Topic: Getting Paid
Started by: Valamir
Started on: 1/8/2003
Board: Publishing
On 1/8/2003 at 4:50pm, Valamir wrote:
Getting Paid
A topic that's come up alot recently. My question is this...WHY is it so hard to get paid...and I guess a corollary IS is really?
1) All suppliers in all industries who extend credit to purchasers (i.e. carry accounts receivable) deal with the issue of non payment. Is non-payment REALLY a large problem in the RPG industry to a significantly greater extent than it is in other industries or do RPG publishers merely have unrealistic expectations of getting paid for every item. No company that sells product receives payment for every item they ship, that's why they carry "bad debt" reserves and "uncollectable receivables" accounts. Companies estimate in advance how much product they're going to get stiffed for and account for that in their budget. Do RPG publishers actually experience a notably higher level of non payment or do they just do a notably worse job of planning for it.
2) If there is a significantly higher level of non payment, why is that? Is it because there are so few customers (just a handful of distributors and retailers) that publishers have no choice but to put up with the dead beats? If so is that another reason to develop alternative channels of distribution. When selling direct to customers for instance payment is received BEFORE shipping normally. Increasing the level of direct sales would seem to help address this issue.
3) When products are sold in real industries they are usually sold with terms such as 3/60. Meaning you get a 3% discount if you pay within 60 days, and lose the discount if you pay later. Service related industries generally charge late fees for late payment. Do RPG publishers use either of these methods? If not why? Is it because RPG publishers aren't sophisticated enough to use them?
On 1/9/2003 at 2:12pm, philreed wrote:
It's near-impossible to get paid.
I'm still waiting on about $2,000 from an outfit. This is money I should have seen roughly three years ago. Once in 2001 and once in 2002 a token payment of $100 was made to me (for a total of $200 paid so far). This is the reason that anything I do now or in the future will be done very differently. I won't make any deals with outfits I cannot trust 100%. And, as of today, there are only about 3 or 4 companies I trust 100%.
I've tried making arrangements and working deals to get the money owed me but nothing has proven successful. And the $100/year isn't working all that well.
The hardest part is I'm forced, each time I see this outfit posting somewhere calling for submissions or something, to keep quiet. As much as I'd like to ask in public when I'll be paid it just isn't something I'm willing to do. Yet.
On 1/13/2003 at 5:33pm, kamikaze wrote:
Re: It's near-impossible to get paid.
philreed wrote: I'm still waiting on about $2,000 from an outfit. This is
[...]
The hardest part is I'm forced, each time I see this outfit posting somewhere calling for submissions or something, to keep quiet. As much as I'd like to ask in public when I'll be paid it just isn't something I'm willing to do. Yet.
You need to start doing this. You needed to start doing it at most 30 days after you finished your work, not 3 years later. Otherwise you're just letting that company victimize you *and* the new writers they get.
The old ICE management used to say:
"We pay the artists first, and the writers if there's any money left over, because *artists* won't work if you don't pay them."
This is why companies can get away with this.
I'm a freelance programmer. If a company stiffs me on a contract, I call them, then I stop by and make a nuisance of myself, then I get a lawyer to write a letter. So far I've never had to escalate further or make a public nuisance of myself. *NEVER* let someone take advantage of you. Ever. It's not good for you, and they don't learn anything, so they get to keep doing it to others.
Get it in writing, up front. And make sure that contract includes "to be paid in full no later than 30 days after receipt of work", adjusting the time to taste. If they can't afford you now, you can't afford to turn in that work, because they shouldn't be hiring anyone they can't pay.
On 1/13/2003 at 7:05pm, philreed wrote:
RE: Re: It's near-impossible to get paid.
kamikaze wrote:
You need to start doing this. You needed to start doing it at most 30 days after you finished your work, not 3 years later. Otherwise you're just letting that company victimize you *and* the new writers they get.
It wasn't for writing, art, or anything like that. I put together a book that was released by the company in question (this was late 1998 or early 1999 . . . I honestly can't remember at this time). I never saw a dime (the authors and artists on the project were to be paid when I was paid). Luckily the people I was working with on the book are not blaming me for the problem but I still feel guilty about it.
The problem with jumping online and "naming names" when a deal goes sour is that you get branded. This industry seems to frown upon people warning others of potential problems.
On 1/13/2003 at 7:15pm, Paul Czege wrote:
RE: Getting Paid
Hey Phil,
It seems to me you can get action without having to name names by selling your claim to a collection agency.
Paul
On 1/13/2003 at 7:18pm, philreed wrote:
Collection Agency
Paul Czege wrote: Hey Phil,
It seems to me you can get action without having to name names by selling your claim to a collection agency.
Paul
Not a bad idea. I'll check into it.
Thanks.
On 1/13/2003 at 7:20pm, kamikaze wrote:
RE: Re: It's near-impossible to get paid.
philreed wrote: The problem with jumping online and "naming names" when a deal goes sour is that you get branded. This industry seems to frown upon people warning others of potential problems.
Well, sure. And factory owners used to send goons out with baseball bats to break the legs of people who tried to form unions and go on strike. As long as you let 'em get away with it, as long as they can scare you, they're going to keep doing it.
It's not like this is a really hard industry to get published in, or you need the cooperation of other games companies to publish your games. You need access to a printer, and the printers don't care about your branding, because the printer *always gets paid*, or they don't send you your books.
On 1/13/2003 at 9:08pm, Valamir wrote:
RE: Getting Paid
All very interesting, but not exactly what I was hoping for starting this thread.
I'm sure the situation is different for Freelancers getting paid from Publishers vs Publishers getting paid from distributors...if for no other reason that freelancers are generally individuals and Publishers are supposedly companies (even if a Sole Proprietorship).
But with regards to your circumstances in particular Phil, did you have a written contract detailing how and when payment was to be received? If not why? Was it an oversite that you won't be repeating...did the publisher balk at putting it in writing?
On 1/13/2003 at 9:15pm, philreed wrote:
Yes, I did.
Valamir wrote: All very interesting, but not exactly what I was hoping for starting this thread.
I'm sure the situation is different for Freelancers getting paid from Publishers vs Publishers getting paid from distributors...if for no other reason that freelancers are generally individuals and Publishers are supposedly companies (even if a Sole Proprietorship).
But with regards to your circumstances in particular Phil, did you have a written contract detailing how and when payment was to be received? If not why? Was it an oversite that you won't be repeating...did the publisher balk at putting it in writing?
And this is closer to not being paid by a distributor than it is not being paid by a publisher. It's an interesting situation that I'm seeing others fall into.
On 1/13/2003 at 9:33pm, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: Getting Paid
Hello,
I've been surprised at how many role-playing companies don't seem to exercise a "juice" policy. The Apophis Consortium, for instance, charges interest for overdue payments. When I learned about that, I approached my warehouser/invoicer with this idea and was relieved to discover that he already practices it as well, but I'm given to understand that few do.
Best,
Ron