I just brought something like this up on the DPG mailing list. The idea was pretty much rejected by most who responded.

I would be willing to volunteer to help with this. I've already done research on this and have some ideas to go about doing it.

In my ~24 hour GenCon trip last year (I don't recommend anyone else fly in late Friday night and leave very early Sunday morning) I made a point of swinging by the booth and congratulating you on your award. I thought you guys were doing a great job with the booth.

Hi Phil,

Um, yeah. I remember that. (Or I will when I get the foot out of my mouth ...)

Anyway, your offer to participate is greatly appreciated. Let me know what you'd like to help with.

Best,
Ron

I'm most interested in working on a catalog of products. I think this would benefit many of us. While I'm not exactly doing independent RPG work (but I have released a PDF card game and have plans for more of them) I can say that I'm publishing PDFs and enjoying it.

I'd like to do a full-color catalog but understand that may not be possible due to cost. What is more likely is to do a B&W through small press co-op. I would do all layout and coordination on a catalog. But how many people would be interested?

I'm not sure if I'll be at GenCon this year (San Diego Comic Con is about the same time and I have to be at that) but I am more than willing to help in any way that I can.

All I really want to say is that Phil Reed is very close to being "Da Bomb" and if this could get pulled together, I think Phil Reed would make one helluva great looking piece.

Shame ya won't be at GenCon, Phil, but alas neither shall I.

I'd love to make something super slick and attractive to draw in people. What I'd like, more than anything, is a catalog that's just a little bit more than a catalog. One that includes a page or two of information on each game, maybe even going so far as to have the basic rules for each game printed so that potential customers get more than just an image and marketing blurb.

A step beyond this would be for the catalog to also include some original supplementary material for different games. This would help ensure that people keep and use the catalog on a regular basis.

But is there anyone out there would would like to be part of such a catalog?

Hi Phil,

I think it's a gimme-question that any of us would like to be part of such a catalogue. The issue is whether enough people get enough stuff to you in time for it to happen. The problem with the issue is that half-a-catalogue is no good; for it to achieve the goal that makes it worthwhile, it needs to represent quite a few people, at the very least everyone at the booth.

Organizing that will have to be up to you, although I'll be the first to say that I'll send ya what ya need for my three games.

Best,
Ron

Hi there,

I just split the above posts from the GenCon 2003 thread. One bit that's lacking, because it was integrated into a post that had parent-thread stuff in it, is my response to Phil that assumed he didn't know what the booth was about.

Let's talk catalogue, though!

Best,
Ron

Material for the catalog is not my concern. My concern is funding.

If we can determine how many would be involved, and how much money we could get, we could figure out all of our options and discuss them. Amount of space in the catalog would, of course, be determined by the amount each individual invests.

To get things going, I could contribute $400 or so to a catalog fund.

Looking back over the parent thread, I see that Jared and Matt Snyder originally proposed the catalogue. I should have been more careful with my splitting.

Anyway, whoever wants to do the catalogue thing, work out how you might do it on this thread. No one has been "chosen" by me as "the guy," nor do I plan on doing so.

Best,
Ron

And I'm more than willing to assist or do. Whatever. I just think this is a tool that would benefit several of us and something that can't be done by one person.

How far in advance would you need to know a product will actually be at the show before you can put it in the catalog? I have several products int he works that have uncertain release dates (they have to be written and printed).

First decision after "Should a catalog be made?" is "Who is project lead?"

All other questions cannot be properly addressed until decisions have been made.

philreed wrote: First decision after "Should a catalog be made?" is "Who is project lead?"

All other questions cannot be properly addressed until decisions have been made.

Matt Snyder wrote:

* What format is it?

Matt Snyder wrote:
* How many?

Matt Snyder wrote:
* Where available?

Matt Snyder wrote:
* How much will it cost?

Matt Snyder wrote:
* Who gets to be in it? (For example, is it Forge Moderators? Forge booth attendees who chip in $100 or more? Any and all Indie RPG creators?)

Matt Snyder wrote:
* Is a fee required?

Matt Snyder wrote:
* What space limitation must be required (i.e. how much stuff can one guy have in the thing?)

As someone interested in putting a game into the catalog but not able to go to Gencon, I like the looks of Phil's idea. What are everyone else's ideas for the catalog?

philreed wrote:
10,000 minimum.

philreed wrote:

Matt Snyder wrote:
* How much will it cost?

I would expect $1,500 to $2,000 should do things. Exact costs, numbers, and size could be decided after we get some idea of how much money everyone can devote to the project.

