ok... so is aging an instant aging, IE if someone ages 7 months, do they have to deal with 7 months of hair growth, and all the nasty stuff that comes with it.........or is it taking those months off of your total life span?..

like a character who is supposed to live to be 70, casts a huge spell and screws up, he ages 8 months.....would that mean his current life expactancy is 69 years and 4 months?

I would think that you would just keep track of a character's actual age and their apparent age. So you have a character that was born August 5th, 1967. Until he casts a spell that causes him to age, you have listed his birthdate and 35 in both actual age and apparent age blocks. If he casts a spell that causes him to age 7 months, then you mark down 35 years 7 months in the apparent age block.

As far as life span works, a character dies of old age when one of their attributes reaches 0 through aging (see book 5, The Laws of Nature), so how would even the GM know what the life span of any character is unless you’ve pre-rolled all of that secretly?

lol, i have no clue, im trying to figure things out... like i said though...immediately aging 7 months, do you age in real terms?, like does your hair and nails show 7 months of growth?... wonder what jake or ron thinks

prophet118 wrote: lol, i have no clue, im trying to figure things out... like i said though...immediately aging 7 months, do you age in real terms?, like does your hair and nails show 7 months of growth?... wonder what jake or ron thinks

Shadeling wrote:

prophet118 wrote: ...immediately aging 7 months, do you age in real terms?, like does your hair and nails show 7 months of growth?

I am pretty sure the sorcery section says so..that is how I've played it. Makes sense since you are physically aging that amount.

Stephen wrote:

Shadeling wrote:

prophet118 wrote: ...immediately aging 7 months, do you age in real terms?, like does your hair and nails show 7 months of growth?

I am pretty sure the sorcery section says so..that is how I've played it. Makes sense since you are physically aging that amount.

It indicates in the rulebook that your hair and nails do grow, though that's more out of "colour" than actual scientific consistency; realistically, if your metabolism was accelerated to that degree by the imperfect spell, you'd die of dehydration, starvation, AND oxygen deprivation from any spell that aged you even one month. But this is magic, so you don't need perfect scientific consistency, after all.

Personally, I don't use the hair and nails thing; aging's visible signs are subtler and harder to notice until you've lost a lot of it....

I use hair and beard growth as color all the time. Sure, it isn't really feasable, but it *does* explain why wizards always have long beards. =)

As for the rest, I'm with Tony (Durgil).

Jake

(looks up, mumbles)

I just do what Jake says.

Best,
Ron

well obviously the reasons behind this thread are because one of my players did age 7 months, and got a little peeved that he had 7 months of beard and hair and nails, my main thought though is of course the hunger part...

course this player kinda asked for it, casting a CTN 7 spell with a sorcery pool of like 6......an total pool of 6....in other words, 6 dice to divide between the 3 areas

prophet118 wrote: course this player kinda asked for it, casting a CTN 7 spell with a sorcery pool of like 6......an total pool of 6....in other words, 6 dice to divide between the 3 areas

7 months in one shot I'd do alot more than hair and nails. I think your spot on to note the hunger. I'd be dropping physical stats like crazy reflecting the concentration camp physique he'd likely to have at the end of 7 months with out eating. Technically, it would also be 7 months without physical activity either, so the actual number of calorie equivelents that would be used over the time would be much less (which is what would prevent actual death from starvation IMO), but he'd still look like a wretched island castaway in my game.

Of course, one could make the same arguement about water and oxygen too, but as someone pointed out, it is magic so you have a little room to play in that regard.

Aging isn't supposed to be a non event...especially 7 months at once. I imagine it would be quite painful and should leave the caster virtually impotent...at least temporarily.

I gathered from Jake's reply, that the hair and nails stuff was just for show. I take the aging thing to be more like aging on the inside, like the told my 57 year old Father-in-law, "you've got the arteries of a 90 year old. At worst, I think that the most obvious thing that could happen is to suddenly have a big streek of white through their hair like they have seen a ghost or suddenly have a large tuff of it fall out. I most definently would not go into starvation/dehydration bit, but TRoS does have chances for the spell caster to be knocked out if they age too much at once.

TRoS does have chances for the spell caster to be knocked out if they age too much at once.

knockdown or knockOUT? you got me confused as to which you are refering... I beleive knockout is teh appropriate stat.

Brian Leybourne wrote:

prophet118 wrote: course this player kinda asked for it, casting a CTN 7 spell with a sorcery pool of like 6......an total pool of 6....in other words, 6 dice to divide between the 3 areas

Three areas? You've confused me (which isn't that hard really, I'm probably just being dense). Casting and Aging... what's the third thing to assign dice to?

