I was struck by a goofy little idea tonight, so I quickly wrote it up and posted it at my website. The URL is:

http://hardcoreroleplaying.homestead.com/avantgard.html

It's basically a really simple mechanic with a thinly veiled, mult-genre premise attached to it. Still, the idea was amusing enough that I wrote five pages for it. If any of you good folks get a chance, take a look at it and tell me what I could do to flesh it out.

Take care,
Scott

Moose baby,

In the topic about Color Wheel in the MMT Forum:

"I tried to think of a cool setting for Color Wheel (the closest I got was "Picasso!" -- a kind of free-wheeling romp through paintings in an art gallery) but nothing really came out of that."

Heh. GMTA. This could also work for a mega-self-referential RPG about RPG's (like a role-playing game based on Greg McNutt's "Gaming Guardians").

Any influence from Heinlein's "Number of the Beast" here? If not, there could be. The "fictional/artistic creations as alternate universes" thing certainly has an appeal - I think your example adventures show nocely the wide range of possibilities there (Orks stalking rpg.net reviewers - I feel guilty, but I had to laugh).

Of course, for some that may be the drawback to such an idea - not enough focus.

Then again, who says you can't take an unfocused generality and add a focused template - say, that's true even in a setting heavy RPG like Talislanta . . .

Lots to think about as I go to sleep.

Gordon C. Landis

Damn, I knew I'd be treading on Sorensen territory with this, I just wasn't sure how. I guess if I'm going to steal from someone, it might as well be from the master. :smile:

I've never read Number of the Beast, but perhaps I'll pick it up.

What do you guys think of the mechanic - everything up front, with no real chance of failure (so long as you're willing to make Concessions)? I've been messing around a lot with the roll and re-roll mechanics that can be used in association with a die pool (Dying Earth did wonders for me), and I'm finding that I kind of like them. It's like an extended die roll, but the storytelling occurs within the die rolling itself, and comes into focus only at the end, once you know how difficult it was to get there.

Take care,
Moose

Sorry for the double post...I'll eliminate this one and write something else useful and thought-provoking.

Hmmm, okay that was a failure. :smile:

Moose

[ This Message was edited by: hardcoremoose on 2001-08-15 11:17 ]

I love it !!

It's the kind of system I was looking for, for my attempt at a very special rpg about a trilogy of French SF books.
The first one was translated in English as "Chronolysis" and was appreciated by Theodore Sturgeon

Basically, the game is about people who travel backwards in time, thanks to computer simulations (for scientific purposes or when there's another need for difficult research). They "fuse" with "ghosts" from the past, and re-live events from the lives of those ghosts. We never know if these Ghosts are real, or if there's just "bugs" in the computers, and this doubt is one of the interesting themes of the book....
Whenever the Chrono-Analyst needs to branch out from these fixed events, there's risk of "reality" ripping, becoming really mad, unreliable and dangerous.

The available roles for the players will be :
- The Chrono-Analyst (the guy travelling to the "uncertain time")
- The "Ghost" (who is, in fact, "haunted" by the Chrono-Analyst)
- Time Monkeys ("free Ghosts")
- Phords (Photonic Computers, who manage the chrono-analysis)
- Prescients (those who travel in time without the Phords)

I played once this game with the RECON rules (yes it was "Jacob's Ladder RPG"), but I'm looking for a system to steal somewhere.

I was thinking of a system where there would be a kind of "stability" number (maybe the only number on the character sheet). The idea of concessions looks like very interesting in this context, and "Avant Guard" is the spark which will inspire me !
Thank you !!

PS :
by the way, did you have a look at R. Sean Borgstrom's "Tree's Heart Dynasty" ? There's also an interesting system of conflict resolution based on concessions (kind of). See : http://www.cs.jhu.edu/~rsean/gaming/tree.htm

PPS :
I've put a link to your site on one of my pages : http://perso.wanadoo.fr/philippe.tromeur/freeform.htm

PPPS :
if someone reads French, here's a link to "Projet Garichankar" (http://perso.wanadoo.fr/philippe.tromeur/projetga.htm), a presentation of my "Chronolysis" RPG "in the works".

Good one, Moose.

I like it. I'd play it. I may even *play* it.

James V. West

P.S. You could endter comic book worlds too...

Hey Guys,

I'm glad you guys find it interesting. I think I'm going to eliminate the Injury Levels rule though. The game is free-form enough that the GM should be able to specify any type of injury he feels is appropriate - up to and including the death of the PC - as a Concession for any possible resolution. The Injury Levels are just words anyway, with no real definition, so why not leave that up to the GM and the players?

Phillippe,

Feel free to borrow or steal anything from my games (but I beg of you, let me know when you do - it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside). And if you're going to link me to a page of yours, why not link my main page? Here's the URL:

http://hardcoreroleplaying.homestead.com/index.html

Of course I'll add your link to my resources pages. Not that you'll earn any hits from me or anything...

