interest.
Hmm.. I guess the difference for me is that I enjoy Ensemble Play, interaction between equally weighty and developed characters, which requires that players be interacting frequently and at some length to allow relationships to develop between them. YMMV
On 12/23/2002 at 5:12pm, Jeffrey Miller wrote:
RE: Player or Character driven - is there a difference?
Clinton R. Nixon wrote: Alan and Jeff,
We need to play some Trollbabe. It addresses this issue incredibly well.
Well lets go! :)
There's an old thread around here - ah, here it is - where Ron explained how to run a game like this well. The two main points were recurring themes and NPCs. After using this technique a lot, the best analogy I can think of for it is the TV show Seinfeld - seriously.
I'll read it this morning and return with any wisdom gleaned; thanks for the link.
In most episodes of Seinfeld, the four main characters have completely separate story-lines. As the story progresses, though, the same minor characters tend to interact with each of them. The main characters aren't aware of this, and may thwart each other's plans. They often do. At the end of the episode, though, everyone's plots run into each other in a four-plot pile-up, and it kicks ass.
Indeed - sounds like another Year At Tribunal for my ArM players ;)
This is a perfect example, in my mind, of party cohesion - I wish there was a better term, one that isn't laden with the "can a Paladin be in a party with an Assassin?" debate. Each character can (as they choose) interact with the other PCs, engages with them as narrative (little n) equals, and respect is given to their themes, drives, demons, plots, and desires. The point where my understanding diverges is how people seem -- to me -- to be saying that this is not an important part of the social contract or social gaming reward; it must be a YMMV that I don't get, playing characters who have zilch in common or in any way interact.
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On 12/23/2002 at 5:17pm, Jeffrey Miller wrote:
RE: Player or Character driven - is there a difference?
M. J. Young wrote: Sometimes the player characters interact, and that's good in many ways; but I've had player characters who found they didn't like each other, or had no common interests, or were working toward incompatible goals, and they just played in the same world and ignored each other. There's nothing wrong with that.
No, nothing wrong at all, I just don't understand it because its not rewarding to me in any fashion. If I want to watch other people game, I can do that -- the University's main gaming store/centre is a short walk from my place. I freely admit, however, that I'm not interested at all in sitting quietly watching someone else play 1-on-1 with the GM in a story line that in no way is part of anyone else's shared story. Sure, there's always stories that happen in a singular fashion, but week after week, I'm rewarded by my interactions with other players, not by watching other people game.
I was addressing Eogan's concerns in the context he presented them, that there sometimes seemed a conflict between player priorities to stay together and character priorities to oppose each other, and he didn't know how to handle these.
Not quite - I know how to handle them. I was responding to a comment that seemed to not acknowledge a difference between them.
On 12/23/2002 at 5:21pm, Jeffrey Miller wrote:
RE: Player or Character driven - is there a difference?
itsmrwilson wrote: In Multiverser, are there any rules about the non-GM players controlling NPCs when they're not in that scene/universe? I tried a little of that in a game I ran recently, and - in my opinion - it worked really well. Jeff (eogan) can tell you whether or not he agrees, but I sensed a positive reaction to it. I think I might make it an "official" rule in what I'm working on.
We started doing it years ago, picking it up from other people -- "jamming". (Its like that goofy thumb-to-your-head-with-pinkie-extended thing that everyone is doing in Seattle these days to indicate OOC blather in IC moments - I remember doing it 15 years ago, but no way do I think that *I* introduced it locally.)
On 12/23/2002 at 6:19pm, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: Player or Character driven - is there a difference?
Hello,
I think this thread has served its purpose, and if Eogan agrees, it's time to close it.
Some "spawn" issues include (1) running multiple protagonists across separated scenes or even whole stories in a way that keeps everyone in play engaged, (2) aspects or features of Multiverser, and (3) issues surrounding the concepts of in-character and out-of-character (which are not the same things as stances).
I'd appreciate it if people could take these to new threads.
Best,
Ron