Brian.

Valamir wrote: 7 months in one shot I'd do alot more than hair and nails. I think your spot on to note the hunger. I'd be dropping physical stats like crazy reflecting the concentration camp physique he'd likely to have at the end of 7 months with out eating. Technically, it would also be 7 months without physical activity either, so the actual number of calorie equivelents that would be used over the time would be much less (which is what would prevent actual death from starvation IMO), but he'd still look like a wretched island castaway in my game.

Of course, one could make the same arguement about water and oxygen too, but as someone pointed out, it is magic so you have a little room to play in that regard.

Aging isn't supposed to be a non event...especially 7 months at once. I imagine it would be quite painful and should leave the caster virtually impotent...at least temporarily.

Ashren Va'Hale wrote: knockdown or knockOUT? you got me confused as to which you are refering... I beleive knockout is teh appropriate stat.

heres my question, how do sidhe (i refuse to spell is siehe..lol), react to aging?

they are supposedly immortal, but i reac (i think in the book) that they still age

It talks about that in the book. Basically, they don't age naturally (after they reach a certain age, one presumes, or else there would be a lot of babies in faerie) but can still age through magic.

Those that look old may be scoffed as being careless and reckless with magic, or they may be revered as mighty sorcerers, depending on who the onlooker is.

Brian.

thanks... i remembered reading it, but one of my players asked me today what was the draw backs of a siehe sorceror.....i listed them off, and got to the aging, and he said "oh im immune to that"......i got a bit confused, though i stuck to my guns, and said "no i dont think you are, at least not magical aging"

prophet118 wrote: thanks... i remembered reading it, but one of my players asked me today what was the draw backs of a siehe sorceror.....i listed them off, and got to the aging, and he said "oh im immune to that"......i got a bit confused, though i stuck to my guns, and said "no i dont think you are, at least not magical aging"

definately need to get some of the books........can i safely assume that "of beast and men" would sorta be like the monster manual of this game?

I would definitely say demons wouldn't have to worry about aging!

prophet118 wrote: definately need to get some of the books........can i safely assume that "of beast and men" would sorta be like the monster manual of this game?

lol, cool

Hunger doesn't make much sense to me. If hunger, why not thirst? As already pointed out, if the aging means that you've effectively gone without sustenance for that period then even a month's worth would kill you instantly.

Going without water for as little as a week is fatal. The aging I saw more as a magical effect, a drain on the body, not as an actual acceleration of time for the caster.

On the roleplaying of the effect, it seems to me that knowing you've just lost some of your youth and life would be pretty traumatic. Unless:

(a) you're drive to accomplish your goal is such that you entirely accept the loss of your own life to achieve your end; or

(b) the fact you'll just get another character means you don't care about this one dying off since you get to do really cool stuff while he's still alive.

(b) is a lousy reason. I'm sure there are others, but to face aging with equanimity it strikes me one of those two is the most likely.

Balbinus wrote: The aging I saw more as a magical effect, a drain on the body, not as an actual acceleration of time for the caster.

Ooh, ooh, me too me too!

Jake

lmao, well if i can think of any other age questions, i'll add them here... this is probably it though, thanks

Just FYI I've added this thread to the index. I think this is the first time we've ever discussed the actual mechanics of sorcery-related aging.

Shadeling wrote: I would definitely say demons wouldn't have to worry about aging!

Aaron wrote:

Shadeling wrote: I would definitely say demons wouldn't have to worry about aging!

Which sounds perfectly reasonable to me...Same could probably be said then about Legendary warriors who have vagaries & Sp..
But does that mean these guys have effectively got a higher Spell Pool than the numbers suggest? Since they probably don't have to worry about aging, can put all their dice into casting spells and summoning mana with impunity?
Now what about a demon that has been implanted in a person. If they cast spells do you think that the host would age?
Aaron.

that was similiar to a post made a while back, about some guy putting his aging into other people.....gross as well

Brian Leybourne wrote: That's exactly as I have always viewed it. The stresses on the body cause it to age, but you have not physcially experienced a swift passage of time. Thus fingernails, hair, growth of wrinkles and grey hairs etc occur, but the meal you just ate is still digesting in your stomach and a disease or virus you may have contracted has not developed any further in your body because time itself has not passed, you've aged independantly of time.