10,000 is not a very large run for marketing material. If we assume 15 people are involved and we send each person 300 copies for them to distribute at local cons and such, that leaves 5500 copies for GenCon.

And I want this to be something of value to people one year from now. That's why I was saying include things like "lite" versions of games and supplementary material.

As to money, I've already said I'd be willing to put in $400. I understand there are some out there would could only spend $25 or so. That's why space in the catalog would be given out based on amount of money spent. If someone spends $100 on the catalog I expect them to have a larger presence than someone who spends $25.

Something to think about: How much does the booth space cost at GenCon? Hotel? Travel? Food? These are all expenses of having a precense at a large game show. The catalog is just one more expense and, I understand, that it isn't for everyone.

If there will be a catalog in time for GenCon a project lead needs to be selected. That lead's first assignment would be to track down and get commitments from interested parties. The second assignment would be to secure funds. (Does the Forge have a centralized account for cooperative efforts such as the GenCon booth?) Only then can real work begin. Until funds are secured all that can happen is lots of dreaming.

If price is what's making everyone nervous I can think of one cheaper option (and probably more if I think hard about it).

It should be a simple matter to locate a newspaper printer in Indianapolis. We then work with that printer to have a tabloid-sized catalog printed on newsprint. This will be a lot less flashy but a lot cheaper.

In my dark past (god, magazine and newspaper design could be fun at times) we frequently printed tabloid stuff. The cost was always low (I'm remembering $500 for 30,000 copies . . . but we were probably getting a large price break since we printed every week).

We would then need someone capable of driving to the press and picking up the printed tabloids.

These would have a shorter shelf life (newsprint just can't handle light) but they would be cheaper.

Here are my thoughts:

Re a general Indie Catalog:
I think that's a great idea, and one that ideally could be done annually or even semi annually just as a way of getting alot of indie print an pdf publishers together in one place that could be circulated. Definitely worth trying. To work, I think someone would actually have to take ownership of this and run it like a zine complete with figuring out all involved costs, distribution members and soliciting the advertisers (publishers) who'll ultimately foot the bill for it. However, I'm not sure that this would be what I'd want for the Adept+ booth at GenCon (although I think it might be a great thing to hand out in general at the con).

What I'd like for the booth is really something fairly nice: well laid out pretty pamplet (I'm envisioning 8 1/2x11 folded on the long edge...whatever that's called) with just the indie games that are actually being SOLD at the booth with one page each (ideally 1 leaf front and back even a color page) in the pamplet, and then a couple of pages in the back listing the freebies that are available.

In otherwords something that can be freely passed out to milling masses that will let them know what's available and how much it costs with a few lines of text about the game and a cover shot. Short simple small enough to be dropped in a bag and flashy enough to get people to thumb through it at least once.

I don't know how the new GenCon management will handle things, but last year the convention threw away a vast majority of the fliers that I brought to promote Kayfabe. It wasn't a big deal considering I got all the copies for fre, but I'd be pretty upset if I paid $100 only to find out that the convention staff tossed most of the catalogs in the trash.

I understand why they did it, after all, they were making quite a bit of money charging to put your flyer in the swag bag they give out every year. however, I didn't say anything about that in this year's Exhibitor's packet, so maybe leaving out flyers/catalogs won't be a big deal this year.

Of course the easy solution to this is personally handing the catalogs to people, which personally bothers me. I hate it when people shove flyers in my face when I'm trying to browse.

,Matt G.

You certainly don't want to pile stacks of them around. That way lies the trash.

And don't just shove them in faces.

Instead, have a small stack at each table in the booth. There are also other booths I'm certain I could convince to have these catalogs in their booth for people to pick up.

When someone expresses an interest in a specific game, or even the entire booth, ask if they would like a demo. If they don't have time, ask if they would like a catalog. If you're selective in who you hand these out to you can get a lot more milage out of them.

philreed wrote:
I expected this. If I'm not wanted here just say so. Or, at least, post this in the catalog thread.

I do have a little experience in this sort of thing and was trying to use that to benifit my own personal projects (and since there is strength in numbers, the projects of others). The only way to expand is to market. And, these days, B&W sheets of paper don't work.

First off, sorry if I over-reacted. In the back of my mind I've been worried that I am not at all wanted here because I do not do anything related to "indie RPGs" and I'm feeling a bit like an outsider. I spend my day working on much larger projects with a lot more money involved than anything I do in the evening.

What I'm trying to do is build my own PDF projects. I honestly feel that there is great potential in PDF publishing and, as I gather data and experiment, I believe it's possible to run a successful PDF operation that pays one or two full-time employees.

