Topic: Copyright and references to RPGs
Started by: clehrich
Started on: 1/19/2003
Board: Publishing
On 1/19/2003 at 5:14am, clehrich wrote:
Copyright and references to RPGs
This is from the "watershed games" thread, where Ron Edwards wrote:
As for solutions, the only way is to open up the culture of the hobby to wider understanding. There are so many avenues to do this ... one of them is the Forge itself, I hope, and others include getting some insitutional memory into game texts (I was really happy to see other role-playing games casually referenced in several places throughout Godlike), and the basic issue, as you very rightly state, is to get some quality time in with a variety of play experiences.(Emphasis mine)
It's worth pointing out that a lot of gamers out there believe that they can't refer to, say, AD&D, by name, in a printed text for sale, without being sued.
I have been known to claim that so long as one (1) gives full publication information, (2) makes clear what if anything one is using from the published game, and (3) that used content is within "fair use," which is to say not much, then there can't be any copyright issues. This is based on how things work in other areas of publishing, though, not RPGs.
Is there anyone out there who can answer this authoritatively? I can't imagine that a game publisher could win a suit against someone who referred to their game, by name, giving full credit and publishing data. But maybe I'm naive.
On 1/19/2003 at 6:40am, John Kim wrote:
RE: Copyright and references to RPGs
Wizards of the Coast was sued by Palladium Games for publishing conversion notes for the Palladium house system with one of their early products ("Knights" , perhaps?). This was prior to the Magic: The Gathering explosion when WotC was a small company, and they backed off and settled rather than taking it to court.
By the way, I have collected what I know about games and copyright at http://www.darkshire.org/~jhkim/rpg/copyright/ .
The problem is that copyright at all for games is rather murky, and small-press publishers especially are unlikely to take anything remotely resembling a risk for no clear gain. In more established fields it is more clear what you can and can't get away with. In gaming, cases like the above or like TSR's charges against GDW over "Dangerous Journeys" cause publishers to be wary.
On 1/19/2003 at 3:52pm, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: Copyright and references to RPGs
Hello,
This issue has been kicked around in this forum a few times.
I'm on record, many times, encouraging game authors to use appropriate citations of other games, especially in terms of acknowledging influences. Whether my advice is risky, I don't know.
The parameters I encourage include:
1) Do not present the actual rules of the other game, quote from its text, or otherwise reference much beyond its title or a very general principle; e.g., Godlike references L5R and Vampire in the section where the term "dice pool" is used.
2) The reference should be positive; e.g. "The game Dark Conspiracy provides many examples of demonic technology," in a section in Sorcerer which outlines certain ways to define sorcery. Absolutely no direct comparisons of quality should be made, either among references or between references and the game they're in.
3) Ask permission from the publishers for any usage beyond the above, and ideally, in all cases. (I don't meet that ideal, but I have definitely asked permission in some cases.)
I'm not a lawyer and the following is not legal advice. It is, however, the policy taken by Adept Press. I have a letter all set, drafted by legal eagles, for anyone who takes issue with my references in my games. It challenges the idea that my usage carries any conceivable cost to the referenced property. I've done some investigating into how these things are handled in other businesses. Given that the usage matches my parameters above, a "cease and desist" letter-sender tends to back down real fast when they get the legally-solid "cease and desist what, bonehead" letter back. So far, I haven't had to use it.
The above does not apply at all when (a) unfair usage (e.g. rules-text without permission) and (b) vindictiveness (which I think is demonstrably the case in the Gygax/TSR example) are involved.
Best,
Ron
On 1/19/2003 at 7:34pm, quozl wrote:
RE: Copyright and references to RPGs
John Kim wrote: Wizards of the Coast was sued by Palladium Games for publishing conversion notes for the Palladium house system with one of their early products ("Knights" , perhaps?). This was prior to the Magic: The Gathering explosion when WotC was a small company, and they backed off and settled rather than taking it to court.
It was The Primal Order and the Palladium conversion notes were written mostly by me. Sadly, WotC followed all of Ron's parameters except one: they didn't ask first. So, to be sure of not being sued, do ask first and get their answer in writing.
On 2/13/2003 at 1:42pm, btrc wrote:
Citing other games
I concur that *asking permission* is the best possible tactic. If they don't want to give it, screw 'em...
Seriously, for BTRC's 3G3 product, we included weapon conversion guidelines for about a dozen separate game systems (Hero, GURPS, Traveller, etc.) and got permission to use name, logos and game terminology pretty much just by asking nicely. The companies had a particular way they wanted their IP mentioned (X is a trademark of Y and is used with permission), but that was about it.
It didn't hurt that I had done playtesting or freelance work for some of the companies, but this was not always the case. Having a professional-looking sample of what I had in mind also contributed to the cooperation, I suspect.
Most game companies (especially smaller ones) are not anal-retentive about this, and you're just better off not dealing with the ones that are. An unnamed company whose main product is a D&D ripoff but who gets huffy if anyone "infringes" on "their" work comes to mind.
Greg Porter
BTRC games