Stephen wrote:

Brian Leybourne wrote: That's exactly as I have always viewed it. The stresses on the body cause it to age, but you have not physcially experienced a swift passage of time. Thus fingernails, hair, growth of wrinkles and grey hairs etc occur, but the meal you just ate is still digesting in your stomach and a disease or virus you may have contracted has not developed any further in your body because time itself has not passed, you've aged independantly of time.

Fingernails, hair, wrinkles and grey hair are the products of cellular life processes, and the cellular life processes that produce these results are inherently linked to the biological processes of the body as a whole. If you have "aged a month", your biosystem has effectively gone through one month's activity in the space of a few seconds -- and if the physical output of that accelerated activity is visible in growing hair and nails, then the physical input would logically be required.

What you need is an explanation of why magic accelerates some very few specific biosystems as if time has literally passed (the surface epidermis), and weakens others equivalent to that amount of entropy without actually increasing the speed of their biological processes -- which opens up all the questions as to why sorcerers don't starve/dehydrate to death after 1 month's aging.

(Unless, of course, the flow of magic itself is what sustains the body's energy input needs during the moment of spellcasting. Which leads to an interesting question: if the entire biosystem "ages" as if it has passed through one or more months' time of living, would a wounded sorcerer effectively heal his wounds to some degree, because the natural process of healing is accelerated too?)

----SJ "they call me Mr. Twink" B

Quick - reanalysis!

Aging strictly only has the second effect you mentioned - weakening your body as if time had passed.

Somewhere deep in the mists of time, a wizard noticed this, and decided to do something about it - he wove a big ol' spell that made him look older whenever he "aged" from magic, with sophisticated techniques to match the visual aging to the magnitude of the magical damage. But he messed up, and the spell affected *every* wizard, and lasts forever.

In other words, the fingernails, wrinkles, hair; those are just colour. If you really want, you could just have the wrinkles and some osteoporosis, and leave the hair to reveal its newfound greyness / baldness as it grows.

well i have a feeling that jake and ron had in their mind that screwing up on a magic effect would be a bad thing, but what other in game mods would be made to make the character feel that...

"ooh im weak.. oh well"... if you really want to do something else..

the knock out roll seems to be t just resist falling on your ass, it has nothing to do with actually resisting the effects of aging....so by in large it is a reponse roll, your body saying "nope we aint falling out, thats not gracefull"....obviously theres a tax on their system (the magus' body)

so let aging reflect losses to strength/health

would anyone tie that in as a viable secondary option?.......instead of aging, drop those two attributes for about 20-25 minutes?

course what you do is this, look at the spells CTN, then ask the player where he wants those numbers applied to "CTN of 8, ok take away 8 points from among strength, health (and maybe endurance)"

I really think the knockout roll is how well your body is resisting this coming of months upon it. Knocking out is not the same as falling down...though you usually fall down when you go unconcious.

well what i meant with "falling on your ass" is the same as "falling down drunk"..

obviously its not a roll to determine if you fall down, its a roll to try and stave off the horrdenous effects that knock you out if you age.

Stephen wrote: What you need is an explanation of why magic accelerates some very few specific biosystems as if time has literally passed (the surface epidermis), and weakens others equivalent to that amount of entropy without actually increasing the speed of their biological processes -- which opens up all the questions as to why sorcerers don't starve/dehydrate to death after 1 month's aging.

I may have something new to add to this discussion-
My first post on the forum everyone!

I have always liked the analogy of the star that burns brighter burns out fastest. So seem the magic-workers of TROS to me- brighter burning stars, which will burn out faster the more they use the gift.

I'm reminded of Willow for some reason just now- the old women sorceresses battling in the tower. Anyhow, I don't really have any experience playing as of yet, but this is how I see the magic/aging effect so far. Makes some very interesting dramatic questions as a character gets older and weaker as he uses the gift more and more. I see older characters on an adventure sacrificing themselves, knowing their own end is near anyway, to cast a powerful spell that will save their friends yet use up their remaining strength... I see younger characters falling in love then trying to forget that love as they realize their bodies have aged so much that their love would not recognize them or could not possibly return their love... I see a son afraid to go home, looking older than his father.

Maybe I'm way off base here, so if I am, let me know, oh great and experienced ones!

RN3G8 4E wrote: I see a son afraid to go home, looking older than his father.

Jake- this is Matt, by the way. :)

How about this??? A wizard joins a mercenary group- maybe there are a few NPCs in the group. The old wizard seems to be sure to protect one of the middle-aged NPCs a lot. But at a crucial part of the adventure he is killed and the wizard cries or something and there it is revealed! The NPC was his father, although he didn't tell him. The wizard ran away from home when he was a boy because no one understood his powers.