Part of building at my day job is marketing. I've spearheaded many marketing projects and revamped and expanded some existing ones. What I'm doing now is trying to take that experience and use it to build something for myself and, as I've mentioned before, the best way to do that is with others.

I think it all comes down to a matter of goals and intentions. I may not fit anywhere into any of the groups I've tried to discuss a catalog project with.

Phil, I really like your idea. I think a nicely printed catalog of "indie games" would be awesome thing to have and I think it should be done at least yearly. Now, for marketing purposes, I also think it would be ideal to have for GenCon but it seems people aren't sure whether the investment is worth it.

So, in order to allay some people's fears, could you you tell us what a publisher could expect to see if they invested $25 in this thing (assuming a reasonable number of people got on board)?

H'm,

Let's see if I can get some creative leadership going.

First of all, the good things to remember. I very much appreciate Matt's post regarding goals and scale of the project(s) under discussion. I also appreciate Phil's point of view - and I never, never want to see anyone who wants to participate in the Forge agenda get shut out.

So let's see - I'm thinking that two separate flyer/catalogue things could get going, with very different purposes.

1) The basic Kinko's flyer with a neat picture on it (probably something that one of us already owns), lots of logos for game companies, and a short paragraph for each game. I'm thinking of something very much like two sheets folded in half and stapled along the spine, in pastel colors or maybe white with a solid black border/frame. Cheap, easy, and fun. The first page has a tight and spunky paragraph that makes us all sound tres cool in the most repulsively self-indulgent sense of the word "indie." These would be all over the place in and around the booth, stuffed into sales bags, etc (Did I mention that bags for sales are a must for this year?).

2) A good-looking spiff catalogue like Phil describes. My own innate risk-aversiveness (yes, I do have a little, a very little) suggests that a few hundred is probably the best bet, but it depends on print-cost breakpoint. The purpose here is solid impressive promotion, and I think these would probably do best to be awarded to people who participate in demos.

The real issue for the later is cost-effectiveness. They can't just be promotion-outlay, something has to come of it. Any more ideas about that?

Or any ideas about the specific mission of each of these projects that can help shape their content?

Best,
Ron

philreed wrote: In the back of my mind I've been worried that I am not at all wanted here because I do not do anything related to "indie RPGs" and I'm feeling a bit like an outsider. I spend my day working on much larger projects with a lot more money involved than anything I do in the evening.

Hey Ron, yeah, I think we're thinking along the same lines. I had a similiar thought a few msgs up about splitting the two ideas. I think the GenCon booth promo stuff needs to be cheap and disposable and just flashy enough to draw interest. But I think Phil's big ass catalog idea is definitely worthy of further investigation. I'm not completely sold on the cost to benefit of it but I'm definitely intrigued.

Perhaps a division of labor?

Phil, would you be willing to work up the catalog idea in a little more detail and present here the costs requirements time involved and how you envision it working?

Maybe Matt S. wants to coordinate putting together brochure flyer pages for the games that will actually be at the booth?

As an idea.

Sounds good to me, V-man. I was going to suggest the very same notion.

Phil, whaddya think? We can certainly help each other with the two products -- Fat Man and Little Boy, if you will.

I'll actually plan on doing just that -- I think it's a fine way to proceed. So, folks, count me as the guy to create the GenCon flyer, barring any real objections. I'll present some ideas, and naturally take some ideas from everyone.

For now, let's assume that this flyer for the booth will include anyone who's paid the $100 to sell at the con, as well as some space devoted to freebies. In other words, if you've got a game in ANY form coming out of the booth at the con, you'll be in the flyer.

The issue will be costs, which I'll make every effort to keep very low. However, I will gladly accept any donations for printing costs, anyone's outstanding art that can compliment the thing, and I may in the end seek a small fee ($5 or something) from everyone to help pay for the printing.

More later ...

I'll try and have a proposal tomorrow. Today's just too swamped with an office crisis (or 12).

Great!
Matt, thanks for stepping up. When you get to the point where you need something from us (copy, pics, whatever) I'll be keeping an eye out for your post.

Phil no worries. Whenever it works for you.

Thanks to everyone!

The catalogue design and production individuals shall now take the discussions to private email.

I'll look forward to the next round of discussion later - shall we say, in a month?

Best,
Ron

philreed wrote: I'm most interested in working on a catalog of products. I think this would benefit many of us.

philreed wrote: I'll try and have a proposal tomorrow. Today's just too swamped with an office crisis (or 12).

Just not very quickly. A lot's been going on lately that I wasn't expecting.