Hey Scott,

It's pretty damn inspired. We've had some email about your mechanic for monologues, and hardships that allow for re-rolls, and it was cool the way you presented it, but I think you've used the idea to spectacularly grand effect here as interpretations, and concessions that allow re-rolls in Avant Guard. A few stray comments:

1) I'm not sure I like "Avant Guard" or "Vanguard". They seem static or something...not dynamic enough for what the characters are capable of. Alternate possibilities I can think of are Extended Riff, or Aesthetes, but I'm not sure how much I like those either. I read an article on product marketing a year or so ago that described the concept of identifying and marketing to "early adopters", individuals who set trends that influence others. There's a very expensive database product that's essentially continuously updated profiles of the changing attitudes and interests of hyper-trendsetting individuals. Companies will buy a subscription to it as part of a strategy of product development to be ahead of the curve of what's going to be hot. But I can't come up with a single phrase that captures the essence of that. I think you need a word or phrase that's less like "vanguard" or "avant guard", what the characters are, and more about what they do. They're discoverers and evangelizers of appreciation.

2) I'm not sure the mechanic for opposed interpretations isn't rather awkward. I don't think I'd like it as a player to go through a few rounds of interpretation, influenced by concessions made to the GM or other players, only to have all that work discarded if I ultimately lose the challenge. How about the player to roll the highest number of evens with the initial cast is the winner, but all concessions from subsequent rolls to get all evens by the winner go to the losing challenger. Or perhaps the losing challenger gets to roll his remaining odd dice (which will initially be more than the winner's number of remaining odd dice) each time the winner rolls again in an effort to get all evens, and each time he gets more evens than the winning challenger, he gets the concession.

3) How about an example of plaaaaayyyyy!

Paul

Voila !!

I've put a French version of the basic system of AVANT GUARD on my page http://perso.wanadoo.fr/philippe.tromeur/pgsystem.htm , with links to your site. I still have to make a plug-in for the Chronolysis setting.

I've changed "Interpretation" into "Description" and suggested the difficulty be between 1 and 3, but otherwise, I've kept your text.

the rest of my site, if you're curious http://perso.wanadoo.fr/philippe.tromeur/

Philippe,

Wow, my first international exposure. Thank you sir!

I can't wait to see the Chronolysis material, and in the meantime I'll be throwing up a link to your site from mine.

BTW, if you (or anyone) actually play the game, let me know how it goes.

Take care,
Moose

On 2001-08-15 02:51, Gordon C. Landis wrote:

Any influence from Heinlein's "Number of the Beast" here?

This will probably be rambling. You have been warned.

First off, at some point in here I should comment on how much I like your game. Very very cool. That said...

Avant Guard is a great deal like a novel idea I had long, long ago. In it, the main characters (I'll just call them 'PCs' from here on out) stumbled onto the curious ability to step into works of literature (one could conceivably expand that into other creative mediums). After romping and playing in their old favorites, they noticed little things going wrong, and that led them to finding the existence of the Vandals, who were seeking to drain all the art of its color, life, vitality, characterization, empathy, and what-have-you. Being all art afficianadoes themselves, the PCs of course engaged the enemy.

The PCs found that they could work small changes in the artwork they were in -- very similar to your Interpretations -- but later when they read the book, they'd find their changes had been added to the work. In order to stave off this 'pollution' of the work, they resolved to Interpret rarely, and subtly when they could.

The PCs were also able to enter the works of art within the work of art, finding their way into second, third, fourth and ad nauseum levels 'downward'. An entire universe opened up before them. The obvious question also arose: if all these worlds were works of fiction by a world one tier up, what did that mean for the PCs' home world? Was their author God, the Primum Mobilus, or was their author some geeky college student (me, at the time) -- and did their author get written by a superior author, in turn?

The Vandals in my little world were not art critics, and in fact worked very differently than the Vanguard (I, I might note, love that name). Instead of being from the same baseline reality that the PCs were from, the Vandals' origin were shrouded in mystery, and they went about 'conquering' the worlds of fiction. Instead of moving 'down' into works of art, they could move -sideways- between works of art (in my original concept, once they corrupted a book, they could travel to any book standing next to it in a library or somesuch -- considering how many copies of any given book are in contact to any number of -other- books, this gave them a good deal of flexibility). The Vandals could move down into the 'second tier' of fictional works, but they could not move up into the PCs' 'real world'.

The Vandals' mysterious source was from a fictional book, written by an author from the PCs' world, that described an evil empire capable of jumping from book to book. Having been written, it came to be in that fictional world. Of course, the source of the Vandals was the very book that told the story of the Vanguard and Vandals. How's that for self-reference?

Eventually, the PCs figured out how to bring things from the fictional worlds into their world -- I think originally I was thinking of a character who fell in love in some Victorian novel, and yanked his love interest 'home' with him. Unfortunately, the Vandals noticed, and recognized their opportunity to invade the world superior to their own. The PCs could be forced to bring them across. The PCs became the targets of this vast, multi-world conspiracy and conquering army. Sure, they could simply step away and never enter another book again, but if they did that, the Vandals would destroy everything they held dear...

I remember I wanted to start the novel: "We met in Sense and Sensibility, one of the brick shithouses of characterization and tone..."

In any case, that's my rambling post. Perhaps you could use this, or elements of this, as context for Avant Garde.

Peace Out!

Cool! Hey Scott - these "Concessions" - wouldn't you say they are sort of like...sacrifices?

Best,


Jim

Hell yeah they're sacrifices...

Ebb and flow, right?

Ebb and flow...

Wait until you see the next system I'm dredging up...similar to this one, but inverted, and predicated on the idea of purposeful risk and sacrifice (the GM doesn't decide these Concessions for ya').

Hey guys (especially Philippe),

I finally got the links up to the French version of Avant Guard and Chateaubriand. I have yet to do the editorial work the game itself needs, but something is better than nothing.

Thanks everyone for all the feedback,

Moose