There's a good story in there.

Balbinus wrote:
I think you're applying the scientific paradigm too much. What is a biosystem? This strikes me as similar to those who wonder about the effect of magic on molecular structures, what are molecular structures?

The laws of science as we understand them are unknown on Weyrth or it's Earth equivalents for starters. They may not even apply. To the extent they do apply Magic clearly contravenes them, it makes no sense within science as we understand it.

In mythology and folklore people could suddenly age in the manner the game presents. They didn't then collapse from hunger or mystically heal wounds. They simply grew older. By its nature it is not a rational phenomenon.

Here's how I'll explain it. God allots you a span of years by placing within the clay of your flesh a spark of his divine creative energy. By usurping his privileges over the creation in arrogant fashion without proper protections you draw upon that spark and deplete it. This reduces your span of allotted years and your physical aging is but an external symptom of the spiritual price you have paid for abrogating His creation.

Not a biosystem in sight. No cellular life processes (again, what are they?) Other explanations are possible, but I would argue in a magical system none of them should invoke biosystems or molecules or anything of that sort. It's the quickest way to lose the sense of magic being magical and ultimately it will never make sense in those terms anyway.

My take--

We're trying too hard, here, guys. The "science" clause is in there to give some kind of mutually agreeable for to what is essentially a free-form magic system.

And it *is* magic. Magic is *all* about color...otherwise it's just science fiction. Aging, in all it's forms and results, is color.

Jake

i myself dont have a problem with bearded dudes showing up after aging i just started thinking.... probably horribly about the science side, because if your body ages, then (in theory, since we dont know a damn thing about this in the real world), the rest f the body would burn off what it had in it....but thats going way too in depth... the idea i had posted, was basically that for each month of aging, you would lower their traits on a 1 for 1 basis, giving them the choiuce which stats would go down for that period of time......example: your character ages 8 months, i give you the chance to lose 8 from a few attributes (only the physical ones)...you pick where the points come from, but in the end, you are still weakened, and after that period of time is done, those points can come back

prophet118 wrote: i myself dont have a problem with bearded dudes showing up after aging i just started thinking.... probably horribly about the science side, because if your body ages, then (in theory, since we dont know a damn thing about this in the real world), the rest f the body would burn off what it had in it....but thats going way too in depth... the idea i had posted, was basically that for each month of aging, you would lower their traits on a 1 for 1 basis, giving them the choiuce which stats would go down for that period of time......example: your character ages 8 months, i give you the chance to lose 8 from a few attributes (only the physical ones)...you pick where the points come from, but in the end, you are still weakened, and after that period of time is done, those points can come back

im just trying to get some way to let people know that they are weakened.....i mean come on, how are you going to tell a new player (or an old one) that you aged, and even though you resisted knock out, you are still weak?.......theres nothing to really represent it stat wise, its been my experience that people respond to stat penalties quicker than a simple roleplaying one

prophet118 wrote: im just trying to get some way to let people know that they are weakened.....i mean come on, how are you going to tell a new player (or an old one) that you aged, and even though you resisted knock out, you are still weak?.......theres nothing to really represent it stat wise, its been my experience that people respond to stat penalties quicker than a simple roleplaying one

there is a difference though, between rolkeplaying something the ST/DM/GM tells you.... like some people go "oph well my character wouldnt be winded, he has such a high enduraance" or whatever... but giving the player something that can visually see, sometimes helps..i already know the idea isnt going to work, i didnt get any responses about it last time, and this time, it went over about as well as a hand grenade in a barrel of oatmeal........so..

Currently, in-game, you roll knock out and you age. Any additional negative effects on magic use are either (a) agreed on by Seneschal and players or (b) the sole choice of the player. It would be reasonable to invent a flaw that caused the kind of after-effects you all are talking about and put it up "for sale" to wizards.

Jake

the thing that gets to me is this, obviously there is no way to resist aging once you screw up......and yes, i do know that the knock out roll is to resist actually being knocked out, but obviously as the book reads, they are still very weak.....im just looking for an in game way to document that....as is "oh, i aged, who cares."...

if you take off of peoples life spans, no one cares, you tell them instead they are weak because the rules say so, they'll shrug and say whatever, you lessen attributes......maybe even lessening them for the length of minutes/hours equal to the CTN....not sure how low, but it could work as well.......that would give them some understanding of how bad off they are