Topic: Hidden traits
Started by: Spooky Fanboy
Started on: 12/18/2002
Board: Dark Omen Games
On 12/18/2002 at 7:52pm, Spooky Fanboy wrote:
Hidden traits
Question: what if, in-game the character has a hidden flaw, a secret perhaps not known to the general public or the other PC's? Could that flaw be activated? Or must it be guessed at or discovered in game to activate?
On 12/18/2002 at 8:11pm, GreatWolf wrote:
RE: Hidden traits
There is no provision in Alyria for secret flaws. Part of the point of the game is to have open information flow between the players so that they can play off each other's characters and exercise a measure of Directorial control. This is disrupted by having secret flaws that are revealed by surprise.
To be clear, a certain Trait may be secret from other characters but not from the other players. In Blood of Haven, Victor's Cowardice is an excellent example of such a Trait.
On the other hand, there is provision for a character to develop a new Trait in play. This is a function of spending I/C to buy the new Trait or to adjust the phase of an already existing Trait.
Seth Ben-Ezra
Great Wolf
On 12/18/2002 at 8:19pm, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: Hidden traits
Hi there,
I think there might be some confusion between (1) secrets from one another as players/GMs and (2) secrets among characters, in-game.
It seems to me that secrets among the characters are perfectly acceptable. If my character has a Flaw that none of the others know about, that's cool. I point to the sheet, show the Flaw, and say, "None of your characters know that." So it ain't secret among the real people at all, but you can bet it'll be a cool and charged element among the characters during play.
Does that address the issue at all?
Best,
Ron
On 12/18/2002 at 8:49pm, GreatWolf wrote:
RE: Hidden traits
What Ron said.
Seriously, that is exactly what I mean. The players ought to know everything that's going on, even if the characters are clueless. In fact, if the players know everything, they are in a better position to roleplay clueless characters, as well as introducing interesting "coincidence". I will share an example of this later.
Seth Ben-Ezra
Great Wolf
On 12/18/2002 at 9:47pm, Spooky Fanboy wrote:
RE: Hidden traits
Ah. "Now it becomes clear," said the window-washer.
Well, that's certainly an exercise in player trust. Means when I playtest this puppy, I'm going to have to break out the mature group.
Should be fun. They eat this "good vs. evil, no gray area" stuff up with spoons. :-)
On 12/18/2002 at 10:05pm, GreatWolf wrote:
RE: Hidden traits
I do plan on returning to this topic. Specifically, Spooky, I want to address one potential misconception that you might have about Alyria. I also want to give my example about player-directed coincidence. However, I only have enough time to note that I'm splitting these posts into their own thread.
Be back later.
Seth Ben-Ezra
Great Wolf
On 12/19/2002 at 7:20pm, GreatWolf wrote:
RE: Hidden traits
Okay, I'm back.
First, to address a potential misconception.
Should be fun. They eat this "good vs. evil, no gray area" stuff up with spoons. :-)
One thing that I'd like to note is that, while Alyria does assume a "good vs. evil" duality, it also does so in the context of a grey-scale setting. For example, is the Citadel good or evil? Well, it is somewhat oppressive. It also brings order, stability, and safety to the lives of many people. What about the Ark? The cost of living in the Ark is the loss of individuality. However, the Arkites choose this loss freely, opting to put the needs of the group ahead of their own needs. (And this assumes, of course, that the loss of individuality actually is a bad thing....)
I'm not wanting to debate the issues. Rather, I'm wanting to point out that Alyria is not supposed to divide easily into good and evil groups a la Star Wars. Rather, Alyria is about discerning good and evil (true black and white) in a setting where they can be hard to discern.
Of course, you may already realize this. I just wanted to be clear.
In fact, if the players know everything, they are in a better position to roleplay clueless characters, as well as introducing interesting "coincidence". I will share an example of this later.
That time is now.
One game of Alyria that I played with my group pitted the High Lords of the Citadel against each other. In particular, High Lord Solomon was accused (rightly) of having an affair with Rachel, the wife of High Lord Malo. Malo is a political rival of Solomon and therefore turned this to his advantage by accusing Solomon on the floor of the Council Chamber.
At the same time, High Lord Vladimir was plotting Malo's assassination, since Solomon's political goals matched Vladimir's.
So, all the High Lords were together for a dinner party. Gabrielle (Vladimir's player) states that he is poisoning one of the drinks and then goes over to High Lord Malo (being played by Adiel) to give it to him. Malo takes the glass, but then decides that he doesn't want to drink and gives it to Rachel instead. She drinks.
That night, Rachel died.
Rachel's death gave the game the kick in the pants that it needed. Vladimir had killed the only woman whom he had ever loved. Malo was convinced that Solomon had ordered her killed and intensified his pursuit of Solomon, ultimately challenging him to trial by combat on the floor of the Council. High Lord Strickland was forced to bring order to the situation, and High Lord Gavin was forced to grow up and accept the responsibility of his position.
It was a great game. And it all came about because one player chose to introduce the "coincidence" of the wrong person drinking a poisoned drink.
The characters were clueless until the end, when Gavin figured out what was going on (and Vladimir died, trampled under a unicorn's hooves). However, the players knew precisely what was going on and were better able to create their story because of the knowledge.
I'll grant that this doesn't specifically speak to Traits, but it does explain why I think that keeping information from the players of Alyria is a bad idea.
Seth Ben-Ezra
Great Wolf
On 12/20/2002 at 9:32pm, Spooky Fanboy wrote:
RE: Hidden traits
One thing that I'd like to note is that, while Alyria does assume a "good vs. evil" duality, it also does so in the context of a grey-scale setting... Alyria is about discerning good and evil (true black and white) in a setting where they can be hard to discern.
Oh, I figured that part out. What I like about this game, as well as Paladin, is that it still emphasizes good vs. evil down to the mechanics, and thus encourages the players to make tough choices on behalf of their character. You can't play a passive nihilist in this game and get anything done by passing the buck or whining; you need to get involved.
The characters were clueless until the end, when Gavin figured out what was going on (and Vladimir died, trampled under a unicorn's hooves). However, the players knew precisely what was going on and were better able to create their story because of the knowledge.
I'll grant that this doesn't specifically speak to Traits, but it does explain why I think that keeping information from the players of Alyria is a bad idea.
I agree, but that's why I said I'd have to use this game for the mature players. It's tough at the best of times to sort out IC/OOC knowledge; without reponsible players, forget it! That said, it's also a bit easier in that the GM doesn't have to remember who told what to which player; everyone is responsible for keeping track of who knows what.
On 12/20/2002 at 10:35pm, GreatWolf wrote:
RE: Hidden traits
Exactly. We're on the same page, Spooky. I will be looking forward to hearing a playtest report from you. Hope you and your group enjoy the game!
And I agree on the parallels with Paladin, BTW. I was just given a copy, and it looks very sweet.
Seth Ben-Ezra
Great